Winch efficiency: line speed, amperage, and heat factor
- Thread starter RoyJ
- Start date
Last time we left off at the Warn Series 15 industrial winch, which uses a 6hp 70865 motor. So far, this is our champ for all out power at 1763 watts. This is amazing considering the 14hp rated ComeUp Blazer only puts out 2066 watts (at 2000 lbs). Either Warn is seriously conservative, or ComeUp is optimistic.
Let's see how it compares to Warn's other 6hp winch, the 9.5XP.
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
1) Even though the efficiency is higher than the shorter geared Series 15, it's only barely - 1%. This is well within the margin of error, so for all intended purposes the two winches have equal efficiency.
2) Power, big surprise here. Even though both motors are 6hp, both are from Bosche, and both winches are Warn, the Series 15 makes dramatically more power than the 9.5XP - 1763 vs 1338 watts.
3) I will say though, both 6hp winches are geared very well for their respective line pull. At max pull, both are hitting the very peak of power output.
4) Because these winches produce max power at max pull, they would be POOR candidates for using a snatch block to gear down, unless you're strictly after efficiency. Any gear-down at max line pull would results in a SLOWER pull (in contrast to the 8274, and Blazer)
5) If you're really 12V power strapped (weak alternator and/or dying battery), you can still use a snatch block to gain around 30% efficiency (from 22.5% to 35%), but only if you're pulling near max ratings.
Let's see how it compares to Warn's other 6hp winch, the 9.5XP.
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
1) Even though the efficiency is higher than the shorter geared Series 15, it's only barely - 1%. This is well within the margin of error, so for all intended purposes the two winches have equal efficiency.
2) Power, big surprise here. Even though both motors are 6hp, both are from Bosche, and both winches are Warn, the Series 15 makes dramatically more power than the 9.5XP - 1763 vs 1338 watts.
3) I will say though, both 6hp winches are geared very well for their respective line pull. At max pull, both are hitting the very peak of power output.
4) Because these winches produce max power at max pull, they would be POOR candidates for using a snatch block to gear down, unless you're strictly after efficiency. Any gear-down at max line pull would results in a SLOWER pull (in contrast to the 8274, and Blazer)
5) If you're really 12V power strapped (weak alternator and/or dying battery), you can still use a snatch block to gain around 30% efficiency (from 22.5% to 35%), but only if you're pulling near max ratings.
Zeon 12 Platinum
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
1) In my initial study, I though the Zeon 12 Platinum to be a very efficient winch, and the numbers prove that. The peak efficiency (43.1%) is approaching the spur gear 8274 (49.1%), but what's really amazing is the efficiency plateau from 2000 all the way to 8000 lbs, where it stays above 37%.
2) This means anything under 8000 lbs, you'd be wasting time using a snatch block. Or in other words, if you prefer the simplicity if using a single line any where any time, this is the winch to get!
3) I'd really like to know what Warn did with this winch in terms of motor and gear train selection. Not even their industrial Series 15 close to touching this in efficiency.
4) Efficiency does take a SHARP decline as you approach max line pull (12k lbs). Therefore, for extended operation at that level, I'd recommended a snatch block.
5) If you do use a snatch block, power stays pretty much identical (1207 watts @ 6k vs 1221 watts @ 12k). So your pulling speed is pretty much identical either way.
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
1) In my initial study, I though the Zeon 12 Platinum to be a very efficient winch, and the numbers prove that. The peak efficiency (43.1%) is approaching the spur gear 8274 (49.1%), but what's really amazing is the efficiency plateau from 2000 all the way to 8000 lbs, where it stays above 37%.
2) This means anything under 8000 lbs, you'd be wasting time using a snatch block. Or in other words, if you prefer the simplicity if using a single line any where any time, this is the winch to get!
3) I'd really like to know what Warn did with this winch in terms of motor and gear train selection. Not even their industrial Series 15 close to touching this in efficiency.
4) Efficiency does take a SHARP decline as you approach max line pull (12k lbs). Therefore, for extended operation at that level, I'd recommended a snatch block.
