Winch efficiency: line speed, amperage, and heat factor

RoyJ

Adventurer
Any chance you could do this for the ComeUp DV9? This winch is the same as the Superwinch EP9 (no longer available) and the Viking GS9. I'd be interested in how it stacks up.

For sure. All the info is based on what's listed on ComeUp's site:

http://www.comeupwinch.com/pro/detail.php?pid=167&cid=128&f=#.VuePAuIrJhE

Calculations:

Table.jpg

Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:

Speed Amp.jpg

Power output and efficiency:

Power ******.jpg


Summary:

1) I have to start by saying I'm a little suspicious of the performance number, they're a bit too good for a generic 4.6 series wound motor, running an industry standard gearing of 156:1 (for a 9000 lbs class).

2) At 2000 lbs line pull, this winch achieves an efficiency of 51.4%, high than even the spur geared 8274!? Not only that, efficiency plateaued at mid-40's all the way to 8000 lbs. Hmmm

3) By comparison, a Warn XD9000i, also 4.6hp motor geared at 156:1, has the exact same performance (15 ft/min) but an efficiency of 35% (161A vs 110A). This is more believable...

4) Power output is also very high for a 4.6hp motor at 1356 watts. By comparison, a 6hp 9.5XP produced 1338 watts of output.

4) I'm not going to claim false advertising yet, as ComeUp's claims for the Blazer seems very honest. But I'll certainly look into a few more of their models to watch for a pattern, and also check out some more manufacturers.
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
ComeUps coming up!

I'll be looking at their "Self Recovery" DV-series. These are gray looking units a lot like Warn's industrial Series line, although ComeUp do not consider these their "industrial" winches.

Starting with the DV-12 light. Compared to the regular DV-12, it uses a weaker motor (4.6hp vs 5.6hp), AND a taller gearing (211:1 vs 261:1). That would normally sounds like a bad idea, but perhaps the 4.6hp is wound differently for torque than high rpm hp.

Calculations:

Table.jpg

Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:

Speed Amp.jpg

Power output and efficiency:

Power ******.jpg


Summary:

1) ComeUp's numbers are very hard to understand / explain. If this winch uses the same 4.6hp motor as the DV9, and the gearing has been upped to reflect the higher line pull (211:1 vs 156:1), then why do we have such a difference in power output and efficiency?

2) Power output is now 904 watts, which is now well below the Warn 4.6hp units. What happened?

3) Power output is CONSTANT throughout the line pull. This goes against all DC motor theory. But if true, that means using a snatch block on this winch will not gain you any speed, anywhere.

4) Efficiency peaks at a hard to believe 61.5%, but quickly drops to a much more believable 20 - 30% range at above 2000 lbs.

For now, I'll just say the 4.6hp ComeUp is one weird DC motor...
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
The full size DV-12. From 12k lbs onwards, the winches appear to share identical housing, and only motor and gearing is changed, much like the Series 12 - 15 - 18 from Warn.

DV-12 uses a 5.6 hp motor, and 261:1 gearing.

Calculations:

Table.jpg

Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:

Speed Amp.jpg

Power output and efficiency:

Power ******.jpg


Summary:

1) We're finally seeing some believable motor efficiency curves, with that classic shape of a peak followed by a steady fall!

2) The performance itself is not all that flattering, and is actually WORSE than the DV-9's 4.6hp motor. Wonder why?

3) Efficiency starts off at 32%, and falls steadily to 20%.

4) Power remains on a relatively steady climb, which means this motor has not been over-geared.

5) Overall a decent winch, but nothing special at all.
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
DV-15. Uses the same 5.6hp motor as the DV-12, but now geared at 315:1. The specs are very similar to the Warn Series 15.

Calculations:

Table.jpg

Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:

Speed Amp.jpg

Power output and efficiency:

Power ******.jpg


Summary:

1) Beginning to see some consistency here. Compared to the DV-12, this winch exhibits fairly similar power and efficiency curves.

2) In terms of power, this winch is not that great: 848 watts (only 1.1hp) vs the DV-12's 1085 watts. This may be due to the extra gearing of 315:1, but, the Warn Series 15 uses the same gearing and puts out a massive 1763 watts!

Getting what you pay for? This is certainly not what I expect out of a "5.6hp" motor.

3) Efficiency peaks at 37% and falls steadily to 20%. Nothing to see here.

4) Overall, another very unspectacular winch, and I would NOT want to mount a 150 lbs honking piece of iron that only puts out 1.1hp. On the other hand, it shows ComeUp is probably truthful in their claims.
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
Finally, the grand daddy DV-18, which uses a 7.0hp motor and the same 315:1 ratio. Hope this implies the motor is tuned for more torque (than the 5.6hp) and not just geared too tall for an 18k lbs class winch.

Calculations:

Table.jpg

Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:

Speed Amp.jpg

Power output and efficiency:

Power ******.jpg


Summary:

1) WHOA! I'm going to raise the BS flag all the way to the top of the pole on this one. 90.4% motor effiency!? 2543 watts output!?

2) Unless this is an honest typo, ComeUp better come up a VERY good explanation for me to believe all this. The only way to get close to those efficiency number is a multi-phase, brushless AC synchronous motor run by a sophisticated VFD setup. You're looking at at least $5000 for a setup like that.

3) Even then, achieving 90.4% motor efficiency is one thing, but to maintain that through a triple planetary gear-train? Newton is tossing and turning in his grave by now.

4) Only the very last performance spec (18k lbs line pull) is believable.

5) Until ComeUp provides and explanation, I'm disregarding this winch.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Saw that, and love it.

I think this is the most practical upgrade for anyone with an old 8274. The twin motors are sexy, but looking at the power usage of the ComeUp Blazer, most of us would kill our electrical system very quickly.

