Tire chains, snow, mud, and airing down.....
- Thread starter Metcalf
- Start date
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
If you have an air compressor I HIGHLY suggest that you try airing down as a comparison. You can't drive like a maniac with really low air pressure and no bead locks, but I would suggest working your way down in pressure. Start at 10psi and then go down 1-2psi at a time as you get the feel for it.
You are NOT trying to dig and claw your way through, you are trying to use smooth momentum and patience.....
-If your going slow and your tires are spinning, stop, back up 5-10 feet and try and roll into the fresh snow using your tracks as a smooth runway to build up a little speed. Once you get the technique right you will be able to gain speed a bit, and grab the next gear.
-Keep lowering the air pressure as you get more comfortable. Again, this is not about using the long skinny pedal, sawing the wheel back and forth, etc. Doing that WILL cause your tires to come off the bead. Use your head.
-You will notice a drastic difference between street pressure, 10psi, 5psi, and 3psi. Its a big difference in performance...like the difference between lockers and no lockers.....or low range and hi range.
-Try not to spot when your in the middle of a hill. Try and stop where its flat or downhill. This makes it a lot easier to get started again. Remember, back up a few feet so you can 'bump' the un-compacted snow a little with slight momentum. Then roll through that and continue driving.
-If you stop forward progress stop before you dig yourself into big holes. Back up and roll into it using a slight bump. Once you get the feel of it all this will make more sense.
-Be prepared for a bead loss. Carry a ratchet strap and air source for setting the bead. If you only use one bead, jack the tire up, then add air while pulling the lost bead back on the tire. If you loose both beads you can use the ratchet strap around the circumference of the tire to help seat the beads. There are other methods like using a motorcycle inner tube, the bucket method, etc. Do a little research before you go off blindly
Best of luck.
You are NOT trying to dig and claw your way through, you are trying to use smooth momentum and patience.....
-If your going slow and your tires are spinning, stop, back up 5-10 feet and try and roll into the fresh snow using your tracks as a smooth runway to build up a little speed. Once you get the technique right you will be able to gain speed a bit, and grab the next gear.
-Keep lowering the air pressure as you get more comfortable. Again, this is not about using the long skinny pedal, sawing the wheel back and forth, etc. Doing that WILL cause your tires to come off the bead. Use your head.
-You will notice a drastic difference between street pressure, 10psi, 5psi, and 3psi. Its a big difference in performance...like the difference between lockers and no lockers.....or low range and hi range.
-Try not to spot when your in the middle of a hill. Try and stop where its flat or downhill. This makes it a lot easier to get started again. Remember, back up a few feet so you can 'bump' the un-compacted snow a little with slight momentum. Then roll through that and continue driving.
-If you stop forward progress stop before you dig yourself into big holes. Back up and roll into it using a slight bump. Once you get the feel of it all this will make more sense.
-Be prepared for a bead loss. Carry a ratchet strap and air source for setting the bead. If you only use one bead, jack the tire up, then add air while pulling the lost bead back on the tire. If you loose both beads you can use the ratchet strap around the circumference of the tire to help seat the beads. There are other methods like using a motorcycle inner tube, the bucket method, etc. Do a little research before you go off blindly
Best of luck.
007
Explorer
This thread was on my mind so I did a little experiment to see just how far I could go using a few techniques.
I started out at 40psi (because that was what was in my tires.)
When that stopped working I went to 20psi (didn't help much)
So I went 10 psi and the advantage was very significant as I started to float much better and the smaller tire diameter freed up some power and wheel speed.
Then I got to a steeper section and had to go to 5psi, and this was way better than 10 psi but I didn't feel comfortable going lower without beadlocks and I forgot to bring ratchet straps or starting fluid, so after progress stopped I chained up all tires with V-bars and aired back up to 10psi
This was working out even better as my speed increased and my momentum was helping me float. Even when I fell into the loose drifts I could auger down to the ice and punch through.
Then I broke one of my front chains!
