Thoughts on Transplants- 300Tdi vs. 3.9 v8

[lwg]

I have a 96 D1 with 86k and the block has a scored cylinder. My dilema is I can probably buy and import the stuff to convert it to tdi for about the same as a decent "known" used 4.6

This is becoming increasingly true as good 4.6 bits are getting harder and harder to find at reasonable prices. Since we have the labor for the conversion in house I expect my TD5 conversion to costs about the same as a built 4.6L, hopefully yeilding much better mileage and power at altitude (we're at 4K feet).

 

[DividingCreek]

I'm sure you already know this but td5s rock.

 

[Dendy Jarrett]

Well, as you all (that know me) - know, I am a fan of the 300 Tdi, I just wanted to pose the question. Again, Lt. Fuzz knows- issues with diesels running extremely hot and needing a much larger cooling system.
Dale, you have experienced (as you mention) the sluggish power when towing.
There is a guy on D-90 right now that has been working for 4 weeks to get his newly transplanted 300 Tdi to even run.
I knew Rover V8s run hot, but never had a clue that 300 Tdis had this issue.

I know when I had the Classic, that the radiator shop that does all the recores for Land Rover Nashville, explained to me that the tubing in the Radiators for Discovery I's and Classics were too small a diameter to keep the engine adequately cooled. When they rebuilt the radiator in the Classic, they raised the tube diameter in the radiator, and that truck ran half the temp it ran before the radiator rebuild. (and yes, it had no problem producing plenty of heat for the heater).

So, all of this was posed just to find opinions and points of view regarding the Petrol vs. Diesel.

The answers thus far- interesting to say the least. So far, the "ego cool" quotient is reigning high.

D

 

[dcwhybrew]

[LQUOTE=DividingCreek;926419]I'm sure you already know this but td5s rock.[/QUOTE]

LOL...quit being a tease Doug!

Hey, can you post up that pic/video of the 300 running with a hole in it? Or link o it? I'd like to see that.

 

[Rocket Ship]

Again, Lt. Fuzz knows- issues with diesels running extremely hot and needing a much larger cooling system.

I think it's more accurate to say that large, inefficient diesels run extremely hot. Small, efficient diesels have trouble making enough heat to warm the interior of the car. Some vehicles in Europe have small auxiliary diesel fired heaters to make heat in the winter.

'm sure you already know this but td5s rock.

I'm curious to know your thinking on this. I'm happy with the 300 in my 110, and am planning on eventually fitting one into my D2. The Td5 is significantly more work, so what advantages does it offer, besides easy and cheap power upgrades? What is repair-ability like when off the beaten path? The Td5 in the D2 has a dual-mass flywheel which I would not fit in a vehicle used off-road for a number of reasons. I understand there are single mass flywheels available on the market which many are opting for due to failures of the original.

 

[DividingCreek]

The 300 that ran hot in my example was one where some one installed an electric fan and screwed it up to run backwards. Tdi's run cold as cucumbers. The point was a guy who bought the truck that way was able to fix it and get back on the road easier and faster than would have been the case with a v8.
Parts aren't an issue.
Most don't even need fans if kept moving. In winter I have to drive the 300 several miles under load to get heat. Letting it idle in the driveway does nothing but waste fuel.

 

[Snagger]

I think it's more accurate to say that large, inefficient diesels run extremely hot. Small, efficient diesels have trouble making enough heat to warm the interior of the car. Some vehicles in Europe have small auxiliary diesel fired heaters to make heat in the winter.



I'm curious to know your thinking on this. I'm happy with the 300 in my 110, and am planning on eventually fitting one into my D2. The Td5 is significantly more work, so what advantages does it offer, besides easy and cheap power upgrades? What is repair-ability like when off the beaten path? The Td5 in the D2 has a dual-mass flywheel which I would not fit in a vehicle used off-road for a number of reasons. I understand there are single mass flywheels available on the market which many are opting for due to failures of the original.

