UZJ100 vs. Tacoma Doublecab

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
pskhaat said:
I agree, though torsion is said to have longer life? (honest question)
Mine went 175K miles, with about 60K of that with lift cranked in. The ARB bumper was what did them in, just couldn't hold the lift anymore. I still have them, they hadn't broken yet. It was just that 15 year-old 22.5mm torsions no longer had the spring rate to hold the extra weight (they were definitely tired).
 

Scott Brady

Founder
Mainly it is room for the larger shock (I have never driven a UZJ100 that was not under dampened) and how a coil-over transfers load the the chassis. The UZJ screams for a coil-over, a really, really big one :elkgrin:
 

Brian894x4

Explorer
Here's something kind of interesting. As some of you may know, the Tacoma was used in Afghanistan by the U.S. military in the early part of the war by Special Forces. These were the U.S. specs Tacos sourced from a particular dealer somewhere near Fort Campbell and then outfitted with things like infrared lights. They had a cheap winch mount, winch, roll bar, and an M60 mount and has things like interior lights and door buzzers and radios disconnected, but were otherwise completely stock as far as I know.

As you can see from the pics, these rigs were probably severely overloaded, but served their purpose and worked pretty well. However…

From what I've been told, they're all out of service now, because the front suspensions completely fell apart after only a few months. Exactly what happened is apparently classified. Someone emailed me some photos of damaged Tacomas, but I was later asked by the military guys to remove them from the website as apparently even the damage was classified information. And the few guys I've talked too, wouldn't divulge exactly which parts on the Tacoma front end failed, so I don't have any details. Since I assume the military is no longer using Tacomas over there, maybe they are less sensative about the damage info and we can find out somehow.

When you consider that 20 year Hilux trucks, including some IFS models and Land Cruisers of all types, including IFS LC100s are still roaming the deserts in Afghanistan and Iraq, it appears to me that there's evidence that the torsion bar IFS mini-trucks and Land Cruiser 100s do have an advantage in terms of durability and longevity over the 1st gen Taco suspension.

However, most of us will likely never put a Tacoma through what they did in Afghanistan, so in terms of we use them for, the Tacoma is a great rig and I wouldn't hesitate to own one. I've driven a 2001 model extensively and on a few long trips and they are great rigs, but if my life had to depend on of the two vehicles, I'd rather be in the LC100.

As far as which one to own, the Tacoma has a lot of advantages when it comes to over all cost buy and operate.

Here's a U.S. spec Tacoma in Afghanistan. And an IFS LC100 somewhere in the middle east outfitted for combat.
 
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Bergger

Explorer
If our special forces had been given basically stock Hilux trucks I'm fairly confident that they would have been put out of commission as well. As a military member I know how hard we drive and treat our vehicles. Heck I've broken more than 1 Humvee in my time. I would not be surprised if they stopped using the Tacos due to a lack of spare parts and local mechanical knowledge. I think the reason you still see more old LCs and Hiluxs driving around out there is just because that is traditionally what has been exported, ie the parts and experience in fixing them is more prevalent. Also the forces still using them probably don't have the resources to replace them as easily as we do. Just my $.02.

If you every get those pics of the damage to the tacos and the reasons for removing them please let us know. I am curious as well.
 

Brian894x4

Explorer
Very good point on the parts. I do seem to recall that parts was an issue, since literally nothing is interchangable between a Tacoma and Hilux. Once you blow a rack and pinion, you're pretty much done. Even a blown tie-rod end, which seems to be fairly common, even over here, will sideline any Taco over there.

Where the Tacos really shined over there was the 3.4 V-6 which was way more powerful and faster than any Hilux and much quieter than both the Humvees and Hiluxes. I think that was really the primary reason for getting the Tacos in the first place. When you're only a couple of guys and a couple of trucks out there in the Afghan mountains by yourself, speed and stealth were a matter of life and death.

I erased the pics per their request so I don't even have copies of them. There was no visible suspension damage that I could see. It was mostly pics of Tacos full of bullet and shrapnel holes and some were stripped.
 
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I can only guess at the reasons the combat versions were mothballed, but I think I have some pretty good guesses based on my knowledge of the Tundra and its similarity to the Tacoma.

The Tundra takes its entire drivetrain aft of the engine from the Tacoma and other small engine/drivetrain/payload Toyotas...yes, all of it including the transmission...with the exception of the inner CV joints, which are much larger on the Tundra. Factory unlocked rears are identical in the two trucks with the exception of wms dimension...the differentials are identical.

Packed & loaded Tundras weigh in about the same as a packed & loaded 100...three tons. In fact, the engine in the Tundra (2UZFE) is mirrored in several other Toyotas equipped with 1UZ and 3UZ engines, the Tundra takes its engine originally from the LC and similar engines were used in a couple sports cars in different configurations (four bolt mains, different shape to the rods, etc).

