The ultimate Aussie expedition camper
- Thread starter graynomad
- Start date
graynomad
Photographer, traveller
Thanks Geoff.
Yes it's exciting to be planning a new rig. This one will be totally different to the trucks, composite panels, carbon fibre, almost no steel, really small etc etc. I will have to learn some new tricks. That said the cost of the composite panels is killing me, probably $6-7000 or about 1/3rd the total cost of the build, I'm tempted to go back to my old ways but I calculate that using a steel frame and ali cladding will double the weight of the box and I only have 1300kgs payload to play with, heck in Wothahellizat Mk1 I had that much in water alone
To be honest sometimes I think I should just throw a fridge and mattress in the back and head off, but the plan is for this to (maybe) eventually replace the truck as our travelling house, and leave the truck on our land as a permanent house. So it makes sense to do this build while I'm still fit enough and have access to a workshop, neither may be the case in 5-10 years.
Anyway stay tuned, I'll post the 3-point mount and subframe design soon.
Yes it's exciting to be planning a new rig. This one will be totally different to the trucks, composite panels, carbon fibre, almost no steel, really small etc etc. I will have to learn some new tricks. That said the cost of the composite panels is killing me, probably $6-7000 or about 1/3rd the total cost of the build, I'm tempted to go back to my old ways but I calculate that using a steel frame and ali cladding will double the weight of the box and I only have 1300kgs payload to play with, heck in Wothahellizat Mk1 I had that much in water alone
To be honest sometimes I think I should just throw a fridge and mattress in the back and head off, but the plan is for this to (maybe) eventually replace the truck as our travelling house, and leave the truck on our land as a permanent house. So it makes sense to do this build while I'm still fit enough and have access to a workshop, neither may be the case in 5-10 years.
Anyway stay tuned, I'll post the 3-point mount and subframe design soon.
westyss
Explorer
I agree with this too, I guess you have been on here for a bit but welcome to the forum anyway. I am excited to watch this build too, I have really enjoyed reading your last two builds and have read them a few times each, they gave me the motivation to get mine done and I like your sense of humor too!
When I initially read the specs that you plan to put into this new rig I had a bit of a chuckle remembering all the steel you put into the other builds and no real need to have any regard for weight. I have to say though, it is very difficult to keep the weight down and it will be a challenge but I believe you will be up to the task and look forward to seeing more from you. Just get on it a bit faster for us so we can watch!
Yves
graynomad
Photographer, traveller
Thanks guys, glad I could help
In Mk1 I paid no heed to weight, in Mk2 I paid lip service to weight, in this one I'm going to try and get serious, who knows if I will succeed. Using composite materials with almost no steel is a real leap of faith for me, well out of my comfort zone that's for sure and I confess to thinking about returning to my old ways. Also the comp panels are SO expensive, watch this space I could still go back to a steel frame.
As for getting on with it, I think we just decided to delay starting until about next May. The delay will allow me to get the design nailed down better and to fit in with our friends who own the workshop. Also I'm finding it hard to leave my wallabies what will the little darlings do without me?
Note re the Mk2 build blog on my site, the photos were too small and I'm slowly updating the pages to show larger pics. I've done up to and including #11 so far.
In Mk1 I paid no heed to weight, in Mk2 I paid lip service to weight, in this one I'm going to try and get serious, who knows if I will succeed. Using composite materials with almost no steel is a real leap of faith for me, well out of my comfort zone that's for sure and I confess to thinking about returning to my old ways. Also the comp panels are SO expensive, watch this space I could still go back to a steel frame.
As for getting on with it, I think we just decided to delay starting until about next May. The delay will allow me to get the design nailed down better and to fit in with our friends who own the workshop. Also I'm finding it hard to leave my wallabies
what will the little darlings do without me?Note re the Mk2 build blog on my site, the photos were too small and I'm slowly updating the pages to show larger pics. I've done up to and including #11 so far.
I am embarking on a very similar project for Australia as well so will no doubt borrow some ideas from you. So thank you in advanced for that haha. Were you planning on having hot water? I also don't want gas at all since my vehicle is diesel. So I am planning on a diesel stove as you have listed but would also like hot water for showers.
