What Axles configuration? (6 x 6 vs. 8 x 8)

[Lynn]

Hey Phil,

A build like you have described has certainly crossed my mind... or at least appeared in my dreams.

You mentioned forum member Egn. IIRC in one of his posts he expressed a preference for 6x6 over 8x8 because that extra axle takes up a lot of space that could be used for frame-mounted fuel tanks, storage lockers, etc. EDIT: now that I think about it, he may have said he considered dropping an axle off of his 6x6, making it 4x4, to gain space.

I went back and read over you last post, and what you are talking about sure makes sense to me. At different times I have considered 1) building out a shipping container and then renting a truck locally and 2) building a container/truck camper such that when I wanted to ship it I could rearrange all the furnishings and put the truck inside also (let's face it, there's a lot of air space in a camper box. I don't think it would be impossible to compact all the furnishings and park a highly modified truck inside, too).

One thing I ran across in my research, and you will want to check into, is private ownership of a container. One shipper's site stated that containers not owned by established shipping companies are considered 'rogue' containers, and folks like US TSA make shipping privately-owned containers impractical to the point of being impossible.

One question: Do you really need a hook truck? Do you anticipate needing to load/unload when you are away from a port, with its facilities? I see tons of containers going down the road on flatbeds, and the hook mechanism is going to add a lot of weight, and take up valuable space.

Please keep us updated on your findings and progress.

And look me up if you get back to Austin! (check your private messages)

 

[Spidouz]

Hi Lynn,

Don't get me wrong, for now it's in my dreams only too. It will take some time until everything piece of the puzzle could come together.

What a coincidence you're talking about the storage and locker on the 8x8/6x6... I was just thinking about it *right now* since the previous message about the size of the 8x8 over the 6x6. If we look at the MAN TGS, considering the cabin would be the same and the container would be the same size, we could think it wouldn't change much the length between the 6x6 or 8x8...

BUT, when considering the extra axle, we realize it will indeed take the few place left that could be used for extra gas tank (including for the AdBlue if it's a modern model, which is already a PITA), some storage, etc...

Also more wheels would also say more spare wheels required and then even more weight (on top of the difference by the axle itself).

So in the end I think there's no need to go for a Frankenstein and a 6x6 would be more than enough for the container I have in my mind. It's the kind of configuration we can easily find as construction trucks around the world I think... so it wouldn't that hard to find some parts. Actually, I believe it would probably be harder in the US than in Africa for instance, because I don't think there's a lot of MAN in the US. I might be wrong, but I don't remind to ever seen one.

More globally, I believe there's no much COE at all (which could be completely understandable for US Roads/Streets). But in the end, I still do like better the COE configuration. In any case, by using the Hook-Lift method, the choice of the truck could actually be one of the very last thing I could do, once I will have all dimensions, weight, etc...

Right now, I'm just spending some time on forum because I want to collect as much information as I can to be sure to get everything I need to know before to consider and start this project.

I have absolute no idea about private ownership of the container regarding the TSA. That's actually something I even didn't think about it. Could it still be considered as a shipping container once modified? Shippable... yes, but is that part of a shipping company, I don't think so. I should actually do some search about it, including how it would work with TSA (in comparison of shipping a 4x4 offroad RV Truck). I should also check with KottageRV because they're using similar system... Thanks for the reminder, I'm gonna check that

Regarding the reason for the Hook-Lift, except the obvious one to be able to easily and quickly unload the container and still use the truck for something else, there's also a good example done by a German company here:
http://reisemobil-reparatur.de/xterra-expeditionvehicles/

Also, by using this system, at anytime I could use another regular HookLifter Truck. For instance, for long shipping (Europe to US), I could ship the Container only, rent a Truck and drive all around the North-America... I believe it would bring more flexibility. The container wouldn't be that much heavier because it could be part of the frame, but the truck by itself will definitely be heavier.