Tdis are considered to be cool running, and over here there are plenty of idiots telling others to remove the fan or replace it with an electric fan, but the viscous units do a great job. The heater in my RRC works brilliantly from the Tdi (even though the viscous unit is seized and the fan turning at full effect), the Defender heater in my 109 struggling by comparison with a Tdi in the engine bay - it's the heater, not the engine which is the problem here -even though I had to replace the viscous fan with an electric unit on the 109 because the Discovery 200Tdi engine's fan is too low and close to the cross member and brake lines in a 109 conversion. A Defender 200Tdi has a different front end (just the timing case and water pump) with a higher mounted fan, so would have been better, but would also have cost five times more to buy as they are so in demand for retro-fits here. So, Tdis run at a reasonable temperature - warm enough that a decent heater will work well, not so hot that they struggle unless the vehicle is at very low speed and high work load for protracted periods and has had its fan removed.

The TD5 has more performance but is less refined than the 300Tdi, which is why the DII needed a dual mass flywheel (prone to failure, so LR sell a retro-fit solid flywheel and conventional clutch plate kit) and mass damper on the back of the LT230 transfer box. It also uses more fuel than the Tdi. The ECU has been known to cause some issues, mainly the oil migration in the harness or submersion in vehicles where the unit had not been water proofed or moved by the owner, but also allows easier tuning. Defender TD5s tend to be in good condition, but DII TD5 engines suffer much more frequent warped manifolds and sheared studs because the turbo already runs a higher and longer boost than the Defender (I believe the hardware is identical and that it's just an ECU setting). Get a chipped or remapped DII engine and you're almost guaranteed to have manifold trouble sooner or later.

The TD5 is an engine that runs very cool. DIIs have Webasto auxiliary heaters tucked into the front bumper to make the heater effective (TD4 Freelanders have the same thing too). Defenders didn't get this addition and their heaters are very ineffective. They also have a fuel heat exchanger to cool the fuel on its way back to the tank due to the high pressures in the injection system. Its common rail injection system is not tolerant of low quality diesel abd will not accept vegoil or other substitutes.

For what it's worth, diesels are most certainly not viewed as cool over here - they're practical and comparatively economical, with diesel costing a little more than petrol but going that much further, but everyone loves the V8 powered Land Rovers for their performance and gorgeous sound. The clatter and vibration of a diesel may suit a Defender, but it's unpleasant and out of place on a Discovery or RR. Don't make the decision based on what is perceived as "cool" - that sort of vanity is in itself very "uncool"! Make the decision based on vehicle requirements and cost.

 

[DoKarider16]

I currently own a 93 RRC with a 300tdi in it. It was done by one of the top Rover Shops in Portland Oregon and was actually the owners personal rig. I probably paid about twice as much for the Rover because of the TDI but our whole family loves it. The range is one of the biggest things, but I also enjoy the sound and feel of the diesel. It is great to be able to get 22-24mpg with the roof top tent and bikes on the back. I have never seen the 30mpg that people throw around as possible numbers. I would guess with the roof rack off I could maybe see 27mpg. The diesel being more than gas argument doesn't really hold water since you need to run super in the rover v8's and in our neck of the woods super and diesel is usually pretty close in price. Power wise, it does really well, but is not quite as peppy as the 3.9. Some patience in hills is needed but I am not the most patient person and it has not been hard to live with.

I have seen some Hot Rod shows about putting the Chevy LS1's into rock crawlers and talking about mid 20's for mileage. Something like that would be very interesting. I also think one of the earlier VW TDI motors would be an interesting idea as they can put out 140hp with almost double that in torque and would weigh at least half of what the 300tdi does.

The biggest draw to the tdi for me is that it actually came in this model so the conversion is not some big Frankenkit developed in someones garage. The power is not overwhelming but acceptable and the mileage is really unheard of in a comparably priced, full size, off road capable vehicle.

If I had a broken Rover, I would do it in a heart beat. If I had a good running V8, I don't think it would be worth the time, money and hassle.

hope this helps
Craig

 

[Snagger]

My RRC manages well over 30mpg, usually about 35, on long runs. That is Imperial gallons, not US gallons, though, and someone said that diesel in the UK is of higher quality, giving better economy. I also don't have any exterior accessories other than running boards and have a manual (R380) gear box. That's running on 235/70 BFG ATKOs - 205 road tyres would return better mpg, as does using the premium diesel (about 6p/litre dearer, but works out the best part of 5% more mpg than when I use regular Shell or BP diesel and 10% compared to supermarket brand diesel).

 

[Wander]

Interesting thread Dendy, I see this issue down the road for me as well.