This was sort of tragic because 4 chains got me in to the mess and now I had to retreat - but couldn't, plus its 0 degrees and I'm 30 miles from a house or cell coverage at 8,000ft and its starting to snow hard. I was equipt to spend a few nights comfortably though.
I ended up at 5psi with three chains and had to use a shovel, high lift, chainsaw and some dead trees to get back out.
Technically I got stuck in 2009 and didn't recover until 2010!
I started out at 40psi (because that was what was in my tires.)
When that stopped working I went to 20psi (didn't help much)
So I went 10 psi and the advantage was very significant as I started to float much better and the smaller tire diameter freed up some power and wheel speed.
Then I got to a steeper section and had to go to 5psi, and this was way better than 10 psi but I didn't feel comfortable going lower without beadlocks and I forgot to bring ratchet straps or starting fluid, so after progress stopped I chained up all tires with V-bars and aired back up to 10psi
This was working out even better as my speed increased and my momentum was helping me float. Even when I fell into the loose drifts I could auger down to the ice and punch through.
Then I broke one of my front chains!
This was sort of tragic because 4 chains got me in to the mess and now I had to retreat - but couldn't, plus its 0 degrees and I'm 30 miles from a house or cell coverage at 8,000ft and its starting to snow hard. I was equipt to spend a few nights comfortably though.
I ended up at 5psi with three chains and had to use a shovel, high lift, chainsaw and some dead trees to get back out.
Technically I got stuck in 2009 and didn't recover until 2010!
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
Good to hear.
5 psi is good.....try 2-3
Don't be too afraid of the beads as long as your drive smart.
I noticed your chainsaw too. You could use a variation of the bucket method to reseat the beads. Basically you want to cut a round of wood just smaller dia than the inside of the rim, and about 2' long Stick the round of wood into the snow or on hard ground if you can find it. Remove the tire and rim ( that has bead problems ) from the truck . Set the tire/rim on the wood round with the backside facing up. You then use your weight to work the outer bead down onto the rim. By working it around a bit you can usually get it to stick on the bead ( it doesn't need to be fully seated ) Once the bead is seated enough then flip the rim over and set it on the round. Hook up your air supply, the face of the wheel should now be up facing you. Now while adding air to the tire GENTLY push down on the tire to get the inner bead to seal and inflate. The trick is using the right pressure and working the outer bead on pretty good before you flip the tire. Then run the tire up to full street pressure to seat the beads before airing it down again.
You can also use a 5 gallon bucket to do this....hence the 'bucket' method.
Its always worked for me when I have had people loose beads on the trail.
5 psi is good.....try 2-3
Don't be too afraid of the beads as long as your drive smart.
I noticed your chainsaw too. You could use a variation of the bucket method to reseat the beads. Basically you want to cut a round of wood just smaller dia than the inside of the rim, and about 2' long Stick the round of wood into the snow or on hard ground if you can find it. Remove the tire and rim ( that has bead problems ) from the truck . Set the tire/rim on the wood round with the backside facing up. You then use your weight to work the outer bead down onto the rim. By working it around a bit you can usually get it to stick on the bead ( it doesn't need to be fully seated ) Once the bead is seated enough then flip the rim over and set it on the round. Hook up your air supply, the face of the wheel should now be up facing you. Now while adding air to the tire GENTLY push down on the tire to get the inner bead to seal and inflate. The trick is using the right pressure and working the outer bead on pretty good before you flip the tire. Then run the tire up to full street pressure to seat the beads before airing it down again.
You can also use a 5 gallon bucket to do this....hence the 'bucket' method.
Its always worked for me when I have had people loose beads on the trail.
007
Explorer
5 psi is good.....try 2-3
I bet! It would also help if I wasn't running skinny 255's
Thanks for the bucket trick!
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
255s work pretty well. The long skinny tire contact patch when aired down isn't a bad thing in the snow. You end up having to push down less snow, but you spread the area out over a longer contact patch.