On the less important criteria: Since the construction will take quite some time, I could still use the truck for other task with another empty container. However, I do agree it's not the major reason.

In any way, thank you all for your help and your feedback grandly welcomed (even the negative ones). No doubt I will let you know the progression of this project.

PS: I'd LOVE to be back in Austin, TX... It's one of my favorite town (with Prague in Czech Republic).

Phil

 

[Spidouz]

No Verkstad, I'm just talkative anyway, trying to respond to anyone that take time to comment.

In any case, in Europe I need to pass my truck license. There's no way you can drive it with a regular car driver license.
Most of the A-Class size RV in Europe are in the Buses category. And if I'd like a robust offroad 4x4 Truck, let's say equivalent to a F550 (such the MAN TGM), I'd still need a Truck driver License. That's not a big deal to me, it's something I wanted to pass anyway (regardless the Container/RV thing).

But you're right, depending the countries, it could indeed be some down sides and some expenses of having a "real truck" (related to the number of axle).

Don't worry, I will try to get as much information than I can about it before to really start this project. Coming here on the forum was a one of the first steps, but definitely not the last one

Phil

 

[Lynn]

Verkstad has a good point. At least here in the US your configuration would probably require commercial driver's licensing, registration, insurance, etc. while a 'one piece' rig of any size could be registered as a motorhome, requiring only a basic car driver's license, cheaper insurance, etc.

Most states require that a motorhome have a minimum compliment of fixed fixtures, like toilet, stove, bed.

A demountable camper would not qualify as a motorhome, and the vehicle portion must have separate registration. So you would be facing commercial truck requirements for the truck itself.

Of course, that's only if you register it in the US. On a work visa, IIRC, you can import a vehicle for the length of time your visa is good for. When you leave, you have to take it with you.

So, I assume if you have it registered in France as a motorhome, and bring it in on a work or travel visa, it will remain registered in France. No problem.

US insurance would probably be a lot cheaper and easier if you had it registered as a motorhome / camper. But I know little about international insurance.

 

[Lynn]

In addition, any time you cross a state line with a commercial truck you may have to stop at the weigh station. RVs don't have to, but even if you have your rig registered as an RV, if it looks commercial they'll expect you to stop. Personally, I think it would probably be better to stop and show them the RV title, rather than have a police officer chase you down because he thought it was commercial.

Maybe with a lot of windows, a really obnoxious paint job, and the letters 'RV' stenciled on the back in meter-high letters...

 

[Spidouz]

Ooops, the complete opposite of what I was wishing for...
I wanted to try to have all windows cover by the slides, etc... to have more protections when traveling to avoid any damages from trees, rocks, whatever... And also to have something more standard look-wise to shipping companies if I ever need to ship it.

Well, that's another thing I'll need to check...

Thanks for the info

Phil

 

[grizzlyj]

Thank you for sharing so much of your thought process

In the UK a C1 licence is for 3500kg to 7500kg. A C licence is anything rigid over 3500kg. Both courses, hire of instructor, vehicle, test fees etc is about £1000 (C1 a bit cheaper maybe), so if you just did the Class C you get more for your money. That only lets you tow up to 750kg which is a bit daft, so you may need a C+E licence then you can tow anything and is the licence artic drivers have. That would also cost something approaching a grand after doing C. I did C, thought the weeks intensive course would be a speedy process, but the paperwork, waiting for theory test dates, and the provisional licence being approved took months, so start early wherever you actually do it!

I think the UK has quite high road tax charges for trucks, but not campers. A hook type dismountable would probably not count as a camper here unless you hid what it could do, and certainly wouldn't once you dismount it.

Even if you end up owning a container, the contents will presumably be taxable when you leave the EU? Will customs regard it as a caravan???

Where do you imagine actually living in it? I wouldn't think many campsites would appreciate the damage done by the rollers at the end of a hook type container! Thats partly why I mentioned a HIAB, you can unload to the side as well, making more sites available to you perhaps?

