None of the banter directly above my post is in the spirit of Expedition Portal. Please act gentlemanly to one another. Thanks DJ
Warning re Jackery product quality/design
- Thread starter jhmoore
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67cj5
Man On a Mission
The Dometic PLB-40 is the better product for quite a few reasons, There are many good Power packs out there including the Jackery's but they all miss the point as to what these products are about, Which make the PLB-40 tick the right boxes for our intended purpose.
Also Jackery have some very odd claims that should be approached with Caution.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
A nice thing to see is that the Dometic tests to UN 38.3, which is a standard for transport of lithium batteries. It would nice to know for sure that means the unit itself and that it was all the tests. There are eight - shock, vibe, impact being important here - but also overcharge, thermal, etc.
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67cj5
Man On a Mission
Dave this is part of what I meant about the PLB-40 ticking all the right boxes, I have been checking up on and there is a DATA Sticker on the bottom that lists that it is UN38.3 Compliant and a few other important bits of info too, and I have the PLB-40's Safety DATA Sheet and the Bureau of Dangerous Goods Lithium Cell and Battery Test Summery if you need it,
We all Oooo'd and Arrr'd when we saw the Military Pack post a few pages ago But the PLB-40 is the closest Lithium Pack that you can buy that has Similar Quality of Military Grade Products without the mega price tag, It's pretty high spec and based on that alone along with the minimum 2000 cycle Rating at 80% DOD and the less you discharge it the more cycles you should get, IE if you only take it down to around 50% and above then then there is no reason why it should not achieve 5000 to 8000 cycles. Where as the Jackery 500 only has 500 cycles @ 80%
The PLB-40 also has Much Safer LiFePO4 Cells where as Jackery use Cheaper Li-ion NMC Cells,
See Here,
Batteries on Fire - Lion Energy
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JaSAn
Grumpy Old Man
UN 38.3 (similar to DOT HMR; 49 C.F.R., Parts 171-180) are for batteries only and in their shipping packaging. So unless you use your device in its shipping box not much help.
Better standards to check that deal with the product (in the US) are:
- ANSI/NEMA C18
- UL 1642
- UL 2595
and probably others; i've been out of the testing business for a while.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Indeed I had a typo. I noticed that UN 38.3 in their manual and found it interesting. MIL-STD-810 (in the U.S.) would be beyond that in some ways but very similar in concept. It's actually what I had in mind some pages ago when I mentioned that going from no design or test standard for environment to military would add a zero or two to the cost but there's less stringent commercial and industrial standards that could apply for less. Specifically here it looks like it about doubles the price of a Jackery 500 to the Dometic PLB-40.Dave this is part of what I meant about the PLB-40 ticking all the right boxes, I have been checking up on and there is a DATA Sticker on the bottom that lists that it is UN38.3 Compliant and a few other important bits of info too, and I have the PLB-40's Safety DATA Sheet and the Bureau of Dangerous Goods Lithium Cell and Battery Test Summery if you need it,
We all Oooo'd and Arrr'd when we saw the Military Pack post a few pages ago But the PLB-40 is the closest Lithium Pack that you can buy that has Similar Quality of Military Grade Products without the mega price tag, It's pretty high spec and based on that alone along with the minimum 2000 cycle Rating at 80% DOD and the less you discharge it the more cycles you should get, IE if you only take it down to around 50% and above then then there is no reason why it should not achieve 5000 to 8000 cycles. Where as the Jackery 500 only has 500 cycles @ 80%
The PLB-40 also has Much Safer LiFePO4 Cells where as Jackery use Cheaper Li-ion NMC Cells,
See Here,
Batteries on Fire - Lion Energy
Learn more about Batteries on Fire and how Lion Energy has the perfect products power your life. Click to read more and feel free to browse our products today!
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
That's what I first thought but I don't have the actual UN 38.3 but Intertek (the company Dometic even lists as doing it in their manual) says about it.
UN 38.3
It is important to note that lithium batteries have been identified as a Class 9 dangerous good during transport. To be safely transported (by air, sea, rail or roadways), they must meet the provisions laid out in UN 38.3. This standard applies to batteries transported either on their own or installed in a device (UN codes 3090/3091 for lithium, 3480/3481 for lithium-ion. And it applies to all points in the battery’s transportation process: from sub-suppliers to end-product manufacturer; manufacturer to distributor; in or out of the product; in the field; during product returns or with non-original packaging.