The Michelin tires on my dodge are like plus sized 255s. They are listed at 325/85r16s but are even a little taller than they should be. The section ratio is he same as your 255s.
One of my close friends ran 255s on his jeep for a few seasons. It didn't hold him back much at all in the snow.
The Michelin tires on my dodge are like plus sized 255s. They are listed at 325/85r16s but are even a little taller than they should be. The section ratio is he same as your 255s.
One of my close friends ran 255s on his jeep for a few seasons. It didn't hold him back much at all in the snow.
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
Chains are a lot less likely to break if they are really tight on the tire. For the type you were running you need to install them tight, drive a bit and then stop and retighten them. Chains being tight is key.
I've used chains a lot in very deep snow, very rough terrain and with a very overloaded vehicle and never broken one. In fact, the only vehicle I've broken a tire chain on was a skidder where we let them get loose.
I've used chains a lot in very deep snow, very rough terrain and with a very overloaded vehicle and never broken one. In fact, the only vehicle I've broken a tire chain on was a skidder where we let them get loose.
tire chains for hard core winter trail rides
007, that is a great post. I am sooooo jealous! We finally got about 3 or 4 inches on the ground here in my area of NE PA (Scranton) - Southern Tier of NY (Binghamton).
Your post is a great reminder to all who do or are contemplating doing serious winter wheeling. Be prepared to get stranded for a few days and able to stay comfy even if your vehicle is 100% dead and useless. Besides the ability to stay warm, fed and watered a GPS, cell phone and a backup GPS and backup communication are wise to have. I am an Extra Class ham radio operator and carry extra gear for VHF, UHF and "short wave" frequencies, besides the cell phone. Over the years the school of hard knocks has also taught me to put in a second alternator and second battery. I can manually isolate or connect the systems. If either battery is good or either alternator is good, she will run.
On to your pictures. Awesome. You are "living the dream"!!
I see the v-bars and the 4 link spacing the cross treads are on. They look like 1/4" or 9/32" material. Measure the cross tread well away from the v-bar and let me know the diameter of the material. .280" dia I suspect. I guarantee you that going to 2 link spacing and 5/16" will make a world of difference for you. For such severe conditions you might even consider having a set of 3/8" material, custom fitted 2 link spaced chains built for you. You will not break those!! I agree with the comments about keeping your chains "tight" but want to point out that "chain tensioners" are a poor substitute for "true fit". As suggested, drive a few minutes and then see if you can draw up another link. I take a bottle jack and put my chains on one tire at a time while the tire is up in the air and able to spin freely. By working it around this way the slack is pretty much gone. From experience I have the "tightest links" marked so I know when putting them on what I need to strive for/what is possible. I go to least possible slack right at the start this way by spinning the tire around and around while up in the air and continuing to work the chain for a few minutes on the tire until I arrive at the "tightest links".
I gave up on the CAM type or fold over type connecting links. They fail in rock strewn trails. They seem to get mangled a bit this way or that and then experience a fatigue fail the same as a tin can does when bent back and forth. I would say one of the four fold over/cam locks would fail about every 40 hours of actual trail use. I have switched to the screw type connector links, kind of like a carabineer but the center section is merely a long internally threaded nut. I have NEVER had one of these fail.
As to the snow and its depth relative to your truck, I think you have gone about as far as is practical for your tire size and type without being a tracked vehicle. Unless you are actually light enough to get on top and truly float (what a tracked vehicle does for the most part) a wheeled vehicle is only able to go in a certain depth of snow before high centering itself or pushing such a pile in front of it that the resistance is just to much to overcome on the level let alone going up a hill. Even running bead locks and ultra low pressures, tires do not have the surface area of tracks and the rest is just physics.
You noticed a big impact just missing one of the four tire chains. No surprise there. Now think about it the other way - DOUBLE the number of cross treads on each tire and make them a bit bigger in size. The improvement will be just as obvious as the hit you experienced. You will still, eventually, run into drifts or snow pack deep enough to stop you but you will get to where you did this time with less effort and greater safety. If you ever happen to run side hills with little snow but lots of ice you will also notice a HUGE difference between the 4 link and 2 link spacing.
