The bigger the truck, the greater the (misplaced?) concern about payload?

nickw

Adventurer
Something else to consider is that most people that buy mid-size or F-150 trucks probably don't know much of anything about payload, GVWR, GCWR, etc. Countless times I've had people wonder why their truck is sagging when they've loaded up the bed of the truck but haven't "exceeded the payload capacity of the bed." They think cargo = only in the bed. The sticker is pretty clear, but some people just care about the numbers. Or care about what the commercial said the max payload rating was. Or don't care at all. I'd wager quite a few more people that buy 3/4-ton and up trucks know at least a little more about weight ratings if they're planning on using it for towing/hauling and that's why they seem to care more than the mid-size folks.

Load up 650LB of people and there goes roughly half of the payload available with some mid-size trucks.

My Canyon started out with 1,212LB of payload capacity. I then built it up for overlanding/towing off-road, suspension work and frame stiffening was done. It still officially and legally only has 1,212LB of payload, and it handles that just great now and without my wife in the truck but with everything loaded and hitched up I'm roughly 25LB under GVWR and still have a bit of cushion with GAWRs. My wife doesn't weigh 25LB, so when it's a family trip it does end up going over the rated GVWR but is still under GAWRs since the GVWR isn't the sum of GAWRs here.

This is the smallest truck I've owned and from the start I've always worked to stay within the weight ratings because it's been pushing it at times. All this to say, knowing what I know and owning/doing what I have I really doubt your typical mid-size truck owner, or probably even "overlander" in general, has any clue about weight ratings and the clue they do have isn't enough to actually be useful since it's just one piece of the puzzle, so that clue ends up being misused and bad assumptions are made.

There will always be the "load 'er up until she's on the bumpstops" people in all classes of vehicles, though. :)
Well it still has 1212 of payload....it may handle a bit better with stiffer suspension and a stiffer frame, but that doesn't change the size of the brakes, output shafts, axles housings, etc.
 

stevo_pct

Well-known member
One thing that the "add airbags and you'll be fine" crowd often doesn't address is the axle rating. Maybe you can compensate for being over the GVWR by adding airbags, switching to Load E tires, and adding a leaf, upgrading shocks, whatever, but that does nothing to change the load on the axle. If you're over the rear axle weight rating (and many 1/2 trucks with truck bed campers are), the airbags don't help that and you're asking for trouble.

For me, it's not an issue about violating the holy sticker on the door, it's about abusing my truck. Why would I beat on my truck by overloading it? Some people might not mind but I need my vehicles to last so I stay within their design limits.

I have a 2019 F150 super crew with about 1600# of payload. I wanted to get a truck bed camper (FWC, Hallmark, or something like that), but there's no way I could stay under the GVWR. I also would be right up against or over the rear axle rating (3800# rear and 3550#). So on the Ford 1/2 tons, the GAWR is not much higher than the GVWR. I think the Tundra has a higher rear axle rating, but not by much (maybe 4200#).
 

nickw

Adventurer
One of the problems is that weight ratings for vehicles in the US can be quite arbitrary and a lot of the GVWRs are limited due to EPA/federal classifications that place vehicles in a class based on GVWR, this affects CAFE requirements as well as registration/taxes, etc. The difference between GVWR and the sum of GAWRs could be for any number of reasons that we just don't know about since GVWR takes into account power, braking, chassis/frame, etc. as well as the classifications I mentioned. Different countries have different systems/methods/requirements for determining weight ratings, and this is something that was brought up recently on another forum. A number of trucks are "global" with virtually no physical or mechanical differences. The perfect example of this is the Chevrolet Colorado (GMC Canyon) vs the Holden Colorado sold in Australia. Same chassis, same drivetrain. The Holden Colorado has a payload capacity ranging from 1007 to 1085kg or 2,220LB to 2,392LB. In the US the max payload of these trucks is around the 1,500LB mark with many of the higher, non-ZR2 trims having closer to 1,300LB. That's basically 1,000LB more for the Holden than what the trucks are rated for here in North America and I suspect that is mostly to do with regulations and classifications, not technical limitations with the truck itself.

But, we don't know for sure so all we can do is speculate and do our best to be safe and operate within the known limits.
I see this argument a lot, US vs ROW....but based on the numbers, the ROW rigs are being pushed deep into what is reasonable and factor of safety. When I see a Colorado with a light duty D44 and a 7.x" front diff + lighter duty drivetrain being rated for what some of the heavier optioned 3/4 Ton trucks are rated for with huge full float rear axles and big HD front axles it makes you think....