Campsites may not have sufficient amperage available for your household needs, so getting everything running on 12volts, with a multi voltage charger, might be an idea?

 

[Spidouz]

No problem Grizzly.

I'm sharing my thought process for several reasons. First it might help to explain better some of my choices, but also give a big picture view. Because there's a lot of chances that I might think wrongly sometimes. I'm just a newbie with a dream project for now... So I'm listening (ok, reading) any comments. The better you know my thoughts, the more accurate your comment will be in regard of my project and wishes. Also, it might help for other that could (or could not) be in a similar situation. Everyone's different and what does work for someone might not work for someone else. There's no "perfect and absolute solution", there's only compromises.

Regarding the Truck driving license, in France it's exactly the same than in the UK apparently. Pretty much the same prices as far I know for a C or E+C.
There's also a course for the fret transport (also in the £1000 or so) but you don't need it for Campers. I don't know yet if I would need it for a container (that could be considered as "fret" depending the laws). Also I have an international car driver license I need to renew, as well as a Texas car driver license valid until 2016, so I don't know yet where I'm gonna pass the truck driver license. As for now, I'm assuming in France. But I will confirm you that later

Regarding the taxes, I'm not gonna hide the hook-lift or anything else. I'm plenty assuming my choices and as weird it might be and even if I don't like to waste money and give it away, I understand taxes and fees as long it makes sense to me. For instance, it makes sense 3 axles might be more expensive than 2 axles. It makes senses than >7.5t truck might be more expensive than <7.5t truck. And it could also makes sense than >25' would be more expensive than <25' vehicle.

After all, I don't know for all countries, but in France when you own a land and/or house, you have taxes. So it would be similar even if the house is a container (it doesn't matter if the house is made of concrete, wood or container). I'm not trying to find a loophole to avoid taxes. As long as it stays similar to what I would normally pay for a house, it will be OK, regardless if I pay it on a road toll and/or on a park to stay.

Regarding the customs, that's actually a REALLY good question... and I don't know at all. That's really something I need to dig a little bit. My only experience of traveling was on a bike and I know that for some countries (I think it was the case for Egypt, Lybia, etc... I don't know if it's still the case now), they wanted a "Carnet de Passage en Douane" (CPD): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnet_de_Passage

And to get your CPD, you needed to deposit on a bank account the amount of the value of your vehicule. So if you had a 10,000 Euros bike, you had to deposit 10,000 Euros to get the CPD you should have it stamped for every country entries and exits. It's used to prove that you didn't sell your vehicle in the country to avoid illegal importation. If you miss a single exit stamp, you won't get your money back when you're back home (because it would mean you did sold your vehicle).

So, I'd like to know if it's the same with Trucks and/or Campers? What if you have a $200,000+ Campers... you'll need another $200K to get a piece of paper? How does it actually work for international transporters? If it's the case, would it only be for the vehicle value that would be estimated? In my case could it mean only the Truck (and not the Container)? Well, that's a lot of questions I don't know yet about; but I really need to check all customs things to travel around the world. That's also why I'm starting to look on forums and websites to get as much information as I can. Because this is the kind of things we don't necessarily think at first, but that could change a lot the situation.

How does it actually work with any offroad campers? Any experiences and inputs are welcomed

Regarding the HIAB (I did ignore the name, thanks for the picture, I didn't knew what you were saying until then), I actually thought about it and it could actually be interesting because most of the case it also have some hydraulic stabilization legs (Sorry I don't know the exact name in english) that could also be used to level the truck. It would be nice and very practical in some situation, but I think the whole installation might be heavier (I just guess). Having both would be golden, but then I'm worrying about the weight. I should check, but I admit the HIAB isn't a bad idea (still considering it).