Regards
1966 IH
007, that is a great post. I am sooooo jealous! We finally got about 3 or 4 inches on the ground here in my area of NE PA (Scranton) - Southern Tier of NY (Binghamton).
Your post is a great reminder to all who do or are contemplating doing serious winter wheeling. Be prepared to get stranded for a few days and able to stay comfy even if your vehicle is 100% dead and useless. Besides the ability to stay warm, fed and watered a GPS, cell phone and a backup GPS and backup communication are wise to have. I am an Extra Class ham radio operator and carry extra gear for VHF, UHF and "short wave" frequencies, besides the cell phone. Over the years the school of hard knocks has also taught me to put in a second alternator and second battery. I can manually isolate or connect the systems. If either battery is good or either alternator is good, she will run.
On to your pictures. Awesome. You are "living the dream"!!
I see the v-bars and the 4 link spacing the cross treads are on. They look like 1/4" or 9/32" material. Measure the cross tread well away from the v-bar and let me know the diameter of the material. .280" dia I suspect. I guarantee you that going to 2 link spacing and 5/16" will make a world of difference for you. For such severe conditions you might even consider having a set of 3/8" material, custom fitted 2 link spaced chains built for you. You will not break those!! I agree with the comments about keeping your chains "tight" but want to point out that "chain tensioners" are a poor substitute for "true fit". As suggested, drive a few minutes and then see if you can draw up another link. I take a bottle jack and put my chains on one tire at a time while the tire is up in the air and able to spin freely. By working it around this way the slack is pretty much gone. From experience I have the "tightest links" marked so I know when putting them on what I need to strive for/what is possible. I go to least possible slack right at the start this way by spinning the tire around and around while up in the air and continuing to work the chain for a few minutes on the tire until I arrive at the "tightest links".
I gave up on the CAM type or fold over type connecting links. They fail in rock strewn trails. They seem to get mangled a bit this way or that and then experience a fatigue fail the same as a tin can does when bent back and forth. I would say one of the four fold over/cam locks would fail about every 40 hours of actual trail use. I have switched to the screw type connector links, kind of like a carabineer but the center section is merely a long internally threaded nut. I have NEVER had one of these fail.
As to the snow and its depth relative to your truck, I think you have gone about as far as is practical for your tire size and type without being a tracked vehicle. Unless you are actually light enough to get on top and truly float (what a tracked vehicle does for the most part) a wheeled vehicle is only able to go in a certain depth of snow before high centering itself or pushing such a pile in front of it that the resistance is just to much to overcome on the level let alone going up a hill. Even running bead locks and ultra low pressures, tires do not have the surface area of tracks and the rest is just physics.
You noticed a big impact just missing one of the four tire chains. No surprise there. Now think about it the other way - DOUBLE the number of cross treads on each tire and make them a bit bigger in size. The improvement will be just as obvious as the hit you experienced. You will still, eventually, run into drifts or snow pack deep enough to stop you but you will get to where you did this time with less effort and greater safety. If you ever happen to run side hills with little snow but lots of ice you will also notice a HUGE difference between the 4 link and 2 link spacing.
Regards
1966 IH
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
As to the snow and its depth relative to your truck, I think you have gone about as far as is practical for your tire size and type without being a tracked vehicle. Unless you are actually light enough to get on top and truly float (what a tracked vehicle does for the most part) a wheeled vehicle is only able to go in a certain depth of snow before high centering itself or pushing such a pile in front of it that the resistance is just to much to overcome on the level let alone going up a hill. Even running bead locks and ultra low pressures, tires do not have the surface area of tracks and the rest is just physics.
That isn't the way I see it.