Here in the US we have faster speed limits in/around cities, many more mountains, etc.

I know for me, towing our old 20' Airstream with a 2019 Ranger, in the mountains, was a hair-raising experience and cooked the heck outta my brakes on one particular gravel road....never again.
 

nickw

Adventurer
Simple Answer

Most of us with HD trucks have seen the light with the smaller ones, and the issues that arise from being overloaded so we pay much more attention to it now so it doesnt happen again.

Myself personally, i had a 2014 Tundra with a FWC Hawk and fell into their "Just add airbags, you'll be fine bro" nonsense. I knew better, but had been a Yota guy my entire life.

In 50k mileage of usage, i went through 3 sets of rotors, 2 sets of control arm bushings, and 1 set of steering rack bushings. All due to being overweight.

Anyone trying to argue against the importance of weight ratings and that subscribes to the "Just add airbags you'll be fine bro" mentality is quickly added to my ignore list as trying to reason with them is the equivalent of banging my head into a wall.

As that nice lady once said on the internet "I aint got time Fo Dat"
I had a buddy in sim. situation, he had a nice early low mile 2000's Chevy 3500, single rear wheel, duramax, airbags with a big slide in camper + would occasionally tow a big boat with that setup...I asked him about his Payload/GAWR, he didn't know, but he was def. over.

He had nothing but problems with the rear axle and almost lost a rear wheel a couple times.

He upgraded to a Ram 5500 and said he should have done it sooner, zero issues, better handling and way more confident.
 

tacollie

Glamper
I had a buddy in sim. situation, he had a nice early low mile 2000's Chevy 3500, single rear wheel, duramax, airbags with a big slide in camper + would occasionally tow a big boat with that setup...I asked him about his Payload/GAWR, he didn't know, but he was def. over.
A new Chevy 3500 would have been a significant upgrade. My buddy has 01' F350 dually. My 19' SRW F250 carries 2500lbs in the bed better than his dually. 3/4 and up trucks have gotten really stout over the last decade.
 

DRAX

Active member
They are completely different numbers (GA vs GV)....if you payload is 1500 lbs, the truck is not designed to carry 1500 lbs over the front axle even though you would be within payload figures, hence your front GAWR # limiting that....same goes for back, they are not meant to be added together. It's to limit payload placement in the vehicle.

No, you missed my point. I wasn't talking about payload equaling ONE GAWR, I was talking about the GVWR not being the sum of GAWRs like is the case on some vehicles. GVWR (not payload capacity) is less than the sum of the axle ratings. Yes, it could be due to brakes (unlikely), suspension, etc. We don't know. That information is not provided by the manufacturer, thus why "only the lawyers know."

I know full well what the ratings mean and relate to.
 

nickw

Adventurer
No, you missed my point. I wasn't talking about payload equaling ONE GAWR, I was talking about the GVWR not being the sum of GAWRs like is the case on some vehicles. GVWR (not payload capacity) is less than the sum of the axle ratings. Yes, it could be due to brakes (unlikely), suspension, etc. We don't know. That information is not provided by the manufacturer, thus why "only the lawyers know."

I know full well what the ratings mean and relate to.
I was using an extreme example to illustrate the point of GAWR, adding them together gives a non-sensical value....using my example, you'd be under / at payload but you'd be over GAWR. Same goes for the back, the GAWR will likely limit you before payload is fully reached....it's their way of saying the axle is not designed for the weight you are putting on it regardless of the payload capacity of the rig.
 

DRAX

Active member
Pretty much every truck and SUV maxes out RAWR before reaching max gross weight when your hauling stuff or trailers. The bandaid weight distribution hitches can only lever so much by forcing the trailer and truck to act as a single stiff platform before you run into trailer axle rating issues, frame strength issues and thats only good on flat highway stuff. Cross through a steep driveway entrance and bang you can fold your trailer frame like a cheap starbucks straw.

My experience has been the opposite, GVWR is reached before RAWR is hit. The only exception to this would be if the tow vehicle had no additional cargo and only a driver and no WDH used (which are not bandaids, I'm not sure why people think WDH are only necessary with a bad tow vehicle and trailer combo, that is not the case) where the weight added to the rear axle when a trailer is hitched up is actually greater than just the tongue weight. Why? Weight transfer. If you hitch up a trailer with a 750LB tongue weight and don't use a WDH then the rear axle acts like a lever. The tongue weight removes weight from the front axle and that weight is transferred to the rear axle. A WDH helps prevent that weight transfer off the front axle and there's a reason why every manufacturer says when to use a WDH with a given vehicle.