I suspect that a packed, loaded, armored, combat equipped Tacoma is NOT light, not at all. In normal use, a Tundra will dump the front differential when the wheels are spun overmuch, it will also dump both inner and outer cv joints and the front halfshafts. The Tacoma has an even smaller inner CV joint. The upper ball joints are very, very small at the neck, and the lower ball joints are sturdy but were swapped later in production for a larger joint and wider footprint. In addition, the spindles' weak spot is near the top where the upper ball joint mounts. While the lower ball joint takes the majority of the shock when the suspension cycles, the tire is outboard of both joints, putting a shear load across the neck of the upper ball joint and a bending load on the spindle when the weight of the truck is over the wheel--more so and much worst when the front end hits the bump stops. It's just the nature of the setup, that's how it works--when the upper joint goes, the wheel flops in to the wheel well, not out. In addition, while the tie rods, steering shaft, and rack/pinion are fairly sturdy, they will not handle constant abuse from things like in-place turns with the brakes locked, side shock loading and other things that are 4WD no-nos. In a combat situation, I can see the stock front end of a Tacoma quickly being overrun...probably a matter of months...not because the front suspension and steering were poorly designed, but because they were meant for highway travel, paved roads, and slow travel over rough terrain, not constant high speed service over rough terrain. They can be built for it, but that costs money.

Back to your original question, I looked at used LCs when I was looking at the Tundra. I found a built LC on 35s, with 4links front and rear, just crazy, with all the interior amenities and a sunroof, 125K miles, asking 35K$. Considering the (easily) 15$K of modifications, it was a pretty good deal. However, I passed because of the plush interior, pretty paint job, completely enclosed passenger and cargo compartment, and all the other amenities that make an LC an LC. It's the same reason I passed on the 330xi...I knew I was only going to get it dirty, scratch the paint, throw stuff on the roof, all things I've done with the Tundra that I don't regret one bit. Muddy boots? Bed. Muddy dog? Bed. Sharp skis and snowboards? Bed. Dirty camping gear? Well, you get the idea. The LC was built for overland luxury. The trucks are built to Git'R'Done. WRT the frame cracking issue, there's a fix, but the first thing is to pack properly--weight to the front, light to the rear. Hanging everything off the ******** end of the truck is a sure way to cantilever weight from the front suspension and overload the frame to the point you need those frame reinforcements. If you need/want a swingout carrier, keep the frame and loading in mind. FWIW Brady's Taco has a near 50/50 distro and I suspect if not for the weight and higher CG it would handle similar to my roommate's S4.

Here is another consideration. Because of the payload constraints of an LC, you'll wind up hucking plenty of things on the roof, or off the back end. I've seen pictures here and other places of LCs with an obvious rear weight bias, cantilevered so bad that the front end was hardly flexing. I've also seen plenty of pictures of LCs with every liquid known to man strapped to the roof, along with the shovel, hilift, recovery ladders, spare tire, kitchen sink, and a few lead weights just to make sure the rig is properly top heavy. This doesn't matter if you're off to the dunes, beaches, backroads and flat dirt, but if you're planning on doing anything other than "light" offroad (ie flat, potholes, no steep climbs/descents, all climbs/descents are level, etc), it's something to consider. If you have someone tugging a tow strap to keep you from rolling because you have everything on the roof (or someone hanging from your bumper), you're on the wrong trail for your packing scheme. It doesn't mean you packed bad, or wrong, or anything, just that the trail you're driving isn't an appropriate place for the way you're packed...and vehicle choice will dictate how you pack. It's not specific to the 100, just an observation for any SUV...I've seen FJCs, 4Runners and Cherokees loaded the same way, with the same downfall.

With a bed, you can put all that stuff nice and low. There's a huge space you can lay out yourself to carry all your amenities and toys, like water at 8#/gal and fuel at 6#/gal...no need to drive down the trail in a skyscraper. It helps the mileage too...throwing it on the roof increases your wind resistance enough to knock the mileage back a few notches regardless the weight. Keeping it in the bed only helps the mileage. In addition, because you have payload space in front of and behind the wheels, you can pack heavy/front to light/rear and acquire a good 50/50 weight distribution and still keep everything in the bed.

Figure out what you want to do most, first, then break it down to SUV vs truck. It's why I wound up with a midsized truck with a generous back seat vs an SUV, and the same choices I made may push you more toward the 100. Of the LC, AC Tundra and DC Taco, the LC has the most comfortable back seat, and IMHO the two trucks had similar back seats...I'd hate to be stuck back there longer than a trip to the trailhead, or as a female friend of mine observed WRT the rear seat of an 00 model Tundra, "it's the most erect thing you'll sit on all night." Not comfortable for adults, but great as an additional storage space. Also FWIW if you look at the lines, a 100 is similar to a reg.cab short bed Taco, but everything is enclosed.

-Sean
 
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calamaridog

Expedition Leader
expeditionswest said:
Mainly it is room for the larger shock (I have never driven a UZJ100 that was not under dampened) and how a coil-over transfers load the the chassis. The UZJ screams for a coil-over, a really, really big one :elkgrin:

I can't agree more. If Toyota had designed this thing with a big coil over shock set-up I'd be in heaven. And the available shocks are totally inadequate. This truck is definitely under dampened.