You CAN get on top of the snow with low air pressure and big tires. It does depend on the snow conditions. If the snow is really light dry powder you just push it out of the way. You can be driving along with snow coming over the hood with no issues. As the snow gets wetter it starts to compact more under the tires and the more you float. The magic point happens when you get into snow conditions where the snow is firm enough that you can get the diffs out of the snow. Once this happens the only thing that stops progress is side hills. There is a little grey area between dry powder and floating with clear diffs.....but generally it works out very well. We have driven over 10 foot deep drifts when the conditions are decent. Don't get me wrong, snow conditions play into it a lot, but it is very possible, even on 4000lb jeeps running 35s at 2-3psi.
Where you start to have problems is when the snow has a crust. This is normally caused by warmer temps and sun...then freezing again. This generally starts to form 'sugar' type snow under the crust. This snow does not compress and causes a lot of problems. Once you fall through the crust you start having big issues.....total pain in the butt.
Snow conditions can also change A LOT with the time of the day. At night when its cold the snow generally firms up and you have a lot easier time. During the day if its warmer and sunny the snow can really soften up causing some issues. We have also noticed a big difference in snow conditions from just the shade and sun on a trail. All very important things to keep in mind.
That isn't the way I see it.
You CAN get on top of the snow with low air pressure and big tires. It does depend on the snow conditions. If the snow is really light dry powder you just push it out of the way. You can be driving along with snow coming over the hood with no issues. As the snow gets wetter it starts to compact more under the tires and the more you float. The magic point happens when you get into snow conditions where the snow is firm enough that you can get the diffs out of the snow. Once this happens the only thing that stops progress is side hills. There is a little grey area between dry powder and floating with clear diffs.....but generally it works out very well. We have driven over 10 foot deep drifts when the conditions are decent. Don't get me wrong, snow conditions play into it a lot, but it is very possible, even on 4000lb jeeps running 35s at 2-3psi.
Where you start to have problems is when the snow has a crust. This is normally caused by warmer temps and sun...then freezing again. This generally starts to form 'sugar' type snow under the crust. This snow does not compress and causes a lot of problems. Once you fall through the crust you start having big issues.....total pain in the butt.
Snow conditions can also change A LOT with the time of the day. At night when its cold the snow generally firms up and you have a lot easier time. During the day if its warmer and sunny the snow can really soften up causing some issues. We have also noticed a big difference in snow conditions from just the shade and sun on a trail. All very important things to keep in mind.
tire chains for hard core winter trail rides
Metcalf, I agree it is possible to ride on this depth of snow if the snow is hard enough and dense enough such as on a packed down ski slope or where natural conditions somehow create a similar situation. I have never seen this done in NE USA but figure one could say in the arctic they are diving on top of a mile of snow. That said, I would love to see a non chained 4x4 start, stop and easily creep up a 30 degree slope equivalent to a packed ski slope at 3 or 4 MPH with street legal tires. I say it can not be done with street legal tires on a normal vehicle, regardless of how aired down the tires are. I am open to video to show otherwise. My experience is that a properly chained 4x4 will always do better on a mid winter trail witha foot of snow and compressed snow/ice under it than a non chained vehicle. Do you disagree with that? 007, what do you think? Could you have gotten as far as you did on your recent trip without chains? You noticed a big difference just loosing 1 of your 4 chains.
Metcalf, I also agree with your statement about snow density and not dragging the diffs. The video of the green truck is actually proof of that (even with chains digging a bit) because the snow is 2 feet deep but the tires only settle about a foot into the snow. In theory, if the snow was the right density, it could have been several feet deep under that truck.
But I also say there is "a reality" that 007 hit where the snow is not the right density and one will just sink, get high centered and have to winch or dig. In THAT type of snow you need tracks.
