where are the Porsche cayenne expo builds?

[dreadlocks]

I dont think anyone's figured out a way to articulate the diff lock w/just switches/relays.. it plugs into a can module that talks to the switch.. thats one of the big hurdles I see w/trying to retrofit a rear locker into my Audi is there is no OEM switch location for me to take advantage of so I'd need to wire in a manual switch.. and from what I read its a PWM motor that activates the lock so you need a pulse signal and not straight voltage.

My diesel I dont really miss having low speed transfer case (ive got a auto locking center diff), it makes so much torque down low it creeps very nicely in 1st gear.. I really only want a rear diff lock because fitting a winch to mine is neigh impossible.. but the ABS EDL does surprisingly well on trails.. just takes a bit to get used too, its best to pretend its not doing anything and ignore the ruckus of the brakes locking up to keep power on the ground.. Ive been one wheel in the air countless times and its always kept me moving.

There are no front lockers or LSD's on any of the VW/Audi/Porsche's, minus the concept Race Touareg made for Dakar but good f'n luck getting your hands on that drivetrain... the new V8 SQ7 is getting a rear sports diff, which is LSD so it can torque vector power to the outside but I dont think that diff was put on any Porsche's.

 

[Dave Waldo]

Great info!
And yesterday I was thinking the whole diffs and low range probably get activated in one specific order and that it would probably be possible to activate at least the rear diff seperately. Either with CAN or just relays. You will be doing that.
I think for me air suspension with rear diff lock would be great, on a 957 with the 3.6 v6 would be great already. I have gotten everywhere with 75 horsepower and low-range before, so I would rather choose the more simple/cheaper option with less parts to break. That also means that you will get smaller brakes, so able to fit smaller rims, although I am not sure if that really is a benefit.
And then add a tow hitch wheel carrier, even though it will probably not survive the endless washboarding / corrugated roads I have seen in Asia, it will not see that kind of roads that much anyway.

Great info about the rear locker, I was afraid of the LEDs always being there, regardless. And sellers probably don't know either.

About the front diff. Since it shares components with the Audi/VWs, isnt it possible to find a limited slip diff (torsen?) from those brands? Obviously some people will have already checked that.

Thanks.

The diesels are pretty popular for off-road and those that have them are pretty happy with them (there is good info in this thread) you could consider those too. I'm a bit of a rev head (a lot really) so I like the performance but complexity comes with it. e.g. I blew a PDCC hose this week driving it on a nice windy mountain road.

Smaller rims definitely help. It is one of those diminishing returns type things. The différence between a 33" tyre on a 20" wheel and a 33" tyre on an 18" rim is huge off-road. The difference between the same tyre on 18" rim and a 16" is not as much but definitely noticable and worthwhile. For traction in the direction of travel, length of the contact patch is more important than the width, so taller tyres. For cornering, width is more important. Taller tyres give you the longer contact patch, true ground clearance and better approach angles for obstacles.

P.S. the greater the volume in a tyre the less progressive the pressure increase for a given deformation so it will deform more and at a softer tyre spring rate.

I am confident I will be able to make a controller for the locking rear diff although I am not 100% sure on the motors requirements when in locked mode, hopefully it will hold in position without much current draw. My diffs are in the country now, I'm looking forward to playing with them.

Front locker I am not as confident about until I see it in pieces (it's with the diff coming this week) but I expect to be able to make one for it. I like playing with these sorts of things.

I don't think the traction control will allow a LSD to function properly you may end up with some weird stuff going on ??? Not sure.

 

[Dave Waldo]

I dont think anyone's figured out a way to articulate the diff lock w/just switches/relays.. it plugs into a can module that talks to the switch.. thats one of the big hurdles I see w/trying to retrofit a rear locker into my Audi is there is no OEM switch location for me to take advantage of so I'd need to wire in a manual switch.. and from what I read its a PWM motor that activates the lock so you need a pulse signal and not straight voltage.

My diesel I dont really miss having low speed transfer case (ive got a auto locking center diff), it makes so much torque down low it creeps very nicely in 1st gear.. I really only want a rear diff lock because fitting a winch to mine is neigh impossible.. but the ABS EDL does surprisingly well on trails.. just takes a bit to get used too, its best to pretend its not doing anything and ignore the ruckus of the brakes locking up to keep power on the ground.. Ive been one wheel in the air countless times and its always kept me moving.

