lostworldexpedition
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The ultimate Aussie expedition camper
- Thread starter graynomad
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graynomad
Photographer, traveller
Sorry, been a bit distracted of late, too many projects 
I could have gone either way re Fuso/LC, on the day there was a good LC for sale locally and no Canters, that's really all there was in it although I admit to an LC bias having had a few before. Also with LC there is no end of accessories available, not so I think with the Canter although I've not looked that close. Not that I need much, probably diff locks and a winch are the only thing I need to add on the LC, on a Canter I'd also have to add another fuel tank.
I use Sketchup,
http://www.sketchup.com/
The free version is pretty good, I would like some features in the pro version but the pro price is ~$500 so I'll pass. I wish that had a version in the middle for say $150, I'd pay for that.
I'm thinking of swapping to this
http://www.designspark.com/eng/page/mechanical?cm_mmc=au-email-_-newsletter-_-au-041113-201311-gn-_-713403
Also free and I think SolidWorks compatible but will read/write Sketchup files. This prog also handles STEP models which is important for my electronics CAD work, if not for that I doubt I'd think about changing from Sketchup, it's the first 3D CAD package I've found that doesn't need a 3-year tech course to operate.
I could have gone either way re Fuso/LC, on the day there was a good LC for sale locally and no Canters, that's really all there was in it although I admit to an LC bias having had a few before. Also with LC there is no end of accessories available, not so I think with the Canter although I've not looked that close. Not that I need much, probably diff locks and a winch are the only thing I need to add on the LC, on a Canter I'd also have to add another fuel tank.
I use Sketchup,
http://www.sketchup.com/
The free version is pretty good, I would like some features in the pro version but the pro price is ~$500 so I'll pass. I wish that had a version in the middle for say $150, I'd pay for that.
I'm thinking of swapping to this
http://www.designspark.com/eng/page/mechanical?cm_mmc=au-email-_-newsletter-_-au-041113-201311-gn-_-713403
Also free and I think SolidWorks compatible but will read/write Sketchup files. This prog also handles STEP models which is important for my electronics CAD work, if not for that I doubt I'd think about changing from Sketchup, it's the first 3D CAD package I've found that doesn't need a 3-year tech course to operate.
Ford Prefect
Expedition Leader
I use google Sketchup as well. I really like it a lot. It is a pretty interesting program to play with. I have not, however, been able to find any good trucks to use in the program, so I have tried to make my own, but they rarely come out right and they always take me a lot of time to build, so I just do not bother anymore. I know what the thing is going to go on after all...
Ford Prefect
Expedition Leader
hahaha, too funny.
SAME HERE!
thjakits
Rob,
unless you are really hot to get your fingers on composite - I think you should do a little calculating (weight): Composite vs. Alu-frame and plate (glued like WOT1/2), then spray in foam for insulation or glue in foam panels.
Composite is a "learning experience" just like welding - ....it NEVER looks good/right on the first try.
With the prices you mention - trial and error looks rather expensive!
Besides - trial composites ALWAYS end up heavy!
You already have a LOAD/ALL the experience on doing it the frame/plate way - you just needed to fine tune that one and I bet you make a lighter build with that!
Maybe even a steel frame instead of Alu!! Just use real thin profils - loads of stiffness will come from the glued on panels!!
'nough said!
Cheers,
thjakits
Last edited:
graynomad
Photographer, traveller
I am very inclined to agree thjakits, I can't (and won't) weld ali but obviously am quite happy working with steel.
I need to get out of my over-engineering mind set though, but I think I could get very light in steel with some form of cladding, not as light as a good composite job but whose to say I would do a good composite job
And I reckon I'd save maybe $5000 as well.All up if it costs me 1-200kgs over best practice maybe that's the price I have to pay.
There's also a lot less pressure using steel as I don't have to fork out $ and hope that me or the panel guys don't screw up in the CAD part. I just buy a stack of RHS and start sticking it together, get something wrong or just change my mind and I can fix it in a few hours, days at most but at almost no cost, and I have a lot more time than money.
