Tundra vs 5.9 Cummins - Help!

[Ducky's Dad]

Check for any corrosion under the truck, Toyotas don't have the best track record there.

I think Toyota had a mandatory recall or buy-back of some sort on the Tundra corrosion problem. Mine is OK on the oil leak at 75K and no corrosion, but I'm in California.

 

[Clutch]

I think Toyota had a mandatory recall or buy-back of some sort on the Tundra corrosion problem. Mine is OK on the oil leak at 75K and no corrosion, but I'm in California.

That was for the 1st gen Tundras, not the the 2nd gen the OP is considering.

No manufacture is perfect, but at least Toyota stands behind their product and took care of it. We had old Fords back in PA that succumbed to rust rot...Ford didn't anything about it. That particular truck, which was bought new, was painted 3 times (and one bed replacement since the original rotted away) within 15 years, so it wasn't like we didn't take care of our stuff. Salt is a **********.

 

[Laps]

It's funny how two different people can draw two very different conclusions from the same study. Autoblog did an article on that very same University of Michigan study and concluded that total cost of ownership was lower for diesel vehicles over the longrun, primarily due to fuel savings and higher resale values: https://www.autoblog.com/2015/07/17/diesel-gas-total-cost-ownership/

The article you quoted was analyzing things from the fleet owner's perspective, which is likely a bit different from a private/individual owner.




The common definition of an investment is: an expenditure of resources (usually cash) with the expectation of future returns or profits. Seeing as how no one actually makes money through buying a regular car (obviously there are exceptions such as rare or very old vehicles), I'd argue that in the traditional sense a car purchase is not an investment. But if you want to forget semantics and pretend that buying a car is an investment, even you seem to realize that it isn't a good investment, as it is losing value the moment you "invest."



Operating costs are important, and I'm even willing to acknowledge that certain maintenance costs will be higher for a diesel vs a gasoline rig. However, I think you and others on here owe it to yourselves to actually calculate the those costs rather than throw out vague guesstimates. The issue is when it comes time to sell your depreciating asset (the vehicle), what will be the difference between the two in the money recouped from the sale? And what will be the difference in total fuel costs?

I've seen what both engine types will return in real life and the math I've done shows a distinct fuel savings advantage for the diesel in most driving situations that I encounter (to the tune of ~$1k-$1.4k a year). I suppose YMMV depending on driving habits, towing, modifications, traffic, ect. Do you suppose that the additional diesel maintenance costs per year will come anywhere close to negating that fuel savings? Based on what I've seen and figured, they don't.

As for resale values, I regularly see 10+ year old diesel Ram 2500's fetching a $6k-$7k premium (sometimes higher) over comparable gasoline trucks, and mind you the difference in original MSRP's between the two wasn't as great back then as it is nowadays. I guess time will tell if the newer 6.7l Cummins and 6.7l Powerstroke will have similar premiums 10 years from now. Also keep in mind, that the advertised MSRP and factory pricing for diesel trucks, or any truck, isn't the same as what the product actually sells for on the market. There are normally dealer incentives and negotiated pricing for those trucks. Just because Ram or Chevy advertises the diesel engine as a $8k-$9k option doesn't necessarily mean that there will be an $8k-$9k sale price gap between new diesel and gasoline trucks.

Thank you for bringing up some very valid points and I agree, but am perplexed about what these maintenance costs of a diesel over a gasoline engine truck are that is brought up here with regularity? My oil changes are done by me, for the cost of the oil and filter, which amounts to about $55. And beyond that what other issues are owners talking about regarding maintenance costs? Not sure what they are referring to exactly. Do you? And my trade in value on the 2000 Tundra vs the 2002 Ram that I had was much lower, and yes both trucks had almost exactly the same miles on the odometer. The Tundra had far worse gas mileage as well. That said, I have owned 4 gas motor trucks and two diesels, both RAMs, and would never choose a gas motored truck for serious hauling or towing, and for that matter, I drive my Ram almost daily, and it rides better than any of the other trucks I've owned.