There are no front lockers or LSD's on any of the VW/Audi/Porsche's, minus the concept Race Touareg made for Dakar but good f'n luck getting your hands on that drivetrain... the new V8 SQ7 is getting a rear sports diff, which is LSD so it can torque vector power to the outside but I dont think that diff was put on any Porsche's.

I tried to find out more about the Dakar drive train/front diff. Not much information around. Not surprised but disappointing that all that work and testing is just lost.

 

[dreadlocks]

yeah the closest anyone found was a part number for a selector lever that shows front diff lock, they never found the part number or anything further about the Race Treg diff, let alone any parts.. thats how that stuff kinda goes, they build one offs all the time.. I've got a 6MT Gearbox in my back yard racer that was a 1 off built by VW for a Jetta race build.. all custom gear ratios and built like a tank.. has a stamp of the machine shop that built it and thats it.. probably cost more than $20k to build it way back when.. the race departments got serious funds.

Given none of us are gonna do any extreme rock crawling, lockers are mostly a luxury hopefully most of us will ever need.. but it would be great if you figured out how to activate the locker w/out the can bus module, I think the TDI T-Reg's have same final drives as my Audi TDI so I could just grab one of those locking diffs and wire up a dashboard switch for the trail, I'm pretty sure I can recode traction control to accommodate the rear diff but I dont know if the can box tells the ABS to change behaviors on the fly if the diff is locked or not.. I suppose if the wheel is not free spinning, the EDL wont activate on the rears anymore.

Fitting a rear locker to my Audi would increase my trail confidence significantly.. very interested in your progress @Dave Waldo

 

[Lovetheworld]

If the starting point is a Cayenne with a rear locker, I would think it is not to hard to activate the rear locker seperately. Find out which CAN messages it responds to and then put a device in the CAN line (inline, man in the middle), so that you send the messages to the difflock controller when you want to, while also letting the normal messages through, keeping original behavior as well.

I would like to keep things simple and cheap so would probably find one with a rear locker, and not bother with the front diff. I never had a 4x4 with front locker anyway.
I live in the Netherlands, road tax is incredably expensive, especially for diesel. I think I would be happy with the v6 version. And then only keep it registered whenever we want to use it, and electric car as a daily driver. We will see.

I have no idea how often the Cayenne's were sold here with rear lockers, I am afraid it won't be much.

 

[Dave Waldo]

yeah the closest anyone found was a part number for a selector lever that shows front diff lock, they never found the part number or anything further about the Race Treg diff, let alone any parts.. thats how that stuff kinda goes, they build one offs all the time.. I've got a 6MT Gearbox in my back yard racer that was a 1 off built by VW for a Jetta race build.. all custom gear ratios and built like a tank.. has a stamp of the machine shop that built it and thats it.. probably cost more than $20k to build it way back when.. the race departments got serious funds.

Given none of us are gonna do any extreme rock crawling, lockers are mostly a luxury hopefully most of us will ever need.. but it would be great if you figured out how to activate the locker w/out the can bus module, I think the TDI T-Reg's have same final drives as my Audi TDI so I could just grab one of those locking diffs and wire up a dashboard switch for the trail, I'm pretty sure I can recode traction control to accommodate the rear diff but I dont know if the can box tells the ABS to change behaviors on the fly if the diff is locked or not.. I suppose if the wheel is not free spinning, the EDL wont activate on the rears anymore.

Fitting a rear locker to my Audi would increase my trail confidence significantly.. very interested in your progress @Dave Waldo

The Cayenne / Touareg have a lot of cross over, gear ratios, flange sizes, spline and the code numbers are the same, I would be surprised if Audi went to the trouble to reinvent the diffs but I don't know. So I'd say you will be ok. Do you know what ratio you have ?

Best case I will have a pot control on the dash/console that will give a variable amount of resistance across the rear axel's up to locked. Worst case (I hope) is a switch on/off. It will be very handy to be able to activate it without low range. I do a lot of beach driving around 80kph (50mph) and low range won't let me do that. Especially if I drop the ratio to 4.55. It would be nice to lock the rear and maybe the centre diff and stay in high range. One problem could be that It won't switch the software to off-road without low range. I'm not sure what that does ?

