Why skinny tires

JIMBO

Expedition Leader
:sombrero: Heh Heh, ain't this internet great ???

The demand for 34/85-17 LTB is very small so the production is limited

Guess I was wrong :) I have noooo idea what he meant then.

It's more of a hiway legal off-road tire-hence the Bias VS radial, today, everything is a combo-

:costumed-smiley-007:safari-rig::safari-rig: JIMBO
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
I think it's not purely the "wall strength" of the sidewall pushing down that is supporting the load (in addition to the pressure). There are other geometric forces happening. When a tire is loaded, such that the actual radius to the contact patch is reduced vs. the free radius, you have the vertical wall strength of the sidewall. But you also have to look at what happens to the actual tread surface. This is hard to put into words... The formula for circumference is 2*Pi*radius. Say we're talking a 35" tire. The free circumference is 220". Now, when you load it, and it's aired down, the bottom radius collapses, so the circumference needs to get shorter. But it can't, it's fixed at 220". So, that small piece of tread in the contact patch is actually being compressed into a smaller length. This would end up putting forces into the sidewall to resist the movement.

I'm really having trouble putting this into words. Suffice it to say, there are a myriad of forces in the carcass of the tire, resisting the downward force of the weight, beyond the simple vertical strength of the sidewall.

Indeed, the internal PSI of a tire is not the only force at play on the contact area of a tire. Contact patch size of a tire made of a balloon would alternatively be based almost entirely on psi (think rolligon as an extreme example of low pressure, high contact area tires).



I think you're trying to say that some vehicle weight is transferred circumferentially through the tread too, and not only vertically through the sidewalls.

You are very correct, and your point can be made by looking at the Michelin Tweel. The Tweel has zero sidewall and zero psi:

Honeycomb-Tire-Bombproof-Bulletproof-2.jpg


I actually sat through a lecture a few years ago about how the Tweel operated. The interesting take away was that the internal rubber spokes actually took very little compressive loading... as you would think it did. The stresses are actually transferred mainly through circumferential compressive loading of the tread, and the wheel actually HANGS off of the internal spokes, loading the spokes above the wheel in tension more than the spokes that are in compression above the contact patch. Think of a piece of paper. You can apply a tension load easily, but a compressive load will just cause the paper to buckle.

Sidewalls act similarly. Much of the tracking and side loading strength of a tire is in the construction of the tread. The sidewalls don't provide much vertical compressive support because they are actually in a buckling condition, not so much in a cantilever beam condition. The sidewall above the wheel actually carries most of the carcass load in tension (I know, kinda counter-intuitive) and transfers it to the bead, which acts in axial tension holding on to the wheel itself.

I've just come back from holiday, and caught up on the thread. These two posts seem to have addressed the issue of how the carcass of the tyre might be contributing to holding the truck up (and therefore not maintaining a contact patch inversely proportional to pressure).

I still can't quite get my head around it, in view of the fact that it's possible to push a zero psi tyre downwards (a long way) with very little force, implying that the carcass alone is providing very little support. In that respect, it's very different from the Tweel (or a spoked wheel). I suspect that it's because the zero psi tyre can collapse "inwards" and needn't stretch?

Anyway, an interesting and enlighting debate, all. Where else but on ExPo?
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
Stand or Hang?

I build bicycle wheels from time to time and there are huge debates as to whether a bicycle wheel stands on its spokes or hangs from them. Bottom line is that it requires even tension for strength. (And I have forgotten the answer - I just put spokes all around and tensioned them the same! :) )

Years ago, Michelin used to publish very detailed adverts for the Michelin "Saharien" tire. (Haven't been able to find one on the 'net.) This was back in the day when bias (or cross) plies were the rule for off road. (Radials were rare and there was much viewing-with-alarm about the danger of sidewall cuts.) Michelin made the point that their 7.50, 9.00, 11.00 and larger sand tires "flattened like the treads of a tank" when aired down and thus did not "scratch" (griff en Francais) the ground.

This is something that Michael has been stressing; a narrow radial tire may produce a longer, tank track like contact patch while a wider cross ply will produce a more oval patch. Granted, there are not a lot of non-radial tires out there any more, but the potential advantates of length vs. width are worth considering. I remember a rather surprised post on an Australian 4x4 site where someone was quite amazed at how well his 7.50x16's worked. He noted that he had to air down sooner, but that once he did, he kept up with all of the ballon runners.