5) If you do use a snatch block, power stays pretty much identical (1207 watts @ 6k vs 1221 watts @ 12k). So your pulling speed is pretty much identical either way.
Warn Endurance 12
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
To be honest, I don't see the point of this winch over the Zeon 12 Platinum, it's worse in every way.
1) Warn claims this winch has the highest duty cycle. It may, but that's strictly due to the forced air cooling, and not from increased efficiency (or lowered heat rejection).
2) It's not an inefficient winch, but at every line pull, it's lower than the Zeon, especially past 4000 lbs.
3) The power trend is very similar to other 4.6hp motors, in the sense that power peaks well before max pull, and BOTH power efficiency takes a nosedive near max pull.
4) This winch would benefit greatly from a snatch block as you approach 12k lbs. You gain speed AND efficiency, one of those win-win cases again.
Unless there are specific requests, this pretty much concludes my Warn study. I'd say the most distinctive pattern I've seen is the performance of 4.6 vs 6.0hp motors.
The 6hp are not that efficient, neither crested 40%, but they do offer very impressive performance. Basically, the power does not fall off, the harder you pull, the more power it develops, with an appetite to match. Do not use a snatch block unless you're past peak ratings and are in danger of equipment damage, or strictly for power savings.
In contrast, the 4.6hp motors peaks in power around 60 - 70% of their rated line pull. After that, the winches strain, puts out less power, but continue to suck down large amounts of amps. They benefit the most of "gearing down" using a snatch block.
Next, I'll be looking into other manufacturers.
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
To be honest, I don't see the point of this winch over the Zeon 12 Platinum, it's worse in every way.
1) Warn claims this winch has the highest duty cycle. It may, but that's strictly due to the forced air cooling, and not from increased efficiency (or lowered heat rejection).
2) It's not an inefficient winch, but at every line pull, it's lower than the Zeon, especially past 4000 lbs.
3) The power trend is very similar to other 4.6hp motors, in the sense that power peaks well before max pull, and BOTH power efficiency takes a nosedive near max pull.
4) This winch would benefit greatly from a snatch block as you approach 12k lbs. You gain speed AND efficiency, one of those win-win cases again.
Unless there are specific requests, this pretty much concludes my Warn study. I'd say the most distinctive pattern I've seen is the performance of 4.6 vs 6.0hp motors.
The 6hp are not that efficient, neither crested 40%, but they do offer very impressive performance. Basically, the power does not fall off, the harder you pull, the more power it develops, with an appetite to match. Do not use a snatch block unless you're past peak ratings and are in danger of equipment damage, or strictly for power savings.
In contrast, the 4.6hp motors peaks in power around 60 - 70% of their rated line pull. After that, the winches strain, puts out less power, but continue to suck down large amounts of amps. They benefit the most of "gearing down" using a snatch block.
Next, I'll be looking into other manufacturers.
Stumpalump
Expedition Leader
Line speed is all to worry about. When stuck on a hill it needs to pull fast enough to get the vehicle moving under its own power again. When you do start moving you need fast line speed to spool in the slack so you don't run over the cable or slide backward with a lot of slack. Fast is king. A slow winch will make you winch the whole way up. A fast one gets you moving with your tires. The OP mentioned pulling multiple vehicles. If you pull them fast enough that they can claw out then your time using the winch is much reduced mitigating the facts and figures in this discussion. Select your winch based on line speed first then factor in other variables as needed.
fishEH
Explorer
There's a lot more to it than line speed. In fact there's a fair number of people that prefer a slower winch.
The fact is the fastest winches usually utilize a feet forward mount and are odd sized which present mounting issues on non-custom bumpers. What's more is these fast winches come with a VERY hefty price tag.
I would say the flow chart should start with fitment. What will fit on your rig? Then price. How much are you willing to spend on a winch? Then you'll want to take into account things like amp draw at full load, stall ratings, line speed, line capacity, synthetic line compatibility, and solenoid type.
The fact is the fastest winches usually utilize a feet forward mount and are odd sized which present mounting issues on non-custom bumpers. What's more is these fast winches come with a VERY hefty price tag.