Mid-size, half-ton, and 3/4-ton diesel trucks are most likely to run out of GVWR before RAWR. That's always been the case with me (and I've owned and towed with many trucks) and I've used a WDH with all of them when necessary, including a 3500 SRW diesel. Payload/GVWR is going to be the limiting factor *with a properly setup tow combination that includes a WDH when necessary*. If you exceed RAWR before GVWR when towing then you'll find that adding a WDH will actually make the towing experience much better.

I've scaled every combination of vehicles I've towed with, GVWR has always been easier to hit than RAWR.
 

DRAX

Active member
I was using an extreme example to illustrate the point of GAWR, adding them together gives a non-sensical value....using my example, you'd be under / at payload but you'd be over GAWR. Same goes for the back, the GAWR will likely limit you before payload is fully reached....it's their way of saying the axle is not designed for the weight you are putting on it regardless of the payload capacity of the rig.

That's not always going to be the case, some reasons are obvious and some aren't. Some vehicles DO have the GVWR = FAWR+RAWR. Some trucks have GVWR limited due to weight class. Many 3/4-ton trucks have no more than a 10,000LB GVWR for non-technical reasons.

So again, when there is a disparity between the numbers we can only speculate and make assumptions as to *why*. We simply do not know if the GVWR is less than the GAWRs due to a technical reason, legal reason, or weight classification. Which is why the only ones likely to know the answer are the lawyers for the manufacturer.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

Well-known member
I see this argument a lot, US vs ROW....but based on the numbers, the ROW rigs are being pushed deep into what is reasonable and factor of safety.

I think I've already mentioned this in this thread, but there is an alternative conclusion that you can draw from the data of comparing ROW to NA vehicles. For two identical vehicles, one NA and one ROW, to have different ratings in terms of capacity for weight, there are only two options:

1) The ROW rigs are being pushed into the safety factor beyond what NA rigs are as you suggest.
2) The NA rigs are under-rated and actually have higher capability than the ratings claim.


For 1), it seems reasonable, but when it comes to regulations, Australia makes California look positively libertarian. From what I read, Australia actually does fine people and impound vehicles if they are overweight, in addition to their other regulatory layers -- bullbars have to preserve airbag function, tires cannot stick out past fenders and are limited in overall size, etc. Caveat - I've never lived there, but this is what I read.

For 2), it is a bit interesting and I dare say suspicious that our mid-size trucks all stay within the 6000 lbs class as required by CAFE standards, almost irrespective of their componentry or ROW equivalents. Manufacturers need to hit a certain emissions target, based on the number of vehicles in a given class that they sell. So by ensuring our mid-size trucks stay in a given class, they are supporting their overall fleet emissions targets. If they went to a higher class, while payload and other things might increase, the emissions targets would not be met, thus resulting in them not being able to sell vehicles.

Candidly I have no idea which answer is the correct one. But, given that folks in Australia have been using "mid size" trucks in the trades and industry for decades, it suggests that perhaps option 2) above is more likely than option 1); if option 1) were to be true, I would expect that vehicle issues in Australia related to weight (so, safety and reliability) would vastly outstrip the same metrics in North America, but that does not appear to be the case, with 4.5 deaths per 100k in Australia as compared to 12.5 deaths per 100k in the USA. This is not a definitive statistic of course and there are other factors that contribute to these stats (like moose vs kangaroo strikes!) and there are likley other factors influencing the fatality rate, but I'd still expect Australia to have more accidents than they do if everyone is driving around an unsafe rig all the time, but in fact they are 21 in the world for least amount of accidents.

An additional perspective is that only recently have "Full sized" trucks made inroads in Australia, largely for the recreational market; mid-size trucks in NA are just "trucks" for most of the rest of the world, so going back to what I mentioned at the start of the last paragraph, they use these "mid-size" trucks extensively in trade and industry in ROW applications. If they were breaking down all the time or failing, I suspect that the HD-level trucks would be just as popular in Australia as they are here. You can get them, but they are not very popular, because the mid-sized trucks (with their much higher GVM ratings as compared to NA trucks) seem to get the job done for them just fine.

All of these perspectives together suggests that there is no obvious technical reason for a NA Colorado to have a 1,000 lbs payload gap as compared to the ROW Colorado, which further underscores that GVWR in North America seem to primarily be a result of regulatory frameworks, not an engineering/physics decision.