In the case of my imfamous picture; the real problem was that I couldn't stay in 4x4. But beyond that, the next problem was that the H78x15 tire was simply too small. Ironically, had I been runing a set of 7.50x16's, in 4x4, at a reasonable pressure, I would have sailed right through - despite not having a limited slip differential.

So, I would propose:

-- Diameter is useful in overlanding to get up out of the mud, sand, and away from rocks, etc. This is especially important in a camper vehicle which may have un protected fuel and water tanks, and other delicate items hanging down.

-- Once a tire is wide enough, extra width may not add anymore off-road capability and may actually hurt preformance in rain, snow, and some mud.

Big enough and wide enough will be determined by vehicle size and weight.
 

JamesDowning

Explorer
I build bicycle wheels from time to time and there are huge debates as to whether a bicycle wheel stands on its spokes or hangs from them. Bottom line is that it requires even tension for strength. (And I have forgotten the answer - I just put spokes all around and tensioned them the same! :) )

The spokes are always in tension! Try putting the bottom 1/4" of the spokes in, and sit on the bike. The spokes will buckle easily and give way. Try the same thing with only the top 1/4" spokes on... it will hold you up, but the rim will bend at the bottom... very similar to a car tire that is underinflated. Now, try to fix it by adding more spokes. If you add the spokes directly over the contact patch, it will not support the rim any more, they will just bend over as the rim deflects... however, add spokes in where the rim has bulged away from the hub the furthest, and it will act to stabilize the rim even more.

The tread of a tire is analogous to the rim of the bike wheel. The spokes are similar to sidewall. They support the tread/rim in tension only.

Tightening the spokes on a bike rim is the same as adding more air to a tire. You are increasing the tension in the spokes/sidewall. Sidewall tension is essentially equal to the hoop stress due to the pressure. Even the side wall at the contact patch is under tension due to the internal pressure of the tire. (Think of a balloon... as soon as you blow it up, the surface becomes in tension... now flatten it against a table top... is there any difference? Its still in tension!)

Sorry for the long response, especially since this isn't the root discussion here... I love physics related questions though!
 

Redline

Likes to Drive and Ride
Nice, well-grounded addition to the discussion sir.

snip..........

So, I would propose:

-- Diameter is useful in overlanding to get up out of the mud, sand, and away from rocks, etc. This is especially important in a camper vehicle which may have un protected fuel and water tanks, and other delicate items hanging down.

-- Once a tire is wide enough, extra width may not add anymore off-road capability and may actually hurt preformance in rain, snow, and some mud.

Big enough and wide enough will be determined by vehicle size and weight.
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
The spokes are always in tension! Try putting the bottom 1/4" of the spokes in, and sit on the bike. The spokes will buckle easily and give way. Try the same thing with only the top 1/4" spokes on... it will hold you up, but the rim will bend at the bottom... very similar to a car tire that is underinflated. Now, try to fix it by adding more spokes. If you add the spokes directly over the contact patch, it will not support the rim any more, they will just bend over as the rim deflects... however, add spokes in where the rim has bulged away from the hub the furthest, and it will act to stabilize the rim even more.

The tread of a tire is analogous to the rim of the bike wheel. The spokes are similar to sidewall. They support the tread/rim in tension only.

Tightening the spokes on a bike rim is the same as adding more air to a tire. You are increasing the tension in the spokes/sidewall. Sidewall tension is essentially equal to the hoop stress due to the pressure. Even the side wall at the contact patch is under tension due to the internal pressure of the tire. (Think of a balloon... as soon as you blow it up, the surface becomes in tension... now flatten it against a table top... is there any difference? Its still in tension!)

Sorry for the long response, especially since this isn't the root discussion here... I love physics related questions though!

Well described!
 

Stumpalump

Expedition Leader
I use both. 255x85r16 BFG KM2's on my 4x4 van and 35x13.50x15 BFG Krawlers on my 98 Jeep Cherokee. I love both for these reasons: The wide tire rules off road. It has a wider more stable stance when off camber, It stays on top of the small bumps instead of falling down into every little crack. The extra weight keeps a low center of gravity. When aired down they wrap around rocks and stumps like a hand over a baseball then just plain stick like glue. I do use bead locks to take advantage of the capability's described. I also put that pig on a trailer and pull it if I'm going much further than a hundred miles.
I also love my tall skinny tires. They drive like stock, I can keep my steering and suspension near stock. I can jump in and head to Montana right now. I don't break as many axles ,u-joints steering components and over all it's less wear and tare on the whole rig. It's still a nice mud tire so yes it also works off road just not like a huge heavy off road tire like my Krawlers will. So for those deciding, if you drive it on the road a lot then stick with skinny because they still work off road. If you are building a mostly trail rig then wide is king because they are safer with the extra weight and wider stance they just suck on the road and are hard on stock components, zap power and kill mpg.
 

