Thoughts on Transplants- 300Tdi vs. 3.9 v8
- Thread starter Dendy Jarrett
- Start date
timmy!!!!!!!
Explorer
x2 I have my disco set up exactly the way I like it but I hate having to fill up several times on any trip. Been thinking about a tdi once the v8 dies out.
DividingCreek
Explorer
Why wouldn't I do a conversion on a disco ? This really would boil down to the differences between the two trucks and the monetary value of the finished product as well.
I should preface these coments by saying that I have done 5 engine transplants in the past 12 mos. Three I was paid to do. The two that i had to do were on my own trucks. I'm burned out on engine swaps for the time being.
Defenders have the removeable radiator support or breakfast panel. This hugely simplfies engine removal and installation. Defenders have bulkheads that allow access to everything. the disco bulkhead.......well if you have tried to access the bell housing to block bolts you know. The engine harness on a defender is simply unplugged and lifted out with the engine. Again with the disco the engine wiring harness is integral to the main harness ie unplug everything on the engine and then drape the loom up over the roof or over the passenger side fender will removing or installing an engine. I you are doing a conversion on a disco you need to swap out the entire main wiring harness to the correct diesel on or start cutting wires. Then there is the fact that D1's and now D2's have very little value according to NADA and Kelly. The idea that value of a tdi drivetrain is higher than the running truck its going into and then the factors above are such that I just wouldn't do it. Everything about the defender lends itself to the ease of this sort of transplant. Again I'm not bashing anyones ride just saying for me I just had a very nice rust free 86k disco's engine die and I choose to replace it rather than convert.
rover4x4
Adventurer
I hate to hijack but I would really like to know about the 5speed in a Classic, the ZF is a complete POS IMO. A 5 speed behind the RV8 is so much more driveable than the autobox. Ive driven a 2.8PS D90st, it was memorable pulled just like a diesel should. Ive also driven a Td5 110 it was really really nice, like a no brainer to me. I will do Td5 if the need ever presents itself
timmy!!!!!!!
Explorer
Ok, those are pretty valid points. I was just making sure it wasn't a drivability issue since you deal with tdis all day.
lwg
Member
I've never understood this. My experience with the ZF has been nothing but good in the past 10+ years. Occasionally there are problems but that's the case with any transmission.
That makes a lot of sense. Why put a drive train in a car that is worth probably not even half as much as the drive train itself?
Huh? What facts do you base your opinion on? If you research the threads on this and most other BBS related to Rovers, you dont find near as many discussing ZF transmission issues. These transmissions are great, and are very durable. Plus, if there is ever an issue, ZFs are common enough that transmission shops can deal with them easily.
lwg
Member
Bingo! ZF's are super common. Tons of shops work on them if you have problems.
If you want a 5-speed because you just want a 5-speed no problem there, but don't throw the ZF under the bus!
I personally like the Auto's but to each his own.
Viggen
Just here...
If that was true, then one would never replace a motor in these trucks ever. A '96 D1 is worth about $3500 according to the book. A complete, professionally rebuilt longblock can run you more than you can pick up an entire truck for. If you boil it down, in something like a D1, nothing makes sense. You have to do it because you want it and will keep it for a while. Theres an RRC on LRX thats been for sale for a while. He wants $18k for it. He will probably never get that. It makes no sense spending $5k on a motor/trans/ radiator/ ancillaries set up and then at least $2k on swapping it in unless you really, really want a diesel and plan on keeping it for an extremely long time so that it will pay for itself. Doing it in a Defender is a safer monetary thing because people will pay $18k for one.
A complete diesel drive train and the cost to rewire the electrics is significantly more expensive than the body/chasis it is going in if it is a D1. I am just considering the ratio of the drive train and swap costs vs the value of the body/chasis the diesel drive train is going in. When i considered dropping a used non-rebuilt (but still running and being used) 300tdi in my 91 RR, the cost was $13k for the drive train and labor ($10k for drive train and $3k for labor). Then I was probably going to have to upgrade the rear axle atleast, and then add a 1" lift to accomodate the height of the diesel engine. So you can do the math. My RR was in pristine condition with only 80k on the engine. I sold it for $8k, which is about 2-3x more than a D1 is worth.
A quality RRC; if the body and interior are in fantstic shape, then the swap might be worth it value wise?? A defender I can see why, because those in decent shape, even with 100k+ miles on them will still be worth twice what the cost of an install will be. The conversion will add that more value to the Defender (assuming the body is in good shape). This is not addressing whether the diesel engine is "better" than the gas.
Just my opinion after thinking about Doug's comments.
Snagger
Explorer
The LT77 and later R380 are fairly tough boxes, but not as tough as a well maintained ZF. The original LT77 tended to wear out its bearings, which were uprated and enlarged at about the same time as the introduction of the 200Tdi engine, becoming the LT77S. This handled the torque better. They still suffered main shaft spline wear due to the transfer box input gear not being cross-drilled, starving the splines of lubrication.
