This should help you.
http://www.marks4wd.com/products/engine-trans-conversions/RR-Chevy-Holden-LS1-LS2-LS3-V8.html
I think you have to have a new fuel injection system too????
Thoughts on Transplants- 300Tdi vs. 3.9 v8
- Thread starter Dendy Jarrett
- Start date
http://www.marks4wd.com/products/engine-trans-conversions/RR-Chevy-Holden-LS1-LS2-LS3-V8.html
I think you have to have a new fuel injection system too????
How is he going to get it registered since that vehicle isnt old enough to be exempt? I hope they dont live in one of the counties that has emission testing.
leeawalden
Adventurer
the truck is going back to WV after the TD5 goes in.
edit: however, TN is the only state I've ever lived in that you have to go through emissions...stupid. And its not even every county in the state.
edit: however, TN is the only state I've ever lived in that you have to go through emissions...stupid. And its not even every county in the state.
Last edited:
Rocket Ship
Banned
How is a SBC conversion using a crate motor going to be cheaper than a 300tdi swap? You can get a 300tdi, fully rebuilt, with a swap kit for about $5000. The SBC, what are you going to spend? $3000 for the motor. $1000+ for adaptors. Easily $1000+ for all the other bits you'll need (custom motor mounts, radiator, A/C plumbing, exhaust, etc.). Plus money for a custom fuel injection setup.
The reason that the LR diesel swap is so popular is not just because it's cool. It's also a known quantity. Got a hole in your rad in the middle of nowhere? Have a new OEM rad air freighted out to you. No fuss, no muss.
I love SBC's, but in this application, I think they only make sense if you need a new engine, and you want horsepower. If you can live with 120-200hp, then a small LR diesel makes the most sense. It's not going to save you money, unless you're doing it junkyard-style.
More info please. Disco or Defender TD5? (Defender version has less electronics to try and tie-in). Is he doing it piece-meal, or did he have a cut-up TD5 D2 shipped over from Europe?
I'm sure driving style also plays a factor. I can get 18mpg out of a moderately built D2. Most guys claim 13 or worse. That's the same kinda difference between getting 22 or 30 on a diesel. I have seen diesel Land Rover guys leave them idling for hours at shows... I think just to show off that they have a diesel. Everybody drives differently.
A brand new LS1 may be $1,000, but you can get a rebuilt LS1 for less than $1,000 in the US. The 300TDi you mentioned will be old, and may be rebuilt. Remember the 300TDi parts arent readily available in the US. In the US you can walk in to any Autozone, OReilley's, or name the auto parts store, and get the LS1 parts (ANYWHERE in the US). Not so with the TDI.
Dont forget that we're talking US applications here. LR TDis, or any foreign TDI for that matter, arent known quantities in the US. Theoretically, people doing the swaps (or thinking about the swaps) are wanting to go to remote areas where there are only small towns. So again, as you mentioned, if you have a break down, with a TDI (and even the LR V8) you'll have to have parts flown in from a parts source. At least with a Rover V8, a dealership is located in just about every state in the union. Parts become much more simple to source with a SBC LS1.
Many other states are similar. My other experiences are AZ and NV. Hell I lived in southern Clark County, NV and didnt have to go through emissions. But, if I moved to Las Vegas, I believe I would have to. AZ doesnt have emissions testing in the rural areas, but if you live in Maricopa County (phoenix), you do. I believe Tucson too.
Viggen
Just here...
I hope this is all talk about a newer LSx motor and not the old, heavy lump of a motor 350. A used 300tdi setup (motor, trans, rad) can be had for around $3000-$3800 with mileage above 50k plus shipping. You can pick up a GM 4.8 or 5.3 LSx from any wrecked pickup with a transmission for under $1500 with low miles. They make fantastic power, are tough as nails and with the 4L80E transmission, they return great mileage. Fuel injection doesnt have to be custom as its a GM and numerous companies make plug and play harness and ecu systems using stock sensors that are already there. Not that tough to set up and many are able to self tune based on the sensors. Get a Toyota splitcase transfer case (readily available, super tough, offset drive and adapters available off the shelf here in the US) and youve got a drivetrain. Might even be able to get away with a quality recored/ rebuilt stock rad. If you can put in the work of figuring out mountings, it can be done.