If the rear diff controller works well i might look at a switch to divert the centre diff to work the same way. Where a 2way switch selects if you want the TC to run the centre diff as normal or if you want to switch to manual control then you can select any amount of locking with or without low range. Might be too hard ???

Someone told me the TC will fight the diff locking to the point it will lock the brakes but I can't foresee any situation that it would do that. It should just see less and less slip and become less and less active and when the diff locks there is nothing for it to do. I think the diffs that mechanically react to slip might cause some boundary issues with TC.

 

[Dave Waldo]

If the starting point is a Cayenne with a rear locker, I would think it is not to hard to activate the rear locker seperately. Find out which CAN messages it responds to and then put a device in the CAN line (inline, man in the middle), so that you send the messages to the difflock controller when you want to, while also letting the normal messages through, keeping original behavior as well.

I would like to keep things simple and cheap so would probably find one with a rear locker, and not bother with the front diff. I never had a 4x4 with front locker anyway.
I live in the Netherlands, road tax is incredably expensive, especially for diesel. I think I would be happy with the v6 version. And then only keep it registered whenever we want to use it, and electric car as a daily driver. We will see.

I have no idea how often the Cayenne's were sold here with rear lockers, I am afraid it won't be much.

Here, every second owner thought they had a rear locker, I asked them to send me a picture of the build/options code sticker so I knew if they did or didn't. In 18 months of looking, not a single one.

If you find one it is much more than just a locking diff, well worth finding one if you can. They are available in Europe. Mine are coming from Europe so keep looking.

 

[dreadlocks]

I spent last night digging through parts catalogs, the Q7 shares same rear diff as the TDI Touareg at my model year because no lockers were offered, the late gen Treg TDI's have same ratios as early gen Treg TDI's, and they swap in the earlier rear diff.. so yeah, I'll need 0AB525016P the rear locking diff for a 3.0L TDI, could import one for under a grand used off ebay.de, might need axles too as it looks like flanges are different.. Its just activating the locker using non-oem means thats preventing me from taking the dive since I the Audi has no OEM provisions, would be neat to have the only Q7 in the world w/rear locker since outfitting a winch is off the table due to ACC, i really like my Adaptive Cruise Control and dont wanna lose it.. so no major front end modifications.

Offroad mode on mine changes steering resistance, and enables downhill descent mode, deactivates the collision warnings and other TC tweaks.. the EDL activates way quicker/easier in offroad mode however it will drift in the snow all day long and do doughnuts in offroad mode w/out trying to correct it so most TC seems inactive except for those advantageous for offroad (downhill/edl).

The EDL quickly locks up the free spinning wheel so the open diffs can transfer power to the wheel on the ground, once that wheel starts moving it starts pulsing the free spinning wheel brake until it regains traction.. it all happens very quickly, but makes a ton of rukus.. same idea for downhill descent mode, but I think steering inputs are calculated and it does its best to keep the ass behind you if it starts going sideways.. With a rear locker its only the downhill descent mode that I could see screwing w/TC as it seems to use more data than just wheel spin rates.. but you dont need the rear end locked up when you've got gravity on your side so just take caution to make sure they dont fight eachother.. In normal driving mode at speed, I doubt TC would try to fight a rear lock on sand.. it just might not try to correct you if you get it a little sideways since it will see the rears both traveling same speed regardless.

not long ago I encountered a Treg who had his rear locker stuck engaged, he's been trotting around for a while and only started asking for help because it shredded his rear tires.. when I diagnosed his locker was stuck you could see the light bulb go off, "oah that explains why every time I take off on ice or a slick surface it wants to kick the rear end out huh?" ayup.. he'd been struggling to park straight on his sloped driveway when it was icy all winter and TC couldn't help him out.

 

[Dave Waldo]

I spent last night digging through parts catalogs, the Q7 shares same rear diff as the TDI Touareg at my model year because no lockers were offered, the late gen Treg TDI's have same ratios as early gen Treg TDI's, and they swap in the earlier rear diff.. so yeah, I'll need 0AB525016P the rear locking diff for a 3.0L TDI, could import one for under a grand used off ebay.de, might need axles too as it looks like flanges are different.. Its just activating the locker using non-oem means thats preventing me from taking the dive since I the Audi has no OEM provisions, would be neat to have the only Q7 in the world w/rear locker since outfitting a winch is off the table due to ACC, i really like my Adaptive Cruise Control and dont wanna lose it.. so no major front end modifications.