Regards
1966IH
Metcalf, I agree it is possible to ride on this depth of snow if the snow is hard enough and dense enough such as on a packed down ski slope or where natural conditions somehow create a similar situation. I have never seen this done in NE USA but figure one could say in the arctic they are diving on top of a mile of snow. That said, I would love to see a non chained 4x4 start, stop and easily creep up a 30 degree slope equivalent to a packed ski slope at 3 or 4 MPH with street legal tires. I say it can not be done with street legal tires on a normal vehicle, regardless of how aired down the tires are. I am open to video to show otherwise. My experience is that a properly chained 4x4 will always do better on a mid winter trail witha foot of snow and compressed snow/ice under it than a non chained vehicle. Do you disagree with that? 007, what do you think? Could you have gotten as far as you did on your recent trip without chains? You noticed a big difference just loosing 1 of your 4 chains.
Metcalf, I also agree with your statement about snow density and not dragging the diffs. The video of the green truck is actually proof of that (even with chains digging a bit) because the snow is 2 feet deep but the tires only settle about a foot into the snow. In theory, if the snow was the right density, it could have been several feet deep under that truck.
But I also say there is "a reality" that 007 hit where the snow is not the right density and one will just sink, get high centered and have to winch or dig. In THAT type of snow you need tracks.
Regards
1966IH
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007
Explorer
I certainly made it farther with four chains, I had to retreat when one broke. There were some wind blown icy slopes that one would never have even attempted without chains.
In fact there is another thread going on that talks about a vehicle sliding down an icy road towards a drop but the guy behind him blocked him from going off with his truck http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35757&page=2
I certainly understand what Metcalf says about floating and airing down as much as possible. Parts of the trip which had been packed by sleds were very easy to float on, also the flat areas were easily handled by airing down and staying on top.
The biggest advantage was being able to climb up hill and saw through some crusty sections that were loose underneath.
I think if you go out to play in the snow you can probably find conditions and places to go where a good air supply will work all day, but if you do get stuck you're out of options so I would still have at least a cheap set on board. A winch would not have done me any good in one place I got stuck because there wasn't any trees for hundreds of yards and the ground was too frozen to pound an anchor unless you built a fire in that spot and waited half a day!
I would certainly recommend two sets of chains if you plan on hitting the slopes or spend a lot of time trying to get places. Having the chains gives you all the advantages of not having them and then some! I don't think the fun should stop because the snow flies. Get prepared and get out there, its an adventure!
I was very thankful to have chains a couple times on just one trip. I wouldn't go out in these mountains without them. My only regret is that I didn't know better chains existed! I will be budgeting for those clothiers next season for sure.
I also gather my own firewood and meat so the weight I sometimes accumulate on the return trip really nullifies my floating abilities! I would also think that many expo rigs are so heavy and narrow tired that the floating is nothing like what some guys can accomplish.
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Metcalf
Expedition Leader
That said, I would love to see a non chained 4x4 start, stop and easily creep up a 30 degree slope equivalent to a packed ski slope at 3 or 4 MPH with street legal tires. I say it can not be done with street legal tires on a normal vehicle, regardless of how aired down the tires are.
30 degree? Or 30 percent?
In the right conditions stuff like this is possible with the proper setup. This would require gearing in excess of 100:1 in my experience, 2 psi in the tires, and generally a properly set up vehicle with a front heavy weight bias. All my experience is out west. I have never been in a situation where I have been passed by someone with chains. Maybe things are different out east? I honestly don't know. The only thing that turns us around on snow trips is when the trail is side hill drifted. Even Kristi snowcat's with there leveling track system cannot do stuff like that. You either have to blade it flat or find another way around.
My experience is that a properly chained 4x4 will always do better on a mid winter trail witha foot of snow and compressed snow/ice under it than a non chained vehicle. Do you disagree with that?
I agree that with only a foot of snow that chains are a completely viable option. I have never had issues in a foot of snow airing down though. From what I have witnessed over the years chains are generally harder on the trail and harder on the vehicle. Again, just what I have noticed. Most of the people over the years that have chained up to go out with us scummed to airing down later that day. It seems to be much more fluid and smooth than chains.
I would be interesting to do some controlled experiments. Maybe Overland Journal would like to do something like this?