As for construction I have a similar payload, I was planning on an aluminium frame with very thin aluminium sheet external and thin plywood internal with foam in between. But very interested to see what you come up with.
As for construction I have a similar payload, I was planning on an aluminium frame with very thin aluminium sheet external and thin plywood internal with foam in between. But very interested to see what you come up with.
graynomad
Photographer, traveller
We're not. We've had a HWS in the truck for 12 years or so and hardly ever use it, while a hot shower is nice we seldom have the water to spare and in the Cruiser we'll have even less. A kettle is enough for a sparrow wash and a submersible pump with a bucket of warm water is plenty for a shower.
That leaves dish washing and the kettle does for that as well.
So the Cruiser will not have hot water, that saves probably $1000 (for a gas HWS) and a huge amount of space. You can get the heat-exchange units that work off the motor, I've not used them but would assume they aren't too good if you are camped for long periods without running the motor.
All that said if you really want a HWS for showers I'd look into the diesel units that also do your heating, be prepared to spend a lot though, maybe $2000 or more, I haven't really looked at them but the cooker is $1800 so the HWS would not be cheaper I feel. Maybe one of those heat-exchange types is a good compromise.
Can you weld ali? Or planning to rivet it together.
I know ali is successfully used by professional builders but it's out of my expertise and I would worry about work hardening.
I may still do something similar, I love the idea of the composite panels but as I have mentioned several time the cost is astronomical. The only real problem I see with using thin caravan-style cladding is it will look like crap after a few years because every tree will score it. Personally I love 5-bar checker plate and I would be tempted to use that again, but 1.6mm this time rather than the 2mm I've used before. However a steel and ali construction will add a lot of weight and I'm trying to make this as light as possible. After all if I save 100kgs on the body I can carry another 100ltrs of water and last away from town for another 2 weeks.
OTOH I can probably save $5000 by not using composite panels, that pays for a winch and dual lockers.
What about a ply-foam-ply sandwich around a metal frame? I did that for the floor in my current truck and it works well for that. Also ply would be easy to patch if damaged if you weren't too precious about how it looked
I really have to put some thought into this because it does affect the design quite a bit.
Where are you and what vehicle are you using?
I am using it to tow an off road race car and camp there as well as overland travel so a shower is very important to me because we get coated in dust and mud. However when I will be using it most I can get water and diesel easily.
Possibly a good option for me.
Yes they are very expensive but I'm also not sure how big it is and complicated to setup.
Over the Christmas holidays will be working at Dads business and being taught TIG. Should get plenty of practice.
Have a look at the epoxy glues available. Some of them are ridiculously strong. Also qubelok I think its called could work with the right design.
My construction of aluminium sheet, if riveted on, would be relatively simple to replace panels. Is it better to replace panels every few years or add a few hundred kgs to weight? I am guessing replacing a panel in a composite design with no frame would be challenging also and could be hard to patch with limited materials.
I would prefer metal on the outside. Mine will regularly be going into the bush and probably scrub up against trees somewhat and I'd fear ply would be very easy to puncture.What about a ply-foam-ply sandwich around a metal frame? I did that for the floor in my current truck and it works well for that. Also ply would be easy to patch if damaged if you weren't too precious about how it looked
I'm in Gippsland in Victoria and have a 1983 Jeep J10. I think there's a link in my signature to a blog.
The only thing I can think of which could cause issues, though I may be wrong, is mounting steel to aluminium causes a chemical reaction. This is from memory only but it limits using steel on an aluminium frame somewhat. The main thing I'm struggling with right now in the design is how much frame I need. I'm basically just guessing whether it will be strong enough or not. I'm planning on using a canvas pop up though so it does reduce the strength and complexity a lot. However typical me adding more work I am making the passenger side wall fold down for a bed to fit everything in. The canvas does reduce the weight a lot as well and allows me to keep the camper to roof height to avoid damage to it. I should also be able to easily lift the roof up myself.