However, the idea would be to have some container canisters. I saw some pneumatic wheels that could help to use the container as a trailer on some low speed and short distance. Just enough to pass a bridge pretty low, etc... Something like that:

http://www.mobilecontainersales.com/removeable_container_wheels/
(But this one is probably not strong enough)

http://www.tandemloc.com/0_mobilizing/M_AC49000A-XPA.asp
(And this one is probably way too big and heavy)

But something I could slide in the chassis (such the first one) and strong enough to support the container weight. So it would work on grass and pavement and wouldn't damage anything on a campsite. Also, even without pneumatic wheels, it is possible to unload it without rolling it off (or barely). It requires some skills and practice, but that's doable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtboUZ8Xuvo

Also, I'm not counting to be on campsite only. The goal of an offroad vehicle to me is to be off-grid and spend the night (or a week) wherever I want (and can) that I could consider like the "perfect spot". So in this case, I would leave the container on the truck. Being able to unload it is for the times I would like to stay for longer periods and/or where I could own a piece of land to drop it. I know it's not doable everywhere, some states don't allow people to live like that off-grid, but that's another story.

Regarding the electrical consumption, since one of my goal is also to be off-grid and as much self-sufficient as I can, I will be very careful to any electrical devices in the container to work fine with the solar panels (the container will be big enough to have plenty of them), multiple batteries and the backup generator (directly from one of the truck gas tanks since it would also run in diesel).

So, I'm not going crazy with 5 x 62" TV running all the time, etc... However, to be able to work, I will still need some stuff such a computer and an internet (satellite) connexion and few equipments. I'm currently reducing my setup to a minimalist version to see how low I could get from an electric point of view and evaluating my needs.

Ooops, another very long post. I should really start to be more minimalist for that too... LOL
At least, you now have some bathroom reading

Phil

 

[mog]

As far as in the USA, I don't think you can get around that it will be a commercial truck with cargo (your ISO &#8216;house'). Every state I am familiar with as far as something qualifying as a RV requires a permanent living quarter. What makes it &#8216;living quarters' varies from state to state, but they all say permanent. So a slide-it camper on the back of a pick-up truck can not be removed. And you can bet your 6x6 hooklifter-truck will attract a fair amount of attention, so it better always have the &#8216;house' on the back if not registered commercial.

So I would bit the bullet and plan on it being a commercial truck not a RV. Now will that cause a problem temporary importing it to the US for a year like tourists can do with their RVs? You would need to check into that. If I was touring America in my giant Unicat, I appear as a tourist, but if I show up at customs with a 6x6 hooklifter truck and say &#8220;O- I'm putting my ISO container house on the back&#8221;, the boys/girls with customs will not just rubber stamp that.

Also when the expandable containers are closed (1-side and 2-side) they are not usable in the closed mode. So if you are off-road and find the perfect spot, you are going to be looking for a (level) 27 foot by 22 foot spot, a pretty big footprint other then in the desert. And no RV park, etc is going to accommodate that.

I like your project, and think it is great you are vetting it here since there are so many variables on both sides of the pond for this project.

 

[Spidouz]

I quite aware it will be qualified as a truck with cargo. That would actually already be the case in Europe, so why should it be different in the US?
And I would really be curious to know for guys that own a 6x6 from Unicat or Action Mobil, even if it's a semi-permanent installation.

If the registration, insurance, etc... is a problem, I could still consider to register everything from a commercial company I would create just for that.

And regarding the customs, if I can actually build the container AND have the truck to move it around the world, it would also mean business is doing OK, therefor I should get my 10 years business visa. So it wouldn't be much different between buying a house in the US or having an ISO 'house' (as long the state allow to use a container as a house, it's indeed not the case for all states from what I heard). But I agree I need to check with Customs (and not only with the US) because it could be quite tricky situation.

Regarding the "perfect spot" to be level or not, it's not a big deal. In any case, I need to include a solution to be level.

Action Mobil did patent a system to level the truck based on the suspension system:
http://www.actionmobil.at/page20/assets/News 3-2010 E .pdf

We should also keep in mind that with a Hook-Lifter Truck, we could adjust the level with the Hook-Lift directly:


And there's would other systems to level the container directly (with regular hydraulic jack fixed directly on the container).