I am glad that sbc 350's where mentioned, I've wondered why that doesn't come up more often. Is that a difficult conversion in which it will just never totally work or not? Are there other diesel options that can be swapped in sucessfully?

 

[LtFuzz]

From what I'm gathering here (and from other discussions I've seen or had in the past), and with all things being equal -- i.e. all vehicles on same fuel type at same altitude with the same gallon type -- the diesel application doesn't seem to affect fuel economy as much as the body type and level of build.

Lightly built Defenders seem to average mid to high 20 mpg with 200/300/TD5, built and loaded drops them down into mid 20s. Ditto for Discos/RRCs with same motors with slightly more drop.

The Cummins 4B guys on 4BTswaps.com have gotten as high as 35 mpg on 33"s, but with 3.00 or 3.25 gears. They drop right back down into the low to mid 20s using more conventional 4x4 ratios. 6.2 guys are getting low 20s and the Isuzu 4BD guys a little more than that. I haven't seen a 6.5 swap into a Rover but I imagine it would also be similar. 2.8 TGV diesel also firmly in the mid 20s.

I don't have a huge sampling pool, and most of it is anecdotal (as most mpg figures are) -- but my impression is that not matter what the frame, i.e. D90/110, D1, DII or RRC with a mild to moderate build/load (somewhere between a CT truck and a locked brute on 33"s) you're going to plop pretty reliably between 21-25 mpg no matter the motor you choose. Defenders appear to be slightly more frugal in their consumption but certainly not profoundly so when carrying a similar load.

Interesting because a lot of these motors vary considerably in terms of weight, with the 200/300s being much lighter than a 4B, 4BD or 6.2. Yet once you pull them out of their very narrow peak efficiency zone (in terms of power:weight) by building them, you've basically removed any fuel economy advantage and leveled the playing field completely. And ultimately the discussion becomes academic when you're comparing 22 mpg to 24 mpg -- but the point underneath all of this is the importance of the cost per mile ratio, particularly the cost of the original purchase (or conversion). If you want a diesel Land Rover and plan to build it to an average of the builds seen on this forum (i.e. basic armor, bumper(s), roof rack, 31-32" ATs, a locker or two and a couple hundred pounds worth of accessories inside) you could pick any of the motors above and achieve roughly the same fuel economy.

 

[KenR]

I've already decided on a SBC when the 4.0L dies in my DII. Parts are cheap, mileage and power are better and they're more reliable than the LR engine. I just don't see an acceptable payback with the diesel, as much as I wish it were so.

I have to research adapter kits, but plan on ordering a very mild long block right out of the GM Performance Parts book when the day comes. The only downside that I can see is some view conversions like this very critically when it comes to re-sale - I'm one that would definitely be looking veerrrry closely at who did the conversion and how well it was done. Then again, I don't really plan on selling this rig. Also, if you ever planned on registering the car in California you could have trouble with swaps and conversions.

 

[Wander]

That is true about resale, I recall a very nice looking CT clone that was built from an XD (I think) but it has a 4.3 vortec V6 under the bonnet. Good engine for sure but he was having a time selling it and taking all kinds of cheap shots. I don't know how it worked out for him.

 

[leeawalden]

there is a guy up here that is putting a TD5 into an 04 DII. Should be an awesome setup.

 

[dcwhybrew]

...I am glad that sbc 350's where mentioned, I've wondered why that doesn't come up more often. Is that a difficult conversion in which it will just never totally work or not? Are there other diesel options that can be swapped in sucessfully?

Just my opinion, but I believe the answer is (among the Rover crowd) SBC 350s arent as sexy or interesting as 350s. SBC 350s are kind of "vanilla" here in the US. "they're every where/'everyone' has them." I think the diesel trend for rovers in the US started because Rover owners are enamored with ROW options. Rovers run on small diesel engines everywhere else, and over here they're unique. I think that's why everyone is talking about them, planning/doing the conversions.

As stated previously, once you run the performance and cost numbers, the diesel conversion really doesnt make sense on paper. It's just a cool or novel thing to do. That doesnt mean they dont work, I'm just saying the conversions don't justify themselves. If someone has the money, go for it and enjoy it (i certainly enjoy reading the treads and results, applauding the efforts). But lets not make the conversions into something they aren't.