The New Zealand guy running twin 7.0hp motors have 2 8D bus batteries (160 lbs each!) and something like 3 alternators.

Right, if I was that serious about winching I would be looking at a PTO and/or hydraulic system. I think someone could do some really neat things with an automatic transmission and a PTO drive off the transfer case...
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
I think this is likely the case for self recovery in technical, but not not sticky / tacky terrain. And for most of us this may well be the most common situation.

But my study also caters to a greater audience - there are folks who use winch for extended self recovery, AND others, in deep "boggy" terrains, such as mud bog and deep snow. Compound it with a disabled vehicle, and you're often in for a long and hard pull.

This is a prime target for power and efficiency. Without looking at the graphs, few people would think a snatch block on a stock 8274 would let them pull faster, AND use less power. A 100' pull in a mud bog that would other wise destroy a battery (or burn out a motor), can be done with relative ease.

I do agree that when the winch is near the rated capacity, a double line pull can be more efficient.

I still question if it is worth it, and ultimately more efficient in the end....

#1, you have to know what the pull load is going to be. We don't have a way to do this yet. And we don't have a way to do this without rigging the winch in the 1st place.....other than guessing.

If you're stuck hood deep in a mud bog, you can guess the load is going to be pretty high, but you could also guess that there might be a stump or hidden rock up against the front axle. It won't matter how hard you pull, or how fast, if you haven't properly evaluated and prepared the recovery. This could also include having to pivot the vehicle or trying to winch backwards.

As I mentioned before, double lining the winch also has drawbacks that need to be figured in.

-The distance you can reach is halved. If your making a long pull, you may have to re-rig which costs time, complexity, requires more than one anchor, and exposure to mechanical physical injury.
-The no-load winch speed is halved. So if the vehicle can help, the chance of over-running the winch goes up drastically. If you lose tension on the line you can also jump the pulley on the snatch block which is never fun.
-The chance of damaging the line goes up. Both lines are now moving relative to the vehicle. This exposes more of the winch line to more damage.

Personally, I am going to default to a single line pull unless I have trouble. In my experience, this is going to work the majority of the time. Rigging the vehicle up and trying to pull (perhaps recording line speed?) is about the only way to know what the load is actually going to be. There is going to be a 'feel' component to it also. I've had a snatch block, and enough rigging, to effect a double line pull in my recovery bag for a long long time. I honestly just don't find myself using it for double line pulling. I do commonly use it to redirect a single line pull for a more advantageous angle when recovering other people. I wouldn't leave it out of my bag.

In the end, this is a good thread. I appreciate pushing people to expand how they think about vehicle recovery.
I just have a different opinion.
 

Two Jeeps

New member
Drum Diameter

I curious to know where drum diameter comes into play. The last 4 winches have different drum diameters.
DV 12 lite: 2.5”
DV 12: 3.5”
DV 15: 3.5”
Warn Series 15: 4”

Most Warn consumer winches have 2.65” for synthetic rope and 2.5” for wire rope. The M8274-50 has a 3.5” diameter drum.
To me the drum diameter would come into play with the overall line speed and current draw.
 

comptiger5000

Adventurer
I curious to know where drum diameter comes into play. The last 4 winches have different drum diameters.
DV 12 lite: 2.5”
DV 12: 3.5”
DV 15: 3.5”
Warn Series 15: 4”

Most Warn consumer winches have 2.65” for synthetic rope and 2.5” for wire rope. The M8274-50 has a 3.5” diameter drum.
To me the drum diameter would come into play with the overall line speed and current draw.

Definitely. The effective gearing is really a result of the actual gearing and the drum diameter. Bigger drum will make for taller effective gearing.
 

lpstroker

New member
I drove tow trucks for several years, the one I liked best had two PTO winches. It was a beast! then there were the hydraulic winches using PTO pumps, they were ok but not nearly as fast or powerful as the pto's. I have a 10500# mile marker hydraulic on my CTD. It is slow but oh so powerful, it can winch all day long with synth line. It does have two speeds so rewinding the line after a recovery is fast. It does use the power steering pump and works fine, I even still have steering and hydro boos brakes while winching. I will never have another electric winch on any vehicle I own.

What winch carrier are you using? I saw a picture of your rig (Looks awesome)(http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/116911-Full-Size-Dodge-Thread?p=1437773#post1437773) and it looks like a brush guard I have on my 04 CTD 2500. I obviously know I'm not going to bolt a winch to what I have now, but I'd really like to get the one you have to replace it with.
 

aardvarcus

Adventurer
RoyJ,

May I request you run the numbers on a smaller and lighter permanent magnet winch, such as the Warn ProVantage 4500? This winch seems to have a lot of pulling power for its weight, with a downside of a less than stellar duty cycle. I have considered this winch on a movable mount mainly for general purpose use with the idea of being able to perform an occasional self recovery using a snatch block. I really don't want the weight penalty of a "normal" winch since I feel I won't need the capability it offers.
 

RedF

Adventurer
Have you ran the specs on a Warn M8000? They've been produced for ages, and there's quite a lot of them around.
 

Rando

Explorer
At 4000 lbs, calculating power OUTPUT: 10.3 ft/min * 4000 lbs = 41200 ft-lbs/min or 1.25 hp
Power INPUT: 252A x 12V = 3024 watts = 4.05 hp
Efficiency = 1.25/4.05 = 31% (this sounds low, but keep in mind the friction of the planetary gears and cable)
Heat generated = (4.05-1.25) x 746 = 2089 watts

Now that right there is a great argument for the metric system!

All joking aside, a very interesting analysis. Thanks for taking the time to do this, it certainly changes my thoughts about winches.
 

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