But it's all speculation - as @DRAX said, manufacturers don't provide us their info so only the lawyers (And probably engineers!) know for sure. So, I do what I can to enhance my truck's ability to carry it's load, but when loaded I still try to stay within design parameters from the factory. But, I also don't stress these days about being +/- 10% payload in my rig (a couple hundred pounds).
 

nickw

Adventurer
That's not always going to be the case, some reasons are obvious and some aren't. Some vehicles DO have the GVWR = FAWR+RAWR. Some trucks have GVWR limited due to weight class. Many 3/4-ton trucks have no more than a 10,000LB GVWR for non-technical reasons.

So again, when there is a disparity between the numbers we can only speculate and make assumptions as to *why*. We simply do not know if the GVWR is less than the GAWRs due to a technical reason, legal reason, or weight classification. Which is why the only ones likely to know the answer are the lawyers for the manufacturer.
I get it but I was using the example of your specific vehicle....adding the GAWR together (your "GAWRs") doesn't give a number that is in any way meaningful or relatable to GVWR or Payload....different metrics and different numbers.
 

rruff

Explorer
All of these perspectives together suggests that there is no obvious technical reason for a NA Colorado to have a 1,000 lbs payload gap as compared to the ROW Colorado, which further underscores that GVWR in North America seem to primarily be a result of regulatory frameworks, not an engineering/physics decision.

Maybe just semantics, but there is no regulation regarding GVWR for trucks for private use, so far as the law is concerned. The number is the manufacturer warranty and liability limit. In some other countries that number is the law however (you'll get a ticket if you are over), and it isn't surprising that the number is higher. Is the Colorado exactly the same, in tires, springs, etc? Another factor is that in most countries they use trucks almost exclusively as trucks (hauling, towing) rather than passenger cars. A 1,000 lb payload would be useless.

I didn't realize the driving fatality rate was so high in the US compared to most developed countries! Hitting animals is far down the list of accident causes though... and I don't see anything that would fit in the category of "overloading".


  1. Distracted Driving. Distracted drivers are the top cause of car accidents in the U.S. today.
  2. Speeding. Speed kills, and traveling above the speed limit is an easy way to cause a car accident.
  3. Drunk Driving. Driving under the influence of alcohol causes car accidents every day, even when they are one the top causes that can be avoided.
  4. Reckless Driving. Reckless driving is a moving violation in which a driver displays a disregard for the rules of the road
  5. Rain. Car accidents happen very often in the rain because water creates slick and dangerous surfaces for cars, trucks, and motorcycles
  6. Running Red Lights. Drivers that run red lights, run the risk of causing wrongful death because they often cause side-impact collisions at high speeds.
  7. Running Stop Signs. Each year, thousands of car accidents occur because one driver ran a stop sign. Many rollover accidents and side-impact car accidents result from drivers that run stop signs.
  8. Teenage Drivers. When teen drivers hit the roads they don’t always know what to do and that lack of experience ends up causing car accidents.
  9. Night Driving. Driving in the daylight can be hazardous, but driving at night nearly doubles the risk of a car accident occurring.
  10. Design Defects. Automobiles have hundreds of parts, and any of those defective parts can cause a serious car accident.
  11. Unsafe Lane Changes. When drivers don’t make safe lane changes properly, it often leads to a car accident.
  12. Wrong-Way Driving. When you go the wrong way, everyone is in danger because as you head towards a car accident.
  13. Improper Turns. The reason that we have stop lights, turn signals, and lanes designated for moving either right or left as opposed to straight is because when drivers ignore the rules of the road, car accidents are often the result.
  14. Tailgating. Many fatal car accidents have occurred when a motorist dangerously tailgated another driver at high speeds. You can prevent these car accidents by giving the car in front of you a one-car-length buffer for every 10 mph you drive.
  15. Driving Under the Influence of Drugs. It’s not only alcohol that is dangerous when mixed with drivers on the road. Drugs, both legal and illegal, can impair your ability to fully function as a driver.
  16. Ice. Ice is a major cause of car accidents for cities with cold weather climates.
  17. Snow. Like ice, cities with cold winters know all-too-well just how dangerous snow can be for commuters.
  18. Road Rage. By tailgating another driver in anger or speeding past another driver only to pull in front of them and brake, these road “ragers” cause many needless car accidents each year.
  19. Potholes. Drivers run the risk of losing control of their car or blowing out a tire when they drive over potholes.
  20. Drowsy Driving. Driver fatigue isn’t talked about a lot, but how well can we expect anyone to drive when they’re having trouble staying awake. Most of the car accidents caused by drowsy driving occur at night.
  21. Tire Blowouts. Tire blowouts can cause you to lose control of your vehicle, and they are especially dangerous for bigger automobiles like semi-trucks.
  22. Fog. Fog isn’t the most common weather occurrence, and that’s good news for car accidents statistics. Driving is a skill that requires the ability to see, but fog makes it extremely difficult to see sometimes more than a car length in front of you.
  23. Deadly Curves. Many motorists have lost control of their cars along a dangerous curve and lost their lives in a car accident.
  24. Animal Crossings. Wild animals will wade out into the street, and it’s up to you to make sure that you don’t get into a car accident with them.
  25. Street Racing. With turbo engines and nitrous oxide boosters, cars often reach very high speeds during a street race, making any resulting car accident much more dangerous and unlikely to yield any survivors.
 

