Tired of Old Junk but no Interest in Newer 4x4s

[calicamper]

Anyone know of a way to ween yourself off old Toyota 4x4s? I think I may have a problem with them. Can't bring myself to sell the LC; I always back out of deals.

Took me a long time to sell the J80. In the end I didn’t miss it. Get a trail ebike toss it on the back of a 2door convertible. Best fun on and off pavement ?

 

[dllawson819]

Anyone know of a way to ween yourself off old Toyota 4x4s? I think I may have a problem with them. Can't bring myself to sell the LC; I always back out of deals.

A GX470 should do the trick! : )

 

[calicamper]

A GX470 should do the trick! : )

LOL I was so close to doing that even had an offer on an over priced one. In the end soo glad the dealer tried to pull the most blatant BS and I walked away. Would have only been slightly better than the J80 regarding power and comfort and the same lousy mileage and range ?. The 07 Sequoia was a far better weening vehicle in every way?. Less $ and 1/2 the miles too!

 

[DaveInDenver]

I'm not a mechanic and I've never owned a 22re, but a headgasket every 125k seems a bit extreme, in fact that sounds more like the 3.slow that came in those pickups. I've also heard people say the top end should be rebuilt every 150k on the 1fz, but plenty have over twice that on the original gasket. Even the most meticulous owners probably wouldn't open it up as soon as they hit a certain mileage without any signs of an issue.

My basis for saying that was the observation of the HG condition at ~187k. It hadn't started leaking but it wouldn't have been long before it did. So I'm just suggesting that on the first generation of Toyota iron blocks and alloy heads (22R, 1FZ, 3VZ, etc) they hadn't completely figured out the dynamics. The 3VZ (3.0L) head gasket issues were probably exacerbated due to #5 being a hot spot and it was mostly solved by dialing in the composition of the MLS gaskets to the point that the 5VZ (3.4L), the short block of which was very similar to the 3VZ, didn't have the same extent of problems. Also, not all 3.0L engines went bad and some do now have 300K on the factory HG. The 5VZ and 1GR (4.0L) still had lingering HG issues but it's down to rare. I'm not saying that doing a preventative HG and timing on a 22R-E is absolutely critical. Just that it's not a terribly difficult job for the peace of mind. The only hard part is to do it right requires dropping the oil pan, which is a PITA with IFS if you have it still, and getting it to seal back up is a little bit of concern. On a V6 or V8 I would weigh the risk/benefit of such an aggressive HG approach differently, so I'm thinking specifically 22R. I'm also a zealot about using Toyota Red (silicate-free) coolant, which should have been beneficial to HG life but there was clear evidence that the HG was pretty far along in failing between #3 and #4. I suppose it would be better to say to at least inspect well down in the timing cover when you do your periodic valve lash adjustments and to do leak-down compression tests at the same time.

 

[bkg]

My basis for saying that was the observation of the HG condition at ~187k. It hadn't started leaking but it wouldn't have been long before it did. So I'm just suggesting that on the first generation of Toyota iron blocks and alloy heads (22R, 1FZ, 3VZ, etc) they hadn't completely figured out the dynamics. The 3VZ (3.0L) head gasket issues were probably exacerbated due to #5 being a hot spot and it was mostly solved by dialing in the composition of the MLS gaskets to the point that the 5VZ (3.4L), the short block of which was very similar to the 3VZ, didn't have the same extent of problems. Also, not all 3.0L engines went bad and some do now have 300K on the factory HG. The 5VZ and 1GR (4.0L) still had lingering HG issues but it's down to rare. I'm not saying that doing a preventative HG and timing on a 22R-E is absolutely critical. Just that it's not a terribly difficult job for the peace of mind. The only hard part is to do it right requires dropping the oil pan, which is a PITA with IFS if you have it still, and getting it to seal back up is a little bit of concern. On a V6 or V8 I would weigh the risk/benefit of such an aggressive HG approach differently, so I'm thinking specifically 22R. I'm also a zealot about using Toyota Red (silicate-free) coolant, which should have been beneficial to HG life but there was clear evidence that the HG was pretty far along in failing between #3 and #4. I suppose it would be better to say to at least inspect well down in the timing cover when you do your periodic valve lash adjustments and to do leak-down compression tests at the same time.