Anyway some things to think about and I'm guessing we will probably end up with fairly similar builds.
Cheers.
Evening Rob,
First off it's great to see you on here. I read through your build's a couple of years ago and loved some of the detailing. The shutters/fly screens always impressed me because I know how much time details like that can suck. I am looking forward to seeing what your interpretation of a small hard sided camper is.
I have great plans to build a small slide in, hard sided pop top camper. It may be a while before the plans become reality! Anyway while my daughters do homework and such, I draw plans and compare products. And surf the web for idea's! I'd actually sworn off the idea of building my own, until I saw Sonke's, and more lately Yves's impressive build.
Anyway I live on a small island a bit to your right, and down a bit. If you think composite panels are expensive in the land of Oz, try pricing them up in my island paradise! I go through 'phase's', with construction process ideas. Steel RHS frame, alloy skin, easy to build your self, lower cost, but heavier, lots of thermal bridging, different expansion rates, and lots of man hours. A variety of composite panel ideas, home made, commercial stuff. Saving in man hours but all very expensive, and even more so for the better insulating ones. One method I'm wondering about now is an alloy 'skin' similar to in the photo's, that you could spray inside with polyurethane insulation (available in 'spray your own' boxes, much better insulation value than polystyrene for example) then trim, and line with FRP or ply or?
I don't know much about work hardening of alloy. I wonder how much the modern (Sikaflex) adhesives could be used to glue, instead of weld, some of the panels. In areas such as doors, shutters, exterior compartment doors, etc, I personally think it would be easier to fabricate the necessary support details out of alloy, than wood/fiberglass. Like I said, personally. I can DC tig, never tired AC with alloy, so maybe I'd change my tune! Thought I'd just chip in now to add this option to your mix!
One thing raised recently was exterior damage, branch's dragging etc. Again, it's all compromise. I guess some fancy fiberglass panel might be tougher, but I figure some bog, and a lic of paint would fix any major scratch's.
Where I live, with my skill base I kinda like this option. Some expensive outwork (folding major panels), but a lot of work in house. Minimize thermal bridging issues, combined with high value (affordable) insulation. Compromise on weight, lighter than steel/alloy, heavier than composite panel. Etc.
Small thread hijack. Last year we had a young Swiss family come to stay a couple of times (as they headed South and North). I gave them your name as a contact as they headed into Oz. Someone who had 'been there' as it were. Apparently Jan, Liliane, and Lola caught up with you somewhere on the East coast. Funnily enough my daughter has ended up in Switzerland this year and has ended up on their doorstep on several occasions so far!
As stated, looking forward to see your 'interpretation'
First off it's great to see you on here. I read through your build's a couple of years ago and loved some of the detailing. The shutters/fly screens always impressed me because I know how much time details like that can suck. I am looking forward to seeing what your interpretation of a small hard sided camper is.
I have great plans to build a small slide in, hard sided pop top camper. It may be a while before the plans become reality! Anyway while my daughters do homework and such, I draw plans and compare products. And surf the web for idea's! I'd actually sworn off the idea of building my own, until I saw Sonke's, and more lately Yves's impressive build.
Anyway I live on a small island a bit to your right, and down a bit. If you think composite panels are expensive in the land of Oz, try pricing them up in my island paradise! I go through 'phase's', with construction process ideas. Steel RHS frame, alloy skin, easy to build your self, lower cost, but heavier, lots of thermal bridging, different expansion rates, and lots of man hours. A variety of composite panel ideas, home made, commercial stuff. Saving in man hours but all very expensive, and even more so for the better insulating ones. One method I'm wondering about now is an alloy 'skin' similar to in the photo's, that you could spray inside with polyurethane insulation (available in 'spray your own' boxes, much better insulation value than polystyrene for example) then trim, and line with FRP or ply or?
I don't know much about work hardening of alloy. I wonder how much the modern (Sikaflex) adhesives could be used to glue, instead of weld, some of the panels. In areas such as doors, shutters, exterior compartment doors, etc, I personally think it would be easier to fabricate the necessary support details out of alloy, than wood/fiberglass. Like I said, personally. I can DC tig, never tired AC with alloy, so maybe I'd change my tune! Thought I'd just chip in now to add this option to your mix!