Today, I don't know yet what would be the best solution, but I know there's some solution to choose from that could fix this kind of issue.

Phil

 

[grizzlyj]

Big post! :Wow1:

A UK issued Carnet would be for chassis only with what you're talking about, value negotiated between you and the issuer (RAC). For a £50K camper chassis you do indeed need £50K deposited, although in reality it will be more than that since for me in the UK, the last time I asked, Africa is 150% of that value, Aus 300% (I think), Egypt 800% worst case (plus a fee). You can also insure the risk instead, which I was told cost 10% of that 150% etc which you got half back at the end of the Carnet year. The RAC seems to have changed a little in that they want the second year money upfront rather than letting the first year roll over with the insured version, possibly because people don't play the game properly? All the Americas no Carnet needed, China is agreed at the border and varies, etc etc. The HUBB forum is a good info source. Other Euro countries often seem to have cheaper Carnet costs, some Austrian friends costs for Syria and Saudi were ridiculously cheap. I've no idea who issues them for French registered vehicles but it might be worth a chat? USA registered may be cheap too?

Fret would maybe be freight? Or UK would be a goods vehicle, wether you can carry goods being the decider about vehicle registration and then taxes even if you actually don't ever do so.

Do you know what happens with a French registration, annual test etc if you leave for more than a year?

I know a Unimog SBU cab fits in a container. There are narrower axles and wider axles and both fit once you've taken bits off, but I would think most Euro trucks capable of carrying a container will be container width so won't fit inside.

A front mounted HIAB can offload either side, I think a rear mounted one should be able to swivel 180 degrees and off load backwards, but they don't do 360, the last part of the circle is blocked off, but I think it should do almost backwards either side too making the hook an either or.

Laptops eat much less juice than a PC perhaps?

You might want to look into diesel sulphur content effects if you are looking at worldwide, a nice new Euro engine's exhaust filters might not last long and no manufacturer will tell you how long they will last for definite, which might screw up the ECU. Older trucks will be happier in more places, Euro 3 and before.

How does it actually work with any offroad campers? Buy fuel, food, beer, :smiley_drive::REOutCampFire03::friday: repeat :sombrero:

 

[Spidouz]

Thanks for your comment Grizzly!

There's a lot of info there. Regarding the Carnet, I heard something similar for the bike and car, but I didn't think it was the same for Campers/Trucks. It's just crazy. Imagine you have a $200K Trucks/Campers, you will need $1.6M deposit to cross Egypt? Well if it's the case, I might just avoid this country because that's definitely not the kind of money I have. And if it's the case for many other countries, I might change my plans. Maybe some of world-travellers here can afford it (good for them), but I can't.

Building a Home Container with a Truck is already a high budget, but it's still something I could consider because it would still be a home.
But when we start to talk about $500K, $600K, $1M... at this price, I just prefer to buy an apartment and a house in both France and the US and get a Jeep to drive around.
I will have a little chat with the automobile club (I do believe that's the ones who do the Carnet for French registered vehicles).

I also have no idea about the annual inspection. Another thing to check (the list is already long and it's just the beginning, LOL)

I don't think any COE European-like Truck would fit in a regular container (including in a "high-cube container"), regardless if it's a 6x6 or even a 4x4. Once modified for offroad, they are way too high. And most of them still have a cabin too wide to pass a container doors. However, there's probably a way to ship in anyway. I saw some guys having their Unicat shipped in South America to start a world trip... so I guess there's always a solution. (After all, how the truck manufacture do to ship a new truck to a specific dealer?). If you at some brand such Volvo, Mercedes, Man, Scania and Renault, it's the kind of truck you can find anywhere in the world (but the US) and not just in Europe.