??? never dropped a pan for a HG on a 22rx...

IMHO, the biggest PITA is the wire and hose routing that forces the intake to be taken off in pieces...

 

[Ozark_Prowler]

??? never dropped a pan for a HG on a 22rx...

IMHO, the biggest PITA is the wire and hose routing that forces the intake to be taken off in pieces...

Yea I’ve heard the older pickups are kinda crazy with all the vacuum lines going everywhere.

My basis for saying that was the observation of the HG condition at ~187k. It hadn't started leaking but it wouldn't have been long before it did. So I'm just suggesting that on the first generation of Toyota iron blocks and alloy heads (22R, 1FZ, 3VZ, etc) they hadn't completely figured out the dynamics. The 3VZ (3.0L) head gasket issues were probably exacerbated due to #5 being a hot spot and it was mostly solved by dialing in the composition of the MLS gaskets to the point that the 5VZ (3.4L), the short block of which was very similar to the 3VZ, didn't have the same extent of problems. Also, not all 3.0L engines went bad and some do now have 300K on the factory HG. The 5VZ and 1GR (4.0L) still had lingering HG issues but it's down to rare. I'm not saying that doing a preventative HG and timing on a 22R-E is absolutely critical. Just that it's not a terribly difficult job for the peace of mind. The only hard part is to do it right requires dropping the oil pan, which is a PITA with IFS if you have it still, and getting it to seal back up is a little bit of concern. On a V6 or V8 I would weigh the risk/benefit of such an aggressive HG approach differently, so I'm thinking specifically 22R. I'm also a zealot about using Toyota Red (silicate-free) coolant, which should have been beneficial to HG life but there was clear evidence that the HG was pretty far along in failing between #3 and #4. I suppose it would be better to say to at least inspect well down in the timing cover when you do your periodic valve lash adjustments and to do leak-down compression tests at the same time.

I’m gonna say most 22re owners were nowhere near as meticulous with maintenance as you are. Most people don’t even know what valves are, much less they need adjusting. Especially nowadays, valve adjustments and “tune-ups” seem really outdated. You don’t hear about stuff like that on the 2tr-fe and 2gr-fe, but none of the “don’t make ‘em like they used to” people seem to mention that. I’m not sure if there’s any newer engines that call for that kind of maintenance.

 

[Ozark_Prowler]

My basis for saying that was the observation of the HG condition at ~187k. It hadn't started leaking but it wouldn't have been long before it did. So I'm just suggesting that on the first generation of Toyota iron blocks and alloy heads (22R, 1FZ, 3VZ, etc) they hadn't completely figured out the dynamics. The 3VZ (3.0L) head gasket issues were probably exacerbated due to #5 being a hot spot and it was mostly solved by dialing in the composition of the MLS gaskets to the point that the 5VZ (3.4L), the short block of which was very similar to the 3VZ, didn't have the same extent of problems. Also, not all 3.0L engines went bad and some do now have 300K on the factory HG. The 5VZ and 1GR (4.0L) still had lingering HG issues but it's down to rare. I'm not saying that doing a preventative HG and timing on a 22R-E is absolutely critical. Just that it's not a terribly difficult job for the peace of mind. The only hard part is to do it right requires dropping the oil pan, which is a PITA with IFS if you have it still, and getting it to seal back up is a little bit of concern. On a V6 or V8 I would weigh the risk/benefit of such an aggressive HG approach differently, so I'm thinking specifically 22R. I'm also a zealot about using Toyota Red (silicate-free) coolant, which should have been beneficial to HG life but there was clear evidence that the HG was pretty far along in failing between #3 and #4. I suppose it would be better to say to at least inspect well down in the timing cover when you do your periodic valve lash adjustments and to do leak-down compression tests at the same time.