Offroad mode on mine changes steering resistance, and enables downhill descent mode, deactivates the collision warnings and other TC tweaks.. the EDL activates way quicker/easier in offroad mode however it will drift in the snow all day long and do doughnuts in offroad mode w/out trying to correct it so most TC seems inactive except for those advantageous for offroad (downhill/edl).

The EDL quickly locks up the free spinning wheel so the open diffs can transfer power to the wheel on the ground, once that wheel starts moving it starts pulsing the free spinning wheel brake until it regains traction.. it all happens very quickly, but makes a ton of rukus.. same idea for downhill descent mode, but I think steering inputs are calculated and it does its best to keep the ass behind you if it starts going sideways.. With a rear locker its only the downhill descent mode that I could see screwing w/TC as it seems to use more data than just wheel spin rates.. but you dont need the rear end locked up when you've got gravity on your side so just take caution to make sure they dont fight eachother.. In normal driving mode at speed, I doubt TC would try to fight a rear lock on sand.. it just might not try to correct you if you get it a little sideways since it will see the rears both traveling same speed regardless.

not long ago I encountered a Treg who had his rear locker stuck engaged, he's been trotting around for a while and only started asking for help because it shredded his rear tires.. when I diagnosed his locker was stuck you could see the light bulb go off, "oah that explains why every time I take off on ice or a slick surface it wants to kick the rear end out huh?" ayup.. he'd been struggling to park straight on his sloped driveway when it was icy all winter and TC couldn't help him out.

Thanks for all the information on off-road mode.

I will let you know about the motor actuator as soon as I have a better idea about controlling it.

I'm hoping I will not need to hard mount a winch. I am worried about approach and departure angles and I will probably end up with an intercooler in the space people fit the front winch so I like the Otis setup. Prety sure it's Otis that has the detachable mount for his winch, I thought I'd do something similar to his front and back.

 

[Cayenne-958-TDI]

Thanks for all the information on off-road mode. I will let you know about the motor actuator as soon as I have a better idea about controlling it. I'm hoping I will not need to hard mount a winch. I am worried about approach and departure angles and I will probably end up with an intercooler in the space people fit the front winch so I like the Otis setup. Prety sure it's Otis that has the detachable mount for his winch, I thought I'd do something similar to his front and back.

For the back, highly recommend the Wilco Hitchgate. After ~6 years ours is still very easy to operate - one finger to swing open/closed. Ours has the spare centered so can put 5gal Scepter cans on either side. No issues with carrying full cans even on long technical trips like the Lolo & Magruder in Idaho. We have winched using the Hitchgate receptacle again no issues. Yes we also have a receiver in front to stab the winch. Our ComeUp winch has served us well. One day we will get to use it for a self recovery. Our front bull bar has the parking sensors moved forward and mounted with-in the bar. To see photos of our set up including how we secured the winch inside look thru this post:
.

Meet Otis - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

Cayenne 955-957 2003-2010 - Meet Otis - Would like to thank Randy Wells and PCAs Panorama for the wonderful 11 page article on our Cayenne 'Otis' in the December issue. A lot of folks have helped us on our journey building our overlanding Cayenne. We have also done rally events like the ALCAN...

rennlist.com

 

[Cayenne-958-TDI]

Our ALCAN 5000 rally run up to the Arctic Circle was 5,120 miles one way. A Cayenne S, Macan GTS, and 'Otis' all completed the rally under their own power with no major issues. Not all of the competitors can say the same. Temps stayed between -20 to -30F. Once it got down to -40F with a blizzard and 60mph winds - this closed the Dempster Hwy. We stayed in Inuvik vs sleeping in the car at the closed gate. Scored one of the last four rooms. 'Otis' cleaned up nicely, all ready for our next adventure.

 

[Lovetheworld]

If you find one it is much more than just a locking diff, well worth finding one if you can.

What do you mean by that? I was referring to getting one with a rear locking diff (which also means it should have low-range and center difflock)
From your words I understand that there is more than that.
But now that I right the wikipedia page again, I am only more confused then before
And as @dreadlocks says he doesn't have low-range, do you have versions with no low-range and possibly no center lock?