 

[Regcabguy]

My oil change in the diesel cost 180$ in parts alone. Chew on that for a minute.

Doesn't include air filter either, which is 85$ btw. Fuel filters? I have 2. Coolant takes 30 gallons of distilled water to change, plus I think 8 gallons of coolant.

We could do this all day but let's just boil it down to this. Diesel isn't just a fuel it's a disease. If you can avoid it, do so. If you can't, don't expect it to pay you back. It won't.

My Cummins 5.9 uses $30 of Delo 15-40,a $15 Fleetguard oil filter. Air filter is $18.00(I buy six at a time). I change oil at 8K recommended by Blackstone Labs, air filter at 20K. $10 Baldwin fuel filter@15K. Not bad. Whole different ballgame with the 6.7's and especially the def models.
For hauling my 1800# wet popup around all the time I couldn't fathom a gasser.
If I ever sell the Northstar,an F-150 with the 5.0 will be in the driveway.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

That was for the 1st gen Tundras, not the the 2nd gen the OP is considering.

It seems that they had some problems with the 2007-08 Tundras, too. OP is considering that vintage of second gen Tundra.

...mail from Toyota regarding a Customer Satisfaction Campaign Notice for Corrosion-Resistant Compound (CRC) on 2007-2008 Tundras. Here's the main part of what the letter says:

Quote:
Toyota has received reports that, on certain 2007 through 2008 model year Tundra vehicles operated in cold climate areas with high road salt usage, excessive corrosion may be exhibited on the vehicle's frame. Toyota investigated these reports and determined that the frames on some vehicles may not have adequate corrosion resistant protection. This combined with prolonged exposure to other environmental factors may contribute to the development of excessive corrosion on the frame of some vehicles....

What is Toyota going to do for you?

Any Toyota dealer will inspect the condition of the frame on your vehicle for excessive corrosion. Depending on the results of the inspection, one of the following will occur:

i) if excessive corrosion is not found, the dealer will apply a corrosion-resistant compound (CRC) to the frame at no charge to you. The CRC will be applied to both external and internal surfaces of the frame to enhance corrosion protection of the Tundra's frame.

ii) If the inspection of the vehicle confirms excessive corrosion to the frame, Toyota will, as necessary provide an appropriate remedy at no charge to you.

In addition, as the application of the CRC or any frame repair may take one or two days, your Toyota dealership will arrange alternative transportation as required at no charge to you.

http://www.tundratalk.net/forums/tu...orrosion-resistant-compound-crc-campaign.html

My Tundra is a 2008 CrewMax and I have not heard anything from Toyota about corrosion treatment, but it's never an issue around here.

 

[Dalko43]

Thank you for bringing up some very valid points and I agree, but am perplexed about what these maintenance costs of a diesel over a gasoline engine truck are that is brought up here with regularity? My oil changes are done by me, for the cost of the oil and filter, which amounts to about $55. And beyond that what other issues are owners talking about regarding maintenance costs? Not sure what they are referring to exactly. Do you? And my trade in value on the 2000 Tundra vs the 2002 Ram that I had was much lower, and yes both trucks had almost exactly the same miles on the odometer. The Tundra had far worse gas mileage as well. That said, I have owned 4 gas motor trucks and two diesels, both RAMs, and would never choose a gas motored truck for serious hauling or towing, and for that matter, I drive my Ram almost daily, and it rides better than any of the other trucks I've owned.

For the newer 6.7l cummins, a rough estimate of the annual operating costs (minus fuel expenditure), assuming 15k miles per year: $81 oil change (assuming 1 change/15k and 5w-40 synthetic); $13.50 oil filter; fuel filter (newer 6.7l cummins has two) $110; $69 DEF (YMMV, but 1,000 gallons per mile is noted for moderate driving). Rough estimate of total = ~$273

For something comparable like a 6.4l v8 Hemi and similar driving assumptions: $64 oil change (assuming synthetic and 2 changes per 15k); $20 oil filters (again 2x per 15k). Total ~$84.