Sure, parts are available anywhere but I dont necessarily buy into that argument though. Having owned a vehicle with a motor that was not available in the States, I never ran into a parts issue. I could get what I needed through a couple major suppliers here in the States and I drove it everywhere. One thing you have to remember is a mechanical diesel doesnt need much. Pumps are easily rebuilt by an injection shop. Injectors, even when cold erroded and dripping, will still get you there. Thats about it. I think, barring freak mechanical failure, when youre running a 200/ 300 or any other mechanical diesel, you dont need that ready parts supply. You dont worry about spark plugs, ignition leads, distributors or coil packs, crank position sensors, O2 sensors, MAF, coolant temp sensors...you see where Im going with this?
Running a modern V8, which you would have to to go through an emissions inspection in many states, you now have a HUGE list of things that can go wrong. On a diesel, that list drops dramatically. I carry a pump diaphragm, an old set of glow plugs and, well, thats about it.
Sure, a diesel swap is expensive but once you have taken one off road where a lot of low revs are required, or worked on one, you wont understand the appeal. Its not just for fuel economy. Thats just a plus. Its more for the total package. You wont win a drag race but when you add all of it together, its far better than a V8.
Sure, parts are available anywhere but I dont necessarily buy into that argument though. Having owned a vehicle with a motor that was not available in the States, I never ran into a parts issue. I could get what I needed through a couple major suppliers here in the States and I drove it everywhere. One thing you have to remember is a mechanical diesel doesnt need much. Pumps are easily rebuilt by an injection shop. Injectors, even when cold erroded and dripping, will still get you there. Thats about it. I think, barring freak mechanical failure, when youre running a 200/ 300 or any other mechanical diesel, you dont need that ready parts supply. You dont worry about spark plugs, ignition leads, distributors or coil packs, crank position sensors, O2 sensors, MAF, coolant temp sensors...you see where Im going with this?
Running a modern V8, which you would have to to go through an emissions inspection in many states, you now have a HUGE list of things that can go wrong. On a diesel, that list drops dramatically. I carry a pump diaphragm, an old set of glow plugs and, well, thats about it.
Sure, a diesel swap is expensive but once you have taken one off road where a lot of low revs are required, or worked on one, you wont understand the appeal. Its not just for fuel economy. Thats just a plus. Its more for the total package. You wont win a drag race but when you add all of it together, its far better than a V8.
Rocket Ship
Banned
I don't argue with the parts availability. I'm just waiting for some of these places to set up vending machines with SBC pistons, rods, etc, out-front for after-hours service. :coffeedrink:
I don't know about those prices though, of course I haven't seriously looked. The cheapest fully assembled long-block SBC I can find on Summit Racing is $6000. A crate LS3 from GM Performance is $7500.
No, they are known. Put a TD5 in a D2, and you can use the Rave manual to diagnose it, and any place in the UK has parts diagrams. Same deal for a 300TDI into a D1 or Defender. And I'm assuming you either do the swap yourself, and so you understand it intimately, or you paid a capable person to do it, who can offer phone support as well.
In Canada, the dealers don't even stock pinion seals so, this is a moot point for me. Everything is at least overnight anyway.
A tuned TD5.
Nonimouse
Cynical old bastard
To be honest for us guys in Europe looking over the pond it's a no brainer.
Your petrol is so damn cheap!
I run a 200Tdi. It's a superb engine. IMHO the best Land Rover engine. Mine is tweeked and looked after like a baby. But if I could afford to I would have a V8. I love them, love their little habits and foibles. But I have kids to feed and clothe and at £1.38 a litre and 22mpg(imp) at best it's not happening.
If I could afford the fuel I would build up a nice 3.5 with a 3.9 cam. I'd do a personal build with a decent after market injection system, SD1 heads, worked cast iron manifolds, electric water pump, better oil pump.... A 3.5 is will run on cr&p fuel, has no liner issues, has more than enough grunt etc
Mind you a 3.9 would do
Fitting an LS1 is a down hill slide. New gearbox, new diffs, new half shafts etc etc etc
Anyhow, I'll stick to my 200Tdi
Your petrol is so damn cheap!