Basically, I realize I should not be selective about engine type, just see whatever I can find with: rear locker and air suspension
And a tow hitch, but that is optional as it is much easier to fit afterwards.
Stuff like PDCC or detachable sway bar I don't care so much about.

 

[dreadlocks]

You'll want factory tow provisions if ya serious about towing, cuz they often came with bigger radiators and more powerful fans.. it was like a +$500 factory option, or a $1000 for just hitch/module and derated towing capabilities with the smaller cooling capabilities.. if you get like the V8 or TDI then they come with the bigger radiator already, but wont have the bigger fans and shroud, thats another $800-900 to fit those.

AFIK the Cayenne's can have both the auto locking center TC like mine, or the low range manual locking transfer case depending on trim.. the newer ones lost low range all together IIRC.. if you get a Diesel I dont think the low range adds much, it can idle creep up hill in 1st pretty nicely with that diesel torque even w/out 2spd TC, mebe its my 8spd but 1st is pretty much a granny gear.. however a Gasser would need it for sure.

 

[Dave Waldo]

What do you mean by that? I was referring to getting one with a rear locking diff (which also means it should have low-range and center difflock)
From your words I understand that there is more than that.
But now that I right the wikipedia page again, I am only more confused then before
And as @dreadlocks says he doesn't have low-range, do you have versions with no low-range and possibly no center lock?

Basically, I realize I should not be selective about engine type, just see whatever I can find with: rear locker and air suspension
And a tow hitch, but that is optional as it is much easier to fit afterwards.
Stuff like PDCC or detachable sway bar I don't care so much about.

If we're talking about Cayenne 955 & 957 models

If you find one with the locking rear diff it will be either Advanced Off-road Technology or have PSM+ both come with extra options that are worthwhile. The AOT has useless bash plates, except for the rockrails which seem good and stronger recovery points and better software. The PSM+ constantly varries the rear diff slip to give better cornering control and grip on and off road.

 

[Lovetheworld]

You'll want factory tow provisions if ya serious about towing, cuz they often came with bigger radiators and more powerful fans.. it was like a +$500 factory option, or a $1000 for just hitch/module and derated towing capabilities with the smaller cooling capabilities.. if you get like the V8 or TDI then they come with the bigger radiator already, but wont have the bigger fans and shroud, thats another $800-900 to fit those.

Good point, thanks. I am mainly interested in using it for spare wheel or bike rack.
But I see that they can tow a lot of weight, so it could be useful.
I could also do without, and then purchase a US tow hitch receiver bar, as that system is more versatile, such as the Hitchgate etc.
All in all not a big point.

AFIK the Cayenne's can have both the auto locking center TC like mine, or the low range manual locking transfer case depending on trim.. the newer ones lost low range all together IIRC.. if you get a Diesel I dont think the low range adds much, it can idle creep up hill in 1st pretty nicely with that diesel torque even w/out 2spd TC, mebe its my 8spd but 1st is pretty much a granny gear.. however a Gasser would need it for sure.

I am only looking at 955 and 957, because of money willing to spent, and because of the transfer cases. Low-range + manual center locker
But not every 955 and 957 have this manual transfercase with low range, is what I currently understand.
And after that it gets more and more complicated because of all the possible options. How could I forget we are dealing with German cars with mile long options lists

If you have an automatic with a reasonable amount of torque (torque converter) then yes, low range is not necessary a lot of times. Better than a manual of which you burn the clutch easily.
Combined with esp or PSM helping you with braking the spinning tires, you have a very capable car already.

Until now we have had two 4x4s that we took overland. Old slow Toyota diesels, no electronics, but they had transfercase which could lock and go to low-range.
No rear or front difflocks (only an visco LSD on one of them). We got pretty much everywhere with them. (all over Asia)
So I guess a Cayenne which has the same manual transfer case with low-range and benefits from electronics helping in gaining traction (the one wheel in the air scenarios) I shouldn't be to picky about have a rear locker or not.

I do see that a few of them are offered with "offroad" in the ad, hard to say what it really means. I think the AOT package is not marketed under that name in Europe. And all the languages here don't make it easier.
Anyway, it will take a while before we actually buy one, so I will be checking listings from time to time to see what the market is doing, what is available.