This is assuming DIY maintenance for both (owners run the risk of getting ripped off with routine maintenance through the dealer and prices can vary widely depending on location). All calculations were based on commonly available pricing for parts/resources and factory recommendations on change interval. This is just basic annual maintenance; I'm not getting into the weeds on radiator flushes, brake changes, and other big ticket items. Also, I'm not bringing up catastrophic malfunctions or any other horror stories people want to embellish, just annual fixed operating costs based on factory recommendations. Someone feel free to chime in if I forgot something, but I'm seeing a grand total difference of ~$189/year between the two...so yes a modern diesel costs more per year to operate (excluding fuel), but the price difference isn't as bad as some here make it out to be. And even putting aside the fuel savings and greater resale value realized by diesel on the back end of ownership, I wouldn't mind spending $189 extra per year to have the capabilities of a diesel.

Laps, not sure which year of vehicle you have, but I'd imagine the older 5.9's had even less operating costs due to the lack of DEF and only 1 fuel filter.

 

[IdaSHO]

It's funny how two different people can draw two very different conclusions from the same study. Autoblog did an article on that very same University of Michigan study and concluded that total cost of ownership was lower for diesel vehicles over the longrun, primarily due to fuel savings and higher resale values: https://www.autoblog.com/2015/07/17/diesel-gas-total-cost-ownership/

To be clear, those are NOT the same study as you assume.

The one I linked to was a recent study, done by FLEET owners, specifically for trucks.

The one you linked is based upon 6+ year old data, and covers cars and trucks.

Again, not the same, so don't even try to pretend they are.


Here's some more reading material for you.

Recent data, and even hosted on a diesel slanted site....

But it does a great job of showing how the gassers have closed the gap on the entire "cheaper to operate" diesel situation.

In short, a diesel simply doesn't pencil out when compared to a gasser, especially in trucks.

http://www.dieselarmy.com/news/could-the-diesel-advantage-be-gone-new-study-has-shocking-results/

 

[Paddy]

My Cummins 5.9 uses $30 of Delo 15-40,a $15 Fleetguard oil filter. Air filter is $18.00(I buy six at a time). I change oil at 8K recommended by Blackstone Labs, air filter at 20K. $10 Baldwin fuel filter@15K. Not bad. Whole different ballgame with the 6.7's and especially the def models.
For hauling my 1800# wet popup around all the time I couldn't fathom a gasser.
If I ever sell the Northstar,an F-150 with the 5.0 will be in the driveway.

Well thats cool on that. I guess my 6.0 is a little needy compared to some other models. Partly my doing, as I redesigned the entire oil cooling and filtration system. But it's a mean machine when it gets its spool on.

I actually looked around at 55 gal drum oil prices today because, I have a forklift. Looks like "full" syn cj-4 can be had for about 12$/gal

 

[toylandcruiser]

My oil change in the diesel cost 180$ in parts alone. Chew on that for a minute.

Doesn't include air filter either, which is 85$ btw. Fuel filters? I have 2. Coolant takes 30 gallons of distilled water to change, plus I think 8 gallons of coolant.

We could do this all day but let's just boil it down to this. Diesel isn't just a fuel it's a disease. If you can avoid it, do so. If you can't, don't expect it to pay you back. It won't.

I think you mean quarts. Not gallons.

 

[jreilly2120]

Wow. Stepped away from this for the weekend to go camping. Ironically, just before the arguing started I decided to go with the cummins. Doing 30-40k a year I don't see a tundra lasting me long enough to make it worth it if I buy it with high miles. :lurk:

Anyone run a high mileage cummins and had a bad experience?

 

[Clutch]

It seems that they had some problems with the 2007-08 Tundras, too. OP is considering that vintage of second gen Tundra.

http://www.tundratalk.net/forums/tu...orrosion-resistant-compound-crc-campaign.html

My Tundra is a 2008 CrewMax and I have not heard anything from Toyota about corrosion treatment, but it's never an issue around here.