Overland Hadley
on a journey
Since you have more time than money, steel sounds like the way to go. Or you could learn to weld aluminum
If you had more money than time, or the elusive excess of time and money, then maybe it would be a good time to play with composites.
Just my thoughts at the moment.
If you had more money than time, or the elusive excess of time and money, then maybe it would be a good time to play with composites.
Just my thoughts at the moment.
Ford Prefect
Expedition Leader
Why? Your tongue didn't say it, your fingers did, blame them!
Overland Hadley
on a journey
Last resort. :ylsmoke:
....no need to learn to weld alu (unless you like to do that)...
Alu is great, but tricky - way more so than most would believe!
a) Generally there is a load of homework to do, to find the right/proper alloy, ....and there are loads of them!
b) It is very easy to wear out alu - lots of stuff has a finite number of cycles before it breaks!
b1) If you want to stay below the stress level were you essentially have no limited number of load cycles you are getting heavy again!!
c) At the end Steel is still stronger than Alu for the same weight! [VERY few alloys are an exception and then VERY costly]
[There was a saying, that the big airplane companies would rather have built their planes out of steel, IF they could have gotten it THIN enough!! ....that was obviously BEFORE the composite revolution....]
I think, considering your background building stuff, and time on hand you would be best off, looking into every detail and see how you best could save weight with a steel frame construction and/or use honeycomb panels (you probably could make your own, fairly quickly and without too much of a learning curve...) or your good old alu cladding....
In my [limited] experience/opinion there is only a few things to watch:
1) Triangulation - EVERYWHERE!
2) Try to save weight - EVERYWHERE, but here comes the tricky part - you need to learn/find out, were it stops to make sense!
E.g. drilling/hole-sawing 2x2"-1/8th square-tube to save weight is probably overkill - the holesaws will cost you more than you can save in 20 years - besides you probably will be drilling some 10 years to get everything done!
However you might be able to buy/scrounch the proper material - hole-lightened poles.....
3) REAL composite! Too many folks think composite is plastic only - REAL composite is "using whatever fits the bill best" and "compose" it all together!
4) Use "Stressed Skin" where possible..... - if you keep glueing on your Alu-panels, might as well use them to carry some load! Even when not glued, but hinged/bolted/etc....!
5) CALCULATE your ACTUAL load carrying need! You will be surprised just how MUCH overkill you used in the past! Even if you double the result, it still may look flimsy, but is more than enough! [E.g. from my aviation background: a 1/2" bolt is enough to carry a 1145 kg load in shear with a x4 safety margin - well, it is a grade-10 equivalent bolt, but the price difference between the non-aviation grades is not much.... - if you look in non-aviation mechanical industry you will be shocked over the small size fasteners used!]
So - building lite is not impossible with steel, just a bit of work figuring it out!
Cheers,
thjakits
PS: You would know: If the glue you used for the alu-cladding is okay with PVC, you might want to try that for the frame-work! Make it so, you cna use it as a water storage in the process! If I remember right it is a real mess to try to un-glue it!
Alu is great, but tricky - way more so than most would believe!
a) Generally there is a load of homework to do, to find the right/proper alloy, ....and there are loads of them!
b) It is very easy to wear out alu - lots of stuff has a finite number of cycles before it breaks!
b1) If you want to stay below the stress level were you essentially have no limited number of load cycles you are getting heavy again!!
c) At the end Steel is still stronger than Alu for the same weight! [VERY few alloys are an exception and then VERY costly]
[There was a saying, that the big airplane companies would rather have built their planes out of steel, IF they could have gotten it THIN enough!! ....that was obviously BEFORE the composite revolution....]
I think, considering your background building stuff, and time on hand you would be best off, looking into every detail and see how you best could save weight with a steel frame construction and/or use honeycomb panels (you probably could make your own, fairly quickly and without too much of a learning curve...) or your good old alu cladding....