I would say the flow chart should start with fitment. What will fit on your rig? Then price. How much are you willing to spend on a winch? Then you'll want to take into account things like amp draw at full load, stall ratings, line speed, line capacity, synthetic line compatibility, and solenoid type.
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
I would have to agree with this. I have found most of the time that the pull loads required and the duration of pull is fairly short. The vehicle only needs a bit of help to get moving again. If the winch cannot keep up you end up having to stop/wait for the winch to catch up.
I have also done a lot of recoveries where I needed to go slow. I have never had a fast winch be too fast however. I just let of the button when I didn't need the extra speed. For technical recovery, like where you are trying to trip a vehicle back over, you are just bumping the button. I don't really see this as a downside....
I do find that there are VERY few winches ( especially in the USA ) that are standouts for free line speed. The only one I can think of are the 8274 ( and other early uprights ). Other than those, most of the winches available on the market are all pretty much the same for free line speeds at about 30-45 fpm pretty much. There are a few breakouts emerging like the Superwinch Talon 9.5 and 12, which is up into the 60fpm range.
On the EXTREME fringe you have some Euro comp winches that can be 'too fast' for safe handling. They have stared to retrofit air brake systems to make sure the winch STOPS when you let off the button. Some of those winches can suck in 2-3 feet of line with just rotational momentum. That is the FRINGE however.
fishEH
Explorer
Sounds like we use our our winches pretty differently.
A locking center diff, air lockers front and rear, and 35" KM2's mean when I get stuck, I get STUCK. When I use my winch its for long, sustained pulls. Repositioning and multiple pulls. Up severely steep and muddy inclines. In a ditch in deep snow. On a side hill leaning up against a tree. All situations where it takes more than "just a little pull to regain traction".
For those situations where a short pull is all thats really needed I'd much rather whip out the kinetic rope and have someone give a quick tug.
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
Lets see....
Transfer case that 'locks'...check
Front and rear lockers...check
35" tires....check
Winch...check
I've done multiple multi-thousand mile trips all over the country from Colorado to Montana to Georgia. That included doing Ultimate Adventure in 2014 and 2015 with 4-wheel and Off-Road magazine. I have done everything from deep mud, deep sand, deep snow, steep rock, big boulders, or whatever.
Now that we have our credentials out of the way.....along with a little winch line length measuring or whatever...
MOST of the time I find that a 'little help' is all that I require from the winch. The vehicle can still do a lot of the work. If your having to use the winch at maximum capacity for extended periods of time, I feel you are not prepping the recovery site/situation correctly. If I am having to use THAT much capacity out of the winch, it is worth my time to spend a little more time with a shovel, stacking rocks, stacking some cribbing, or whatever.
I guess it just boils down to preference in how I use the tool.
Last edited:
Can we talk about 8274 motor swaps yet?
I wonder what is 'better'....stock motor, 9.5xp motor, or the industrial 15 motor?
And that's exactly why I studied the efficiency of the 9.5XP vs Series 15. Based on what I read on Pirate, I thought both winches have identical Bosch 6.0hp motors, the only difference being weather sealing. But based on what I find, I'd gladly pay the extra $100 for the Series 15 motor.
Power and Efficiency, 9.5XP:
Power and Efficiency, Series 15:
The Series 15 industrial motor generates 425 watts (0.57 hp) more output than the 9.5XP, and does so with a broader efficiency curve that doesn't drop nearly as much at max line pull.
The 8274 + Series 15 motor should be an absolute monster!
I think this is likely the case for self recovery in technical, but not not sticky / tacky terrain. And for most of us this may well be the most common situation.
But my study also caters to a greater audience - there are folks who use winch for extended self recovery, AND others, in deep "boggy" terrains, such as mud bog and deep snow. Compound it with a disabled vehicle, and you're often in for a long and hard pull.
This is a prime target for power and efficiency. Without looking at the graphs, few people would think a snatch block on a stock 8274 would let them pull faster, AND use less power. A 100' pull in a mud bog that would other wise destroy a battery (or burn out a motor), can be done with relative ease.