I run a 200Tdi. It's a superb engine. IMHO the best Land Rover engine. Mine is tweeked and looked after like a baby. But if I could afford to I would have a V8. I love them, love their little habits and foibles. But I have kids to feed and clothe and at £1.38 a litre and 22mpg(imp) at best it's not happening.
If I could afford the fuel I would build up a nice 3.5 with a 3.9 cam. I'd do a personal build with a decent after market injection system, SD1 heads, worked cast iron manifolds, electric water pump, better oil pump.... A 3.5 is will run on cr&p fuel, has no liner issues, has more than enough grunt etc
Mind you a 3.9 would do
Fitting an LS1 is a down hill slide. New gearbox, new diffs, new half shafts etc etc etc
Anyhow, I'll stick to my 200Tdi
Nonimouse wrote:
"But if I could afford to I would have a V8. I love them, love their little habits and foibles. But I have kids to feed and clothe and at £1.38 a litre and 22mpg(imp) at best it's not happening."
... and that in a nut shell just about sums this up! We all seem to want what we cannot have (or aren't supposed to be able to have). We lust after 200 and 300 Tdis, and yet in the UK, they wish they could have our V8s.
Everyone around here that are Land Rover enthusiast are saying, "yeah, but your truck becomes worth so much more when it has the 300 Tdi in it". That only matters if I were looking to sell the truck and make a hefty profit.
DO, I think that I am gonna just be happy with the V8 and when and if the time comes that she bites the dust, ... I'll re-evaluate.
"But if I could afford to I would have a V8. I love them, love their little habits and foibles. But I have kids to feed and clothe and at £1.38 a litre and 22mpg(imp) at best it's not happening."
... and that in a nut shell just about sums this up! We all seem to want what we cannot have (or aren't supposed to be able to have). We lust after 200 and 300 Tdis, and yet in the UK, they wish they could have our V8s.
Everyone around here that are Land Rover enthusiast are saying, "yeah, but your truck becomes worth so much more when it has the 300 Tdi in it". That only matters if I were looking to sell the truck and make a hefty profit.
DO, I think that I am gonna just be happy with the V8 and when and if the time comes that she bites the dust, ... I'll re-evaluate.
Roverx
Observer
Hey Dendy,
I just love how you stir the pot. As we live 20 min apart and I own two 300tdi and pretty much know the same people you do. Except for Chris, who has had tdi issues? His issue was directly related to the person who installed it. It's a shame it happened but that was not a 300tdi issue but an installer issue.
As for a Land Rover V8. I don't want to over estimate this but is their a person who has owned one and not had an issue?? hahaha Ok but seriously,
For what it's worth. I currently own two 300tdi's and am building a 3rd. I have also owned several rover V8's. I built the first 300 tdi from parts just over 8 1/2 years ago ( defender hybrid) and it has over 125K on it w/o issues. The second is 96 Saudi Spec Disco 1 that was just completed. The third is a defender I'm building with my son. W/O getting into which is better, as a 300tdi and V8 both have up and down sides, this is what I know IMHO if you want to do the swap. As for the Td5 or 2.8 I don't know enough to speak about them.
1: If you are doing this for fuel economy you will almost never see the savings. Most people use their rover as a toy and only cover about 5 k plus a year. I do about 15K a year.
Milage is good not great and will always be better with a stick. My 02 jetta tdi gets 50mpg plus. The best I have ever gotten in a 300 tdi is 28mpg (US gallon) in the defender. That was on the highway, at 55-60 mph max w/ 33" tires in the winter. My average is 23-24 mpg which is better than a Rover V8 any day of the week. My V8 averaged 14 mpg and the best I ever saw was 19mpg highway. As premium unleaded and diesel fuel are pretty much the same the cost is a wash. Having driven around a good portion of the US I have never had any issue finding diesel. Not sure what that was about?
2: Power in a 300tdi is well ?? it's not a V8 and thats for sure. Yes, you can tune it up a bit, add larger intercooler, pump timing etc and be very happy but it is what it is a truck plain and simple. It was never intended to be a sports car. If you want to pull a full size camper, horse trailer etc get a Ford, Dodge or GM pickup. You will be much happier. If on the other hand you want to off road and have a small 1000- 1500lb trailer you will be fine. Again, the right tool for the job.