In my [limited] experience/opinion there is only a few things to watch:
1) Triangulation - EVERYWHERE!
2) Try to save weight - EVERYWHERE, but here comes the tricky part - you need to learn/find out, were it stops to make sense!
E.g. drilling/hole-sawing 2x2"-1/8th square-tube to save weight is probably overkill - the holesaws will cost you more than you can save in 20 years - besides you probably will be drilling some 10 years to get everything done!
However you might be able to buy/scrounch the proper material - hole-lightened poles.....
3) REAL composite! Too many folks think composite is plastic only - REAL composite is "using whatever fits the bill best" and "compose" it all together!
4) Use "Stressed Skin" where possible..... - if you keep glueing on your Alu-panels, might as well use them to carry some load! Even when not glued, but hinged/bolted/etc....!
5) CALCULATE your ACTUAL load carrying need! You will be surprised just how MUCH overkill you used in the past! Even if you double the result, it still may look flimsy, but is more than enough! [E.g. from my aviation background: a 1/2" bolt is enough to carry a 1145 kg load in shear with a x4 safety margin - well, it is a grade-10 equivalent bolt, but the price difference between the non-aviation grades is not much.... - if you look in non-aviation mechanical industry you will be shocked over the small size fasteners used!]
So - building lite is not impossible with steel, just a bit of work figuring it out!
Cheers,
thjakits
PS: You would know: If the glue you used for the alu-cladding is okay with PVC, you might want to try that for the frame-work! Make it so, you cna use it as a water storage in the process! If I remember right it is a real mess to try to un-glue it!
graynomad
Photographer, traveller
Hi thjakits
Thanks for all that input.
I always thought that steel was as good as or better that ali for the same weight, at least with the types of alloys I would be working with.
All in all I think I'm just a lot more comfortable using steel, and it means I can do things piecemeal and not have to buy $7000 of materials up front and then be unable to make many (or indeed any) changes as I get bright ideas.
I'm getting much better and will try to be very vigilant with this design.
One advantage I have this time is a 3D CAD package and this forum to run ideas past, in the past it's just been me and the welder.
)
I've have used PCV for water storage in the past, however because it's round it's a very inefficient method unless of course you have a nook or cranny that cannot be used for anything else. Of course the steel is hollow which can be good for storing engine oil and such, as it happens I'm already using some of the steel frame as piping to help pressurise the tool boxes underneath.
Thanks for all that input.
I always thought that steel was as good as or better that ali for the same weight, at least with the types of alloys I would be working with.
I was tending that way a few posts back, but I agree even more now.
All in all I think I'm just a lot more comfortable using steel, and it means I can do things piecemeal and not have to buy $7000 of materials up front and then be unable to make many (or indeed any) changes as I get bright ideas.
I actually have a DIY composite for the floors in Wot2, that has worked very well.
If you've read my previous build blogs (especially Wot 1) you will see that I have a BOE (Batchelor of Over Engineering). Like most lay people I do what looks about right then double it to be on the safe side. I also tend to ignore the support given by other structural members and the skin itself and make just about everything strong enough to do the whole job alone. Then add another 3 things that also could to the whole job.
I'm getting much better and will try to be very vigilant with this design.
One advantage I have this time is a 3D CAD package and this forum to run ideas past, in the past it's just been me and the welder.
Yes I can't see myself with a 3" hole saw, but I may have some of the subframe laser cut or buy a plasma cutter (good excuse to get a new tool
)Do you mean would the Sikaflex work on PVC. I would assume so but there is special solvent-based glue for PVC that would be better. You can separate PVC that's been glued with it but it's almost always easier to just replace as much pipe as you have to to fix the problem.
I've have used PCV for water storage in the past, however because it's round it's a very inefficient method unless of course you have a nook or cranny that cannot be used for anything else. Of course the steel is hollow which can be good for storing engine oil and such, as it happens I'm already using some of the steel frame as piping to help pressurise the tool boxes underneath.