The only time I see chains being a big help is on pure ice. Even worse, pure ice that has been in the sun for a bit with a little water on top. Stuff like that is deadly. Fortunately for me I haven't come across a situation like that. I do think that Studs or great snow tires would be a great way to deal satisfactorily with this without the weight penalty of chains.
Now I just want to state for the Audience.....
I am NOT saying my way works better than anything else. I am just stating my opinion on the subject that I have formed from off road driving in my area. It is perfectly plausible that other techniques work better in other areas and in other conditions. I am only stating what I have witnessed, learned, and found works for me.
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to pack this thread with good information, point, counter-point, etc. I hope it will continue to grow into a great thread that can be used for reference.
30 degree? Or 30 percent?
In the right conditions stuff like this is possible with the proper setup. This would require gearing in excess of 100:1 in my experience, 2 psi in the tires, and generally a properly set up vehicle with a front heavy weight bias. All my experience is out west. I have never been in a situation where I have been passed by someone with chains. Maybe things are different out east? I honestly don't know. The only thing that turns us around on snow trips is when the trail is side hill drifted. Even Kristi snowcat's with there leveling track system cannot do stuff like that. You either have to blade it flat or find another way around.
My experience is that a properly chained 4x4 will always do better on a mid winter trail witha foot of snow and compressed snow/ice under it than a non chained vehicle. Do you disagree with that?
I agree that with only a foot of snow that chains are a completely viable option. I have never had issues in a foot of snow airing down though. From what I have witnessed over the years chains are generally harder on the trail and harder on the vehicle. Again, just what I have noticed. Most of the people over the years that have chained up to go out with us scummed to airing down later that day. It seems to be much more fluid and smooth than chains.
I would be interesting to do some controlled experiments. Maybe Overland Journal would like to do something like this?
The only time I see chains being a big help is on pure ice. Even worse, pure ice that has been in the sun for a bit with a little water on top. Stuff like that is deadly. Fortunately for me I haven't come across a situation like that. I do think that Studs or great snow tires would be a great way to deal satisfactorily with this without the weight penalty of chains.
Now I just want to state for the Audience.....
I am NOT saying my way works better than anything else. I am just stating my opinion on the subject that I have formed from off road driving in my area. It is perfectly plausible that other techniques work better in other areas and in other conditions. I am only stating what I have witnessed, learned, and found works for me.
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to pack this thread with good information, point, counter-point, etc. I hope it will continue to grow into a great thread that can be used for reference.
007
Explorer
I run into the icy slopes issue constantly out here. During the hunting season its the worst because you have plenty of guys packing the snow into ice wherever they can possibly get.
There are many places where studs and siped snow tires would easily slide off, heck even v-bar chains are still sketchy in a lot of places.
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
007, Run what works for you brother! If that is a common problem where you are then chains sound like a solution.
What I am trying to convey in this thread is that there is NOT only one way to do things. I want people to have as much knowledge as they can. Every person needs to weigh the pro's and con's then decide what they want to do. Are chains worth the weight? Can I air down without having to worry about beads? Can I air back up? How do I deal with bead problems?
Now for some fun....
You can always go for 500+ hp and 44" plus tires aka...the wheeled snowmobile!
http://www.youtube.com/user/gocms#p/u/3/fKWKetlYUUA
What I am trying to convey in this thread is that there is NOT only one way to do things. I want people to have as much knowledge as they can. Every person needs to weigh the pro's and con's then decide what they want to do. Are chains worth the weight? Can I air down without having to worry about beads? Can I air back up? How do I deal with bead problems?
Now for some fun....
You can always go for 500+ hp and 44" plus tires
aka...the wheeled snowmobile! http://www.youtube.com/user/gocms#p/u/3/fKWKetlYUUA
skysix
Adventurer
Have done many many miles on ice roads in the arctic. Never needed chains on them. DID need them however on some of the portages where the road got polished by spinning tires. Usually on south facing 20-30% slopes with mud base under the ice and in the spring-ish when things soften up during the day.