Also I’d be curious to see what the failure rates are for the 3VZ as opposed to the 22re, 5vz, 1fz, etc. I was under the impression the 3.slow was like the older Subaru EJ25s in that HG leaks are all but inevitable. A lot of those Subaru motors tend to leak externally, and people sometimes drive them like that for years.

Of course there’s a similar HG debate on the 1fz over on mud and elsewhere. On that one it seems like luck of the draw whether you’ll have any issues within 300k miles or so. They like to run hot near Cyl 6.

 

[nickw]

Yeah they're still solid engines for their day, but I don't think they deserve their "unkillable" legend. They're very much killable.

I also still lke the 1fz-fe even with all its flaws and quirks, but people talk about them like they were hand-built by angels or something.

Agreed with you there! Same things with the old 2f engines....I had one in my 78 FJ40 years ago, awesome robust engine, could in theory go 100k's of miles, but they needed work OFTEN to run properly. Always something to screw with, carb rebuilt, vaccuum line (must be 50 of them) to fix, tune and try to find OEM parts....which was hard enough 10+ years ago and is only getting harder. Aftermarket carbs were available, but deviating to far from stock means harder to get parts for....

95% of Cruisers these days with big miles and lots of PM I wouldn't trust since they have many non OEM parts at this point....good short term, but they are not going to last (IMO) like the original rigs.

The OEM cruisers got their reputation from the OEM builder in Japan...aka Toyota, but backyard mech, working on a 300k J80 with parts from Napa / random online merchant is not the same vehicle as Toyota intended.

 

[DaveInDenver]

??? never dropped a pan for a HG on a 22rx...

IMHO, the biggest PITA is the wire and hose routing that forces the intake to be taken off in pieces...

Not HG, for the timing chain.

 

[Sooper Camper]

The merc is cheaper to service than the Subaru

Funny how that works, isn't it. I've got a couple early 2000's high mileage (near or over 200k) V8's Benzos...love them. They are way simpler to work on than you'd expect, and the common service parts are way cheaper than you'd think, given the overall quality of the vehicle.

 

[Arktikos]

Also I’d be curious to see what the failure rates are for the 3VZ as opposed to the 22re, 5vz, 1fz, etc. I was under the impression the 3.slow was like the older Subaru EJ25s in that HG leaks are all but inevitable. A lot of those Subaru motors tend to leak externally, and people sometimes drive them like that for years.

Of course there’s a similar HG debate on the 1fz over on mud and elsewhere. On that one it seems like luck of the draw whether you’ll have any issues within 300k miles or so. They like to run hot near Cyl 6.

3VZE obviously had a higher fail rate than normal, hence the "recall"or whatever it was called. I've owned two 22RE trucks. One I purchased with blown HG for cheap. The other I sold for cheap and the new owner blew HG after driving it for 10 years without changing the oil.

Also bought a 3VZE that already had the HG repaired by Toyota. Once repaired correctly with the new gasket they're probably as reliable as any other Toyota engine. BTW, Toyota 3.4's blow headgaskets, so do 4.0's. EJ25's definitely have a bad rep compared to the EJ22 in this regard. Anyway, maintain your cooling system and don't worry about the damn HG IMO.

 

[Ozark_Prowler]

3VZE obviously had a higher fail rate than normal, hence the "recall"or whatever it was called. I've owned two 22RE trucks. One I purchased with blown HG for cheap. The other I sold for cheap and the new owner blew HG after driving it for 10 years without changing the oil.

Also bought a 3VZE that already had the HG repaired by Toyota. Once repaired correctly with the new gasket they're probably as reliable as any other Toyota engine. BTW, Toyota 3.4's blow headgaskets, so do 4.0's. EJ25's definitely have a bad rep compared to the EJ22 in this regard. Anyway, maintain your cooling system and don't worry about the damn HG IMO.

He probably just added oil since those old 22re's leak and burn so much oil it's like a continuous oil change system lol. But yea Toyota seemed to have a hard time nailing down the Iron block/Al head design. IMO you could make a case for the 2gr-fe and 2tr-fe, and I guess the newest 4.0s for being the most reliable they've ever made, since most of the quirks had been worked out by then.