Redline

Likes to Drive and Ride
There it is again, well stated.

Very much in agreement with many of the knowledgeable opinions here, and supporting Mr. Brady's tire selection white paper.

Make you choice and accept the results.

Snip.......... So for those deciding, if you drive it on the road a lot then stick with skinny because they still work off road. If you are building a mostly trail rig then wide is king because they are safer with the extra weight and wider stance they just suck on the road and are hard on stock components, zap power and kill mpg.
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
There it is again, well stated.

Very much in agreement with many of the knowledgeable opinions here, and supporting Mr. Brady's tire selection white paper.

Make you choice and accept the results.

Snip.......... So for those deciding, if you drive it on the road a lot then stick with skinny because they still work off road. If you are building a mostly trail rig then wide is king because they are safer with the extra weight and wider stance they just suck on the road and are hard on stock components, zap power and kill mpg.

Well, except that as I understand it, that's not a summary of Mr Brady's conclusions. Taller, narrower tyres are better in most off-road situations, and in fact the strengths of wide tyres come into play at higher speeds, cornering, etc.!

Your last sentence is spot on, though!
 

Redline

Likes to Drive and Ride
Maybe so, though I like to think of Brady's work as intentionally biased toward 'expedition' type off-highway travel and rigs, not just 'pure' off road use...

My expirence on my moderately build utility vehicle is that in many (most?) cases I prefer a moderate width 255/85r16, over what I think of as a wide tire, 285/75r16 (again on a street driven rig). That stated, I have found a 235 (almost) wide tread to be a bit narrow off-highway. The vehicle, it's set-up and use all matters.

Like we said, make a choice and live with... Or just buy more tires and try something different :)

Well, except that as I understand it, that's not a summary of Mr Brady's conclusions. Taller, narrower tyres are better in most off-road situations, and in fact the strengths of wide tyres come into play at higher speeds, cornering, etc.!

Your last sentence is spot on, though!
 

roostercruiser

Adventurer
what would the perfect tire size be for my burban. i have 285/75/16 now i was thinking of 37 /12.5. 37's are the biggiest i can fit with alittle trimming.
i have a 6 inch lift and live and wheel in colorado?
 

jh504

Explorer
what would the perfect tire size be for my burban. i have 285/75/16 now i was thinking of 37 /12.5. 37's are the biggiest i can fit with alittle trimming.
i have a 6 inch lift and live and wheel in colorado?

If it were me I would role with 315/75r16. I have a 1500 and that is the tire size I plan on eventually running. I know some would say go narrower but a suburban is a big heavy beast. I like the 35 12.50 tire size for big heavy stuff.
 

daverami

Explorer
I've been following this thread with interest, and there is enough material to probably have a graduate course in tire tech. Great!

I've been looking for a little larger in diameter tire for my 06 Tacoma. I have a 265/75R16 setup now. I've been looking at 255/85R16 and 285/75R16 tires.

A couple tires, among many, I have looked at are the new Goodyear DuraTrac in 285, and the Toyo MT in 255. The Toyo is taller and narrower, but weights 60 lbs. The Goodyear is 58 lbs. They are both an E tire. Would the taller and narrower tire perform better, i.e. less gas mileage and performance lose, even though it is a bit heavier? I was curious about that. With either size I go, I am going to do a regear anyway.
 

Redline

Likes to Drive and Ride
Yes.

Approx. a 1 to 2 mpg difference between the two, but there are many variables (like; tread void, rolling resistance, is the 285 a 'tall' 285, 33+", or a standard 32.8", etc., etc.)

The two tires are close, I have found width to be more of an issue than weight when it comes to repeatable MPG testing. I would say that the 255 is favored in that the Toyo MT is stated to have a very tall 33.5" height, and clearance will be better/easier tan with 285s (chains, full stuff, etc.). Make sure you are fully informed about the (excellent) Toyo MT which my full-time 4Runner doesn't like (in the Toyo threads/FAQs).

snip......

Would the taller and narrower tire perform better, i.e. less gas mileage and performance lose, even though it is a bit heavier? I was curious about that. With either size I go, I am going to do a regear anyway.
 

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