The new Land Cruiser will join the modern area with a coil over shock set-up.

The solution appears to be custom shock mounts and work I can't afford right now.

Sometimes I do regret not getting a 4runner or Tundra instead, so I would have simple bolt-in suspension choices. Then again, there are things I love about the UZJ100 wagons.
 

ShottsCruisers

Explorer
Apples to oranges comparo.

I had both...my 2001 UZJ and a Donohoe/Deaver 2004 Double Cab.

I hated to drive the Taco....anywhere. It's gone and an Rx8 replaced it. I was PERSONAL, not meant as a cut-down.

My impressions of the Taco off-road were good. It was a wheel-lifter though it did very well. To discredit a Taco on the trail is dumb. They are very capable no doubt.

For me...the UZJ simply is an extention of my body on the trail. Equipped like mine is, it flexes better, is far more comfortable, it rarely lifts a wheel, it simply feels far more planted on the trail, it almost responds to my thoughts about where to go.

So, it really comes down to your needs and wants. Just don't sell the 100 short on capability because it's 3 tons, a bit wider (though shorter), and so luxurious. They will leave folks mouths hangin' open. :arabia:

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ShottsCruisers

Explorer
calamaridog said:
I can't agree more. If Toyota had designed this thing with a big coil over shock set-up I'd be in heaven. And the available shocks are totally inadequate. This truck is definitely under dampened.

WOW....I POSTED AND DIDN'T NOTICE PAGES 2 AND 3? DUHHHH!

OK...I know this is going to sound like Shotts has a pro-100 answer to EVERYTHING, but here it goes........

I actually prefer the softer under-damped ride by 10-fold compared to the stiffer ride of my 80's. It's this sweet off-road ride that keeps us wanting to take the 100 out. Now YES....if a little stiffer FRONT shock came out tomorrow, I'd buy it ASAP. Meanwhile, the places the under-dampened suspension bothers us are few and far between.

OK :REOutArchery02: Shotts
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
ShottsCruisers said:
it rarely lifts a wheel, it simply feels far more planted on the trail, it almost responds to my thoughts about where to go.
You know, this sounds pretty much like a Crusier vs. mini thing. My FJ40 was stock except for 2" springs and 31" ATs, but the weight distribution, gearing, engine power band let you just chug along. A lot less jarring and throttle jockeying. Most all mini trucks bounce more and need more momentum. Even with a Ultimate, they're just less smooth. For routine off highway driving (i.e. non-extreme crawling), I completely agree that the Cruiser is far more comfortable.
 
DaveInDenver said:
You know, this sounds pretty much like a Crusier vs. mini thing. My FJ40 was stock except for 2" springs and 31" ATs, but the weight distribution, gearing, engine power band let you just chug along. A lot less jarring and throttle jockeying. Most all mini trucks bounce more and need more momentum. Even with a Ultimate, they're just less smooth. For routine off highway driving (i.e. non-extreme crawling), I completely agree that the Cruiser is far more comfortable.
There are two things working against the trucks, leaf springs in the rear and a suspension intended to carry stuff vs provide a comfortable ride. It gets comfortable once it's loaded, but then you're still dealing with axle wrap from a factory spring-under. The part about carrying stuff is very important too...the trucks are heavily biased toward the front axle, until they're loaded. The SUVs have a better ratio out the door, but decline when they're loaded incorrectly (ie like a truck) which biases the weight heavily to the rear.

If the springs aren't carrying their intended load, it'll take momentum to clear any obstacle. My initial experience with unloaded stiff springs was pretty funny, I backed up on the flex ramp thinking I'd put on a good show, and I was glad nobody was watching because it flexed about as well as a buckboard--until it had 800 pounds in the bed. Then it rode like a caddy.
 

Scott Brady

Founder
We need to be careful comparing modifications instead of stock attributes. Stock to stock is a more meaning full comparison. With enough money, I can make a Honda Civic outperform the Taco and UZJ.

And luxury has nothing to do with performance. :wavey:
 

ShottsCruisers

Explorer
expeditionswest said:
We need to be careful comparing modifications instead of stock attributes. Stock to stock is a more meaning full comparison. With enough money, I can make a Honda Civic outperform the Taco and UZJ.

And luxury has nothing to do with performance. :wavey:

Stock? I'll take a 4WD TRD Taco over a 100 on the trail. That 100 front bumper is too big!
 

kcowyo

ExPo Original
expeditionswest said:
And luxury has nothing to do with performance. :wavey:

:bowdown:

This has been a great thread for comparisons. Thanks Scott for bringing it back to the original intent.
 

Scott Brady

Founder
John's UZJ100 is an awesome machine, and extremely comfortable to drive on the road and trail. It is dialed to his driving style and trail preferences too. I am just much of an 80 series / Tacoma kind of guy, mostly because of value and the cost of luxury equipment on payload.

A bare bones 105 with a diesel, now that! :jumping:
 

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