Ahhh, thanks, didn't know that.

My Tacoma falls under the recall too, but mine is very clean and darn near rust free...though I get under there and use a rust inhibitor. Where-as I assume most don't.

 

[Laps]

For the newer 6.7l cummins, a rough estimate of the annual operating costs (minus fuel expenditure), assuming 15k miles per year: $81 oil change (assuming 1 change/15k and 5w-40 synthetic); $13.50 oil filter; fuel filter (newer 6.7l cummins has two) $110; $69 DEF (YMMV, but 1,000 gallons per mile is noted for moderate driving). Rough estimate of total = ~$273

For something comparable like a 6.4l v8 Hemi and similar driving assumptions: $64 oil change (assuming synthetic and 2 changes per 15k); $20 oil filters (again 2x per 15k). Total ~$84.

This is assuming DIY maintenance for both (owners run the risk of getting ripped off with routine maintenance through the dealer and prices can vary widely depending on location). All calculations were based on commonly available pricing for parts/resources and factory recommendations on change interval. This is just basic annual maintenance; I'm not getting into the weeds on radiator flushes, brake changes, and other big ticket items. Also, I'm not bringing up catastrophic malfunctions or any other horror stories people want to embellish, just annual fixed operating costs based on factory recommendations. Someone feel free to chime in if I forgot something, but I'm seeing a grand total difference of ~$189/year between the two...so yes a modern diesel costs more per year to operate (excluding fuel), but the price difference isn't as bad as some here make it out to be. And even putting aside the fuel savings and greater resale value realized by diesel on the back end of ownership, I wouldn't mind spending $189 extra per year to have the capabilities of a diesel.

Laps, not sure which year of vehicle you have, but I'd imagine the older 5.9's had even less operating costs due to the lack of DEF and only 1 fuel filter.

My RAM truck is pre DEF (its a 2012) and it originally had just a single fuel filter, I added the severe duty fuel filter kit. I drive about 9000 miles per year and so my maintenance costs are about $150 for the necessary items mentioned, plus another $65 for the extra fuel filter. The air filter is a S&B with prefilter wrap and doesn't need changing except for about every 35,000 miles. I do my own maintenance which saves a lot of money compared to what a dealer would charge.

So you might want to consider a Cummins RAM after all! Pre DEF that is.....

 

[mikekey]

Always wondered why Toyota couldn't be bothered to put a rear sway bar on the Tundra.

 

[Dalko43]

To be clear, those are NOT the same study as you assume.

The one I linked to was a recent study, done by FLEET owners, specifically for trucks.

The one you linked is based upon 6+ year old data, and covers cars and trucks.

Both articles made reference to a study conducted by the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute (conducted in 2013).

Here's some more reading material for you.

Recent data, and even hosted on a diesel slanted site....

But it does a great job of showing how the gassers have closed the gap on the entire "cheaper to operate" diesel situation.

In short, a diesel simply doesn't pencil out when compared to a gasser, especially in trucks.

http://www.dieselarmy.com/news/could-the-diesel-advantage-be-gone-new-study-has-shocking-results/

I encourage you to actually read the results and fine print in that data table. That Vincentric study assumes that over 5 years of driving, 15k miles a year, a diesel Ram 2500, for example, actually costs $292 more in fuel relative to its gasoline counterpart. The study claims that Ford and GM diesel trucks have even higher fuel costs relative to their gasoline counterparts. I'm very curious to know where they got their fuel data from, because based on the real world mpg I've seen and what others have seen, the diesel trucks can save anywhere from $400 to over $1k in fuel costs per year (mpg varies widely depending on driving habits). I also find it amusing that you're relying on internet sites to make your point rather than your own personal experience.

 

[jreilly2120]

If we're going to bicker, lets make it over my situation so at least somebody benefits. Take that 15k miles/ 292$ in savings and double or triple it and you're looking at 600-900$ a year. Assuming the mileage numbers are accurate that's about what I'd be seeing. Not everyone drives 12-15k miles a year.