3: Conversion cost depends greatly on where you get the motor. Granted it will never be less that swapping out a V8. Swapping out a V8 is a pretty straight forward and parts are cheap. Having said this, a 300Tdi in any rover in the US market will always be worth more than a comparable rover with a V8. They are few and far between and command a price. As for sourcing a 300tdi, do your homework! Both companies I dealt with offered a 30 -60 day warranty. I will start with the position that you are getting a used motor as new 300tdi are few and far between. My experience is that a complete 300tdi drivetrain can be purchased for between 3K - 10K plus shipping. Average milage on this type of used motor is 75k -125K You also need to factor in additional parts,timing belt kit, hoses, belts, lift pump, clutch etc so add in another $1000 - $2000. The best route is to purchase a running vehicle, have the service work done i.e. timing belt etc and have the entire drivetrain pulled. This is not the cheapest but best way to avoid headaches. You end up get everything you need to plug and play.
4:Installation: An average mechanic with a good selection of tool can complete the swap within two months with help from friends. If you are paying someone, average cost is between $3500. $8K and should take a about two weeks.
5: Parts availability is pretty good even in the US. I can get 90% of all parts within 24 hours. Between RN,AB,RDS,Safari rovers and many others, parts are not an issue. I also personally stock a complete extra set of belt,hoses,alternator, lift pump,gasket kit etc. This is just common sense for any owner non US spec vehicle.
6: The life span of an average V8 is about 175K maybe a bit more before they typically need a complete overhaul. 300Tdi should see at least 300k plus before major overhaul. They are not bomb proof but tend to fair much better that a rover V8.
7:Simplicity. The 300tdi is dead simple to work on. It's a one wire system, no computers, no electrical fiddle faddle. If something is wrong 9 times out of 10 it's fuel related.
This conversion is not for everyone. Personally, I love diesel vehicles and that is a big draw for me. I also love driving them off road. All I can say is after 8 1/2 years of driving a 300tdi everyday, the problems have been few and far between, were as my V8 Land Rovers have kept me busy with a never ending stream of issues. Best of luck with whatever to drive and hope to see you on the trail.
Cheers
Scott
I just love how you stir the pot. As we live 20 min apart and I own two 300tdi and pretty much know the same people you do. Except for Chris, who has had tdi issues? His issue was directly related to the person who installed it. It's a shame it happened but that was not a 300tdi issue but an installer issue.
As for a Land Rover V8. I don't want to over estimate this but is their a person who has owned one and not had an issue?? hahaha Ok but seriously,
For what it's worth. I currently own two 300tdi's and am building a 3rd. I have also owned several rover V8's. I built the first 300 tdi from parts just over 8 1/2 years ago ( defender hybrid) and it has over 125K on it w/o issues. The second is 96 Saudi Spec Disco 1 that was just completed. The third is a defender I'm building with my son. W/O getting into which is better, as a 300tdi and V8 both have up and down sides, this is what I know IMHO if you want to do the swap. As for the Td5 or 2.8 I don't know enough to speak about them.
1: If you are doing this for fuel economy you will almost never see the savings. Most people use their rover as a toy and only cover about 5 k plus a year. I do about 15K a year.
Milage is good not great and will always be better with a stick. My 02 jetta tdi gets 50mpg plus. The best I have ever gotten in a 300 tdi is 28mpg (US gallon) in the defender. That was on the highway, at 55-60 mph max w/ 33" tires in the winter. My average is 23-24 mpg which is better than a Rover V8 any day of the week. My V8 averaged 14 mpg and the best I ever saw was 19mpg highway. As premium unleaded and diesel fuel are pretty much the same the cost is a wash. Having driven around a good portion of the US I have never had any issue finding diesel. Not sure what that was about?
2: Power in a 300tdi is well ?? it's not a V8 and thats for sure. Yes, you can tune it up a bit, add larger intercooler, pump timing etc and be very happy but it is what it is a truck plain and simple. It was never intended to be a sports car. If you want to pull a full size camper, horse trailer etc get a Ford, Dodge or GM pickup. You will be much happier. If on the other hand you want to off road and have a small 1000- 1500lb trailer you will be fine. Again, the right tool for the job.