nickw

Adventurer
I think I've already mentioned this in this thread, but there is an alternative conclusion that you can draw from the data of comparing ROW to NA vehicles. For two identical vehicles, one NA and one ROW, to have different ratings in terms of capacity for weight, there are only two options:

1) The ROW rigs are being pushed into the safety factor beyond what NA rigs are as you suggest.
2) The NA rigs are under-rated and actually have higher capability than the ratings claim.


For 1), it seems reasonable, but when it comes to regulations, Australia makes California look positively libertarian. From what I read, Australia actually does fine people and impound vehicles if they are overweight, in addition to their other regulatory layers -- bullbars have to preserve airbag function, tires cannot stick out past fenders and are limited in overall size, etc. Caveat - I've never lived there, but this is what I read.

For 2), it is a bit interesting and I dare say suspicious that our mid-size trucks all stay within the 6000 lbs class as required by CAFE standards, almost irrespective of their componentry or ROW equivalents. Manufacturers need to hit a certain emissions target, based on the number of vehicles in a given class that they sell. So by ensuring our mid-size trucks stay in a given class, they are supporting their overall fleet emissions targets. If they went to a higher class, while payload and other things might increase, the emissions targets would not be met, thus resulting in them not being able to sell vehicles.

Candidly I have no idea which answer is the correct one. But, given that folks in Australia have been using "mid size" trucks in the trades and industry for decades, it suggests that perhaps option 2) above is more likely than option 1); if option 1) were to be true, I would expect that vehicle issues in Australia related to weight (so, safety and reliability) would vastly outstrip the same metrics in North America, but that does not appear to be the case, with 4.5 deaths per 100k in Australia as compared to 12.5 deaths per 100k in the USA. This is not a definitive statistic of course and there are other factors that contribute to these stats (like moose vs kangaroo strikes!) and there are likley other factors influencing the fatality rate, but I'd still expect Australia to have more accidents than they do if everyone is driving around an unsafe rig all the time, but in fact they are 21 in the world for least amount of accidents.

An additional perspective is that only recently have "Full sized" trucks made inroads in Australia, largely for the recreational market; mid-size trucks in NA are just "trucks" for most of the rest of the world, so going back to what I mentioned at the start of the last paragraph, they use these "mid-size" trucks extensively in trade and industry in ROW applications. If they were breaking down all the time or failing, I suspect that the HD-level trucks would be just as popular in Australia as they are here. You can get them, but they are not very popular, because the mid-sized trucks (with their much higher GVM ratings as compared to NA trucks) seem to get the job done for them just fine.

All of these perspectives together suggests that there is no obvious technical reason for a NA Colorado to have a 1,000 lbs payload gap as compared to the ROW Colorado, which further underscores that GVWR in North America seem to primarily be a result of regulatory frameworks, not an engineering/physics decision.

But it's all speculation - as @DRAX said, manufacturers don't provide us their info so only the lawyers (And probably engineers!) know for sure. So, I do what I can to enhance my truck's ability to carry it's load, but when loaded I still try to stay within design parameters from the factory. But, I also don't stress these days about being +/- 10% payload in my rig (a couple hundred pounds).
The nuance with #1 is that the roads and use case in Aus *may* allow there to be a lower factor of safety, they don't have the mountain ranges and potential speeds we do. So with that said, if a person lived in Nebraska they may be safer to be at or over GVWR than if they lived the West. Obviously Manuf. are not going to dictate GVWR based on location so they use one size fits all.

We all know well that mid-size trucks with full size loads ain't gunna cut it here in WA/OR/ID, even though it's allowed in AUS. Can you imagine coming off a pass in CO with 2300+ pounds in the back of a Tacoma/Hilux!?
 

Forum statistics

Threads
188,036
Messages
2,901,456
Members
229,411
Latest member
IvaBru
Top