One thing raised recently was exterior damage, branch's dragging etc. Again, it's all compromise. I guess some fancy fiberglass panel might be tougher, but I figure some bog, and a lic of paint would fix any major scratch's.
Where I live, with my skill base I kinda like this option. Some expensive outwork (folding major panels), but a lot of work in house. Minimize thermal bridging issues, combined with high value (affordable) insulation. Compromise on weight, lighter than steel/alloy, heavier than composite panel. Etc.
Small thread hijack. Last year we had a young Swiss family come to stay a couple of times (as they headed South and North). I gave them your name as a contact as they headed into Oz. Someone who had 'been there' as it were. Apparently Jan, Liliane, and Lola caught up with you somewhere on the East coast. Funnily enough my daughter has ended up in Switzerland this year and has ended up on their doorstep on several occasions so far!
As stated, looking forward to see your 'interpretation'
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We're not. We've had a HWS in the truck for 12 years or so and hardly ever use it, while a hot shower is nice we seldom have the water to spare and in the Cruiser we'll have even less. A kettle is enough for a sparrow wash and a submersible pump with a bucket of warm water is plenty for a shower.
That leaves dish washing and the kettle does for that as well.
So the Cruiser will not have hot water, that saves probably $1000 (for a gas HWS) and a huge amount of space. You can get the heat-exchange units that work off the motor, I've not used them but would assume they aren't too good if you are camped for long periods without running the motor.
All that said if you really want a HWS for showers I'd look into the diesel units that also do your heating, be prepared to spend a lot though, maybe $2000 or more, I haven't really looked at them but the cooker is $1800 so the HWS would not be cheaper I feel. Maybe one of those heat-exchange types is a good compromise.
Can you weld ali? Or planning to rivet it together.
I know ali is successfully used by professional builders but it's out of my expertise and I would worry about work hardening.
I may still do something similar, I love the idea of the composite panels but as I have mentioned several time the cost is astronomical. The only real problem I see with using thin caravan-style cladding is it will look like crap after a few years because every tree will score it. Personally I love 5-bar checker plate and I would be tempted to use that again, but 1.6mm this time rather than the 2mm I've used before. However a steel and ali construction will add a lot of weight and I'm trying to make this as light as possible. After all if I save 100kgs on the body I can carry another 100ltrs of water and last away from town for another 2 weeks.
OTOH I can probably save $5000 by not using composite panels, that pays for a winch and dual lockers.
What about a ply-foam-ply sandwich around a metal frame? I did that for the floor in my current truck and it works well for that. Also ply would be easy to patch if damaged if you weren't too precious about how it looked
I really have to put some thought into this because it does affect the design quite a bit.
Where are you and what vehicle are you using?
I have bought a mig welder with a spool gun for welding alloy, i was very surprised how easy and quick it is to weld with one of these, my idea is to use alloy checker plate 1.6mm, weld the sheets together and add alloy ribs down the inside like an upside down boat, line it with foam and add wood paneling inside, the plan is to make a few test panels first and see what the result is.
graynomad
Photographer, traveller
Is it just me or has the forum been dead for 2 days? I've not been able to view a single post.
As they say in the classics, "Get it right or get it done". I may have to lower my sights a little, or wait until I have the money.
I don't remember the Swiss family, maybe they just said hello and asked the 3 standard questions, if so they would have been one of 10 people that day Any more contact and I would have remembered I think, but don't tell them that in case we camped together for a week
a) They probably won't be flat, the last batch I bought (for Wot Mk2) was 2mm and quite bowed, even though it's supported in several places you can see the bowing in certain light.
See the panels on the shutter over the cab. I imagine if you are trying to make a monocoque box this would be very hard to get right.
b) If you get Chinese plate you will never line up the patterns, every sheet is different, I noticed this in an engineering shop and they confirmed that they only use Chinese panels on jobs that don't require the pattern to match. On a very small box like we're talking about that may not matter but bear it in mind.