 

[direwolf82]

I'm tired of dealing with all the headaches associated with older 4x4 trucks like my current 1997 Land Cruiser and my old 1998 Tacoma. for some reason it seems like these older trucks are just endless moneypits and always cost an arm and a leg to fix. I like Tacomas, but the frames are junk and they all have shot suspensions and need a ton of work since nobody bothers to maintain them.

Meanwhile, modern 4x4s are junk IMO, or at east just not fun. The new Tacoma literally has a Camry drivetrain, and the new Bronco is all bark and no bite with its pathetic front end. Newer Jeeps just don't interest me, in fact any four wheel drive without a proper manual transfer case lever doesn't do it for me.

After owning arguably the ultimate 4x4 truck ever brought to the US in the 80 series Land Cruiser, it might be the end of the road. The repairs are just adding up too quick and it feels like it's time to cut my losses. Running trails is fun and all, but I hardly get to enjoy the LC anyway and it just doesn't seem worth all the heartache.

Anybody else in a similar boat? I'm about ready to give up and get another Subaru, at least then I can have another manual gearbox.

It sounds like you need to give up on off roading.
If you don't want a new one and don't want an old one it's not like you have many more options especially when it sounds like you don't have the money to buy something new that you don't want or pay to have your current rig gone through and rebuilt, you don't want to spend money on fixing anything anymore.
If I was you I'd start fixing up the old truck myself, I pulled the inline 6 out of my old jeep and put a 350 I assembled together out of random parts in the garage and an old dead work truck in it, made a complete new 12v wiring harness, upgrade to power brakes and power steering, replaced all bulbs, stiffened the frame and some other stuff. No real issues since the rebuild and it cost me less than 5 grand.
Your other option is start riding a bus, if you don't like the new truck options and you don't want to pay to maintain what you've got then the only other option really is not drive anything, all vehicles will need maintenance and you generally have to pay whether it's a new vehicle or an older one.
Interesting that you don't want to pay for maintenance on a vehicle but you want to offroad it where everything gets beat up faster and needs repair sooner than a highway car, puts you in a conundrum huh?

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[direwolf82]

84 grand? Sure, for a brand new, fully optioned GMC Sierra k2500 Denali or Chevy K2500 High Country maybe. A new Jeep Wrangler Rubicon is in the 50's to 60. I dont know where that extra 24k comes from

EDIT: just priced out a brand new GMC Sierra K2500 HD Denali Crew Cab Long Bed -the most expensive platform - with every expensive option and reached $86,400.00 USD. How many people here are buying one of those?

Priced out new GMC Canyon AT4 with a mixed bag of options for between $43k and $48k and wasn't being shy with either. Could have gotten one for in the $30's. I do know these dont fit the OP's bill, but just talking typical new price here.

C'mon, man. If someone asks for advice and you want to throw numbers around, throw around real ones.

There is a rav4 for sale on a dealer lot for 100k now.
84 for a real vehicle sounds pretty cheap in comparison.

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[direwolf82]

actually... people make a lot of money using debt as a tool.


I'm anti-debt as the next person, but it is a tool that can be used to produce wealth and reduce risk.

And you missed the part about a (presumed newish) vehicle with payment can me more consistent on the budget than a "clunker" that may require a variable amount of repairs month over month.

In my experience it's cheaper to keep an older car going. My sister has a shiny new audi she's paying on, she also has a 4 thousand dollar repair bill coming on her few year old reliable car. I have an old 67 jeep that hasn't seriously broken down ever and a 03 Toyota that I've put over a grand into maintenance and repairs in the past year and am planning on spending another grand this month on.
So the oldest rig in the "fleet" is the cheapest to maintain.
But even the Toyota at 2 grand in repair and maintenance over a year is vastly cheaper than a monthly payment and I like to be able to afford the gas to take the trucks out in the woods more than I want to make a monthly payment.
I guess the best thing is to keep the older rig, invest in tools and learning how to do the stuff yourself.

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