Regarding the laptop, it's coming better and better every day. It's still not perfect for what I need, but it's coming good and by the time I could build the truck, I have no doubt the power will be more than enough on a laptop to allow me to do what I need. I also look at the MacMini that only consumes 85W. I'm not too worry about this part. And that's actually the only domain I know pretty well so far

Regarding the engines... yeah, all EURO 4, 5 and now 6 norms are a PITA, including for the AdBlue, etc... It's supposedly done to save the planet, but the old 30+ years trucks that still drive in Africa, Asia, South Americas, Russia, etc... they just don't care about it and it's still the same planet. Should we just "turn off" the SRC systems just because we cross a virtual line on a map that represents a border? Gas emissions can cross this line back (even without passport, carnet, visa, vaccines and everything we need to get to comply to the local law). I don't want to start any debate about that, but IMHO, it's a very questionable thing and I do agree that as long as not everyone is adopting the same norms, it's not something we could really rely on. New engine are more and more complex, and therefor probably more fragile in some countries.

Then old engine would virtually be better and more robust for traveling the world, including in places where gas isn't a good quality. In the other hand, it's sand to not enjoy some of the new improvement we could get in newer models (real improvements and not just modification of engine to fit some pollution norms dictated by the EU to have a good face for the next G20 and/or next International Pollution Conference).

Anyway, if the Carnet cost is confirmed, it will take me so much time to save it that the truck will run on electricity by then

Until then, Happy New Year to you guys and your families. I wish you all the best for 2013. Good health, good wealth and the most amazing world expeditions!!

Phil

 

[grizzlyj]

Happy New Year to you

Regarding Carnet, you said 200 I said 50, its only the bare chassis not total vehicle cost here at least. If you asked for an agreed value (in the UK) of a brand new Land Rover anyone can look up the current retail price. But even if you had a brand new Unicat, and built on a 15 year old truck chassis, its only the agreed chassis cost, which would be how much? £5K? Then Egypt would be 8 x 5000, insurance Carnet option is £4000 for a year (10% of 800%), £2K back at the end, a few hundred in fees, all approx. Or avoid Egypt in your vehicle! The Austrians I mentioned should have paid thousands, but paid maybe €1K, I don't know how, but like I said the rates vary depending on inter country relations. Maybe UK vehicles pay more than anyone else?

The official line with taking a vehicle out of the UK for 12 months and more is you have to permanently export it. But you still need the Carte Gris / V5 / Log Book, they are expecting you to reimport it somewhere else. You can't really do that into every country you visit can you?! So the reality is you kind of become unofficial, you drive out, and don't come back for a long time. There isn't an official way of doing it. Again, more UK specific stuff on the HUBB. Some on this forum might be of help too http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-134684.html You could also try searching out M37Charlie here too, he has a lovely Unicat recently back from Aus.

Jason

 

[Spidouz]

Thanks Jason, Happy New Year to you too and to your family and close ones.

Thank you also for the info. I will definitely look more deeply about the Carnet (because I read last night we needed the Carnet for South Americas too and other countries).
I could understand for the 100% current value (to avoid you to illegally import a vehicle in a country, got some money and fly back home to buy a new one and repeat the operation). But sometimes, when I see 800% it just doesn't make sense.

(I mean it on a large scale point of view... because I understand the reality that some products could be resold twice, three times or more their real price.
So having 150% 200% 300% guarantee might just be in relation to the price any vehicle could and would be sold in this country.
What doesn't make sense to me is: Why in the hell a product could be sold 8 times its price in another country? But that's another story...)

Anyway, regardless if it's 50K, 100K, 150K or 200K, if it's 50%, 100%, 150% or 800%, with or without insurance option, I will need to check to know EXACTLY the situation. I will have time to read all forum, contact the people in charge of it to chat with them, etc... Because that's something that will happen probably after the Container and its modifications anyway.

Thanks for the link, I'm gonna read it now

Phil

 

[mogwildRW1]

Not a container, but nice 8x8 Motorhome