Yes I love them both, I must re-read the threads as you pick up more stuff each time.
Tasmania?...oh you mean New Zealand.
Yeah it's a real pain. One day it's "I don't care, it has to be the best", next day "how much? holy cr*p I'll do it myself".
Yes PU is better than PS. I wonder how much wastage there would be because I assume you'd have to put gobs in then cut it back.
Given a decent surface area glue would be better I'd say, but that photo seems to have but joins and therefore no surface area. If there was nice large returns on every corner I reckon it would work well, just not look as good.
That's a large part of it, if I do this in a mate's workshop I can handle large panels as you would if using composite materials, if I do it at home (in the bush) I can't and all of a sudden 8x4 sheets of ply look pretty good.
I know we said PS is not as good as PU but I have a mate who got ALL his insulation for nothing by going around the battery shops and asking for their old packaging.
See above re wanting to to the best then seeing the cost, if you aren't rich everything is a compromise. I have another mate who did the entire camper for $5000 as a slideon, using steel, ply and fibre glass. It wasn't particularly light but it's finished and he's using it.
As they say in the classics, "Get it right or get it done". I may have to lower my sights a little, or wait until I have the money.
I don't remember the Swiss family, maybe they just said hello and asked the 3 standard questions, if so they would have been one of 10 people that day
Any more contact and I would have remembered I think, but don't tell them that in case we camped together for a week I've heard both ways, everything from easy to a nightmare.
Two things to look out for.
a) They probably won't be flat, the last batch I bought (for Wot Mk2) was 2mm and quite bowed, even though it's supported in several places you can see the bowing in certain light.
See the panels on the shutter over the cab. I imagine if you are trying to make a monocoque box this would be very hard to get right.
b) If you get Chinese plate you will never line up the patterns, every sheet is different, I noticed this in an engineering shop and they confirmed that they only use Chinese panels on jobs that don't require the pattern to match. On a very small box like we're talking about that may not matter but bear it in mind.
If the ribs are glued and there are enough of them that should fix any bowing I would say. Don't weld them as I'm sure it will ruin the outside surface.
What's the cheapest composite you've found so far if you don't mind me asking. Only quote I've received so far was $365 plus gst per metre with 2440mm width. For my use which doesn't go above my utes roofline I'd need 6.7m. Which works out around $2700. This comes to a grand total weight of 110kg for the bare box. I could imagine in your situation you would need at least an extra 3 metres which would weight approx. 160kg and cost around $4000.
Have you considered making the composite yourself? After some research it is possible to buy honeycomb material and either fiberglass or carbon fibre and lay it yourself. The finish is not dead flat or smooth but strength would be comparable. I'll continue to research it and let you know if I find anything worthwhile. I'll also contact an Australian I know with a factory in china and see what is available there. Might be able to get some put in the next container he sends over.
Have you considered making the composite yourself? After some research it is possible to buy honeycomb material and either fiberglass or carbon fibre and lay it yourself. The finish is not dead flat or smooth but strength would be comparable. I'll continue to research it and let you know if I find anything worthwhile. I'll also contact an Australian I know with a factory in china and see what is available there. Might be able to get some put in the next container he sends over.
There is a company in Yandina, Qld who supply what you are looking for. Take a look at their site
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...=FdOfCex1BMknaPrvaGX4WQ&bvm=bv.55980276,d.dGI
Regards
Rick
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...=FdOfCex1BMknaPrvaGX4WQ&bvm=bv.55980276,d.dGI
Regards
Rick
graynomad
Photographer, traveller
I've only looked at two materials, Monopan and Vanglass. Monopan is cheaper but it provides no insulation so you have to add that and then lining.
Vanglass is the stuff miminut2 links to.
I'm looking at about 4 metres and that includes going over the cab.
Vanglass is the stuff miminut2 links to.
Yikes, how long is your tray?
I'm looking at about 4 metres and that includes going over the cab.
Not really, I have enough to do but mostly I'd be worried about doing it right and having de-lamination problems down the track.
Now that would be interesting.