UN 38.3 has been adopted by regulators and competent authorities around the world, thus making it a requirement for global market access. The protocol includes identifying/classifying lithium batteries; testing/qualification requirements; design guidance/conditions and packaging/shipping obligations.
Intertek’s complete range of services include Tests 1-8 of this specification:
T1 – Altitude Simulation (Primary and Secondary Cells and Batteries)
T2 – Thermal Test (Primary and Secondary Cells and Batteries)
T3 – Vibration (Primary and Secondary Cells and Batteries)
T4 – Shock (Primary and Secondary Cells and Batteries)
T5 – External Short Circuit (Primary and Secondary Cells and Batteries)
T6 – Impact (Primary and Secondary Cells)
T7 – Overcharge (Secondary Batteries)
T8 – Forced Discharge (Primary and Secondary Cells)
Sounds like it could apply beyond just the transport, particularly overcharge sounds like an actively in use case. The other tests are plausibly just meant to cover during transport.
Seems like it would still apply here, at least with respect to the battery, since the device was being transported in the back of his 4Runner and fell out, e.g. shock and impact, installed in a device.
So while there's better tests of the enclosure and electronics themselves at least Dometic testing that the battery is protected would mean there's some thought given to the expected application and how to deal with it. And just to harp on it, adding standards and testing adds cost. Only the government can really just ask for everything without worrying about profit or sales volume.
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67cj5
Man On a Mission
Jackery on the other hand In their manual they claim it is UN38.3 and on another page it states " Not Permitted on aircrafts" LOL not my spelling "Theirs"
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
It would take more research, but perhaps Jackery is doing the very same tests and Dometic is just better at writing manuals? Obviously nothing can get moved without certain certifications.
67cj5
Man On a Mission
Yeah well their choice of Lithium cells are a little more hazzardous compared to LiFepo4's,
Another thing I notice is Jackery use 24Ah/21.6v to achieve 500+Wh where as Dometic use 40Ah' 12v to get the same Wh,
Forget all the specs for a minute, The Jackery has 8 open ports exposed to the elements plus airvents for the fan which is going to allow moisture and dust to enter or get sucked in to the main box. As well as having 4 or 5 external switchs and the charge times are 7.5 and 9.5 Hours.
Dometic on the other hand is also IP44 Rated which is protected from water sprayed from every angle and resistant to particles bigger than 1mm, Also there are Dust covers on every socket and the there are no external switch to draw in Dirt, Adding to that it also has the best Handle in the business being made out of Aluminum Bar which is 1and a 1/4" wide by 1/8" Thick with a over molded Rubber hand grip. And it's Charge times are 4.5 hours from all sources.
JaSAn
Grumpy Old Man
I was pointing out that UN 38.3 is only concerned with the batteries not creating a problem in transport. That some of the standards carry over into the product itself is a bonus. The standard doesn't care if the product is functional after testing only that the batteries were not compromised. I was focusing on the drop testing.
I made part of my modest income from breaking electronics, so my working with UN 38.3 was with T3, T4, and T6, which the product was in shipping packaging. Dropping the unpackaged product was conducted from 18" - 36" depending on size and weight (18" - 48" for military: MIL STD 810).
I made part of my modest income from breaking electronics, so my working with UN 38.3 was with T3, T4, and T6, which the product was in shipping packaging. Dropping the unpackaged product was conducted from 18" - 36" depending on size and weight (18" - 48" for military: MIL STD 810).
67cj5
Man On a Mission
I love all that testing stuff,
No one makes a proper Mil Spec power pack and I am not sure if too many folks would stump up the Cash for it anyway, In the US they would and I would but the rest of the world wouldn't, and the PLB-40 is about the only one that offers some Level of protection and it is Tough enough for 99% of users when it comes to the domestic market.
Oh and I have tripped over one of them in the Dark kicking it across the floor and it was fine but I didn't fare so well, Lol.
Ryanmb21
Expedition Leader
thanks for your input on this. Very interesting.
Given your experience, do you think it's reasonable to assume that battery pack like the jackery would survive a fall from about 35 inches (suv floor height plus 8" of drawers)? And if not, be user repairable?
thanks!
Would I be correct in guessing that for the MIL STD the product would have to still be usable, whereas for the UN 38.3 standard, it simply needs to not burn the place down... not necessarily be useable?
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