The R380 is a development of the LT77S with a repositioned reverse gear gate, revised selector system and relocated reverse light switch. It still has faults carried over from the LT77, principally the rapid wear of the second gear baulk ring (making swift change-up crunch the gears), and wear of the sandwich plate's selector shaft hole, allowing the selector shaft to move laterally as well as rotationally, increasing the movement required on the gear lever and causing reverse gear selection and reverse light switch activation problems. The main shaft spline wear was rectified with cross drilled gears on LT230 attached gear boxes (the Borg-Warner attached units in RRCs never had the same problem).
Most problems in the ZF come about due to infrequent ATF changes or ignoring the oil filter in its sump. If the ATF and filter are replaced on schedule, the unit is almost bullet-proof. An auto box is never as fuel efficient or good for performance as a manual box because of how the torque converters work, and the 4th gear is probably a lower ratio than 5th on an LT77 or R380, but the figures shouldn't be horribly far adrift. Behind a Tdi or TD5, the R380 is the better option, but that's because they have relatively low performance and you need to squeeze all of their output down to the road, but behind a V8, the ZF is generally regarded as the better drive as the V8 has enough torque that you can afford to lose a little through the converters. ZF conversions are popular in the UK, made rare only because of the cost involved, but high on many owners' wish lists.
Snagger
Explorer
If your V8 is a "dog", then something is wrong with it. As for driving slowly in Europe, you clearly have never been here... 80 mph is standard on most "highway" equivalents (the UK limit is slower than the rest at 70 but most do 80) and some German routes are unrestricted. The UK's single lane country roads are even 60 mph, which is higher than most US big main arterial routes.
Snagger
Explorer
Well put.
Anyone doing engine swaps for "cool factor" is well entitled to do so, but it takes deep pockets and a fair bit of time. if you can afford those, you're luckier than me!
As for the argument that getting Tdi parts in the US will be difficult, that is wrong - LR support all of their equipment worldwide. While US dealerships may be less likely to stock Tdi components, they will be able to have them supplied immediately from LR in the UK at no extra charge unless airfreighted for emergency speed. Shipped at the normal speed, they would be normal cost. But you have to ask yourself how much stock any dealership normally carries - will your local dealer have a cam shaft, piston, bearing set, oil pump or cam follower for your V8? No way - they;ll have to order it in from the UK, making it no disadvantage to own a Tdi. As Dividing Creek says, though, Tdis are generally much more robust and reliable than V8s, so the chance of being stranded are that much smaller.
I have a 200Tdi 109 and a 300Tdi RRC. The 109 was a vehicle I re-engined, and it wasn't hard despite the generational difference. To re-engine a Defender would be fairly simple. The RRC is factory spec, and I shopped around for two years to find one of that spec. I chose those engines for good reason - the fuel economy and the reliability.
However, as Dividing Creek and others have also pointed out, the work and cost involved in changing a V8 powered DI or RRC to Tdi are high, especially the cost in the US where engines are not commonly available from breakers yards, and so are often not worthwhile from an economic view point alone.
As some have said, the LR diesels are low capacity and hardly set the world alight with performance, but they are good enough to do the job frugally. Bigger engines mean more weight, which means uprating suspension, adding further weight and compromising off road ability and on road handling. It also means a loss of fuel economy. having relatively low performance is also a good thing for an expedition truck - while TDis and TD5s are easily tuned for much more torque, doing so isn't wise on a vehicle meant to travel remote areas as the chances or damaging the transmission or itself increase exponentially. Low power/torque = greater vehicle reliability, and a small, boosted and higher revving engine (as is the way with European and Japanese vehicles) is a far more efficient and practical manner of powering a vehicle than a big block with lots of cubic inches.
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Rocket Ship
Banned
Because not everything comes down to a question of dollar value. Some people build their trucks to USE them, not to sell them once the "build" is done. And if the conversion makes sense for an owner, that's his call, and his coin.
Why not just start with a Defender? Because Discoveries and Rangies have many advantages over Defenders. Defenders have a lot of good qualities. But comfort, NVH, etc are not one of them. Many people put a lot of value in being warm, dry, and holding a conversation with your passengers. If the disadvantage is that you can't take your body apart with a screwdriver, that's a fair trade-off for many people.
What have you driven other than Rovers? The V8 is a DOG. The most powerful version makes a paltry 217hp from 4.6L. In the 90's, the 4.0 produced 190 hp, meanwhile GM was putting the 5.7L in trucks with 255hp, more torque, and better fuel economy to boot. Even GM's base model full-size truck engine, the 4.3L V6 was putting out 200hp and more torque.
And then that same engine was offered as the large engine in lightweight compact trucks that would blow the doors off a Rover. (190hp 4500lb vs. 180hp 3000lb)
Where are you getting your prices? You can get a 300 with a swap kit for $3800 used, $5800 rebuilt, delivered. The R380 is another $1200 used, $1750 rebuilt. 300's can be bought used on Ebay.uk for about $1000. You just need to figure out shipping, which is not insurmountable if you have the right contacts. I was offered a complete running 300 with an R380, delivered in Canada, for $4500.