3: Conversion cost depends greatly on where you get the motor. Granted it will never be less that swapping out a V8. Swapping out a V8 is a pretty straight forward and parts are cheap. Having said this, a 300Tdi in any rover in the US market will always be worth more than a comparable rover with a V8. They are few and far between and command a price. As for sourcing a 300tdi, do your homework! Both companies I dealt with offered a 30 -60 day warranty. I will start with the position that you are getting a used motor as new 300tdi are few and far between. My experience is that a complete 300tdi drivetrain can be purchased for between 3K - 10K plus shipping. Average milage on this type of used motor is 75k -125K You also need to factor in additional parts,timing belt kit, hoses, belts, lift pump, clutch etc so add in another $1000 - $2000. The best route is to purchase a running vehicle, have the service work done i.e. timing belt etc and have the entire drivetrain pulled. This is not the cheapest but best way to avoid headaches. You end up get everything you need to plug and play.
4:Installation: An average mechanic with a good selection of tool can complete the swap within two months with help from friends. If you are paying someone, average cost is between $3500. $8K and should take a about two weeks.
5: Parts availability is pretty good even in the US. I can get 90% of all parts within 24 hours. Between RN,AB,RDS,Safari rovers and many others, parts are not an issue. I also personally stock a complete extra set of belt,hoses,alternator, lift pump,gasket kit etc. This is just common sense for any owner non US spec vehicle.
6: The life span of an average V8 is about 175K maybe a bit more before they typically need a complete overhaul. 300Tdi should see at least 300k plus before major overhaul. They are not bomb proof but tend to fair much better that a rover V8.
7:Simplicity. The 300tdi is dead simple to work on. It's a one wire system, no computers, no electrical fiddle faddle. If something is wrong 9 times out of 10 it's fuel related.
This conversion is not for everyone. Personally, I love diesel vehicles and that is a big draw for me. I also love driving them off road. All I can say is after 8 1/2 years of driving a 300tdi everyday, the problems have been few and far between, were as my V8 Land Rovers have kept me busy with a never ending stream of issues. Best of luck with whatever to drive and hope to see you on the trail.
Cheers
Scott
Rocket Ship
Banned
Depends where you're going. My last trip had over 600km between diesel fuel pumps. Not insurmountable, but it's something to think about.
Very good information, just some thoughts....
While the Rover V8 has its problems (I think most will agree its really all the ancillaries attached that have most of the problems), 1) the Rover V8 hasn't really been advocated here, and 2) even so, the money to acquire, tune up, ship and install a TDi is more than enough to keep a Rover V8 running, or swap one out (even for a 4.6) and keep it running with money left over.
May be true, regarding the mileage. However, 1) 175k miles is a lot of miles for one owner to put on a car. 2) as previously stated most 300TDis coming over here have at least 100k miles. Diesels will last 300k. Gassers are approaching that mark with proper maintenance. 3) Most owners will get bored with their car and sell it long before 175k gets there. The most I have gotten is 160k on a vehicle (91 Isuzu Trooper S 4cyl that was still in great shape). 4) besides, even if you do have a great rebuild job on a TDI, chances are the donor body will fall apart long before. While the engine runs a long time, it seems that the body goes long before. Look at the older 7.3 PSD Ford trucks and similar era Cummins powered Dodges. Those bodies look like crap, and Rovers certainly arent more immune to rust and interior detioration. My point is, around 200-250k most Rover bodies/interiors seem to be shot.
I think that is the very point that needs to be made. Do the conversion because you want to, because diesels are a hobby, because you just have a preference for diesels. Otherwise there isnt a legitimate justification for the swap in the US. I bought an 06 F350 because I thought I liked/wanted the diesel engine. Yes, it sounded cool, drove ok, but ultimately I didnt see any benefit over a V8 other than when something really heavy was attached to my trailer hitch. But that only happened once.
If I had to do an engine swap due to a failure, then I'd probably go with the SBC. If I wanted to spend the money to play with, then I would probably do the TDi swap for kicks. I still think the TDI swaps are cool though.