I Leak Oil
Expedition Leader
Wasn't that affectionately called the "suck factor"?
Winch efficiency: line speed, amperage, and heat factor
- Thread starter RoyJ
- Start date
I have also heard this from a long-time Warn Red Letter Dealer. There is something to be said for the 8274's spur gearing when speed is considered.
I wonder how putting a 6.0 hp Warn 9.5xp motor will change things as many have done.
Here are some ways to calculate recovery resistance calculations. There are also "mire factors" that are used for different media one may find themselves stuck in. At the end of the day, rigging your winch to get the most "pulling power" through mechanical advantage will hopefully get you unstuck when you are mired badly.
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ducktapeguy
Adventurer
Interesting information, thanks for taking the time to put it all together. Not sure when I'll ever use the info, but it's always good to have more info than not.
I was just wondering what is causing the huge differences between winches? Between the 8274 and 9.5xp or other similar rated winches, I can imagine the gear train efficiencies and motor differences have something to do with it. But when you compare the 8274 with the Comeup, something just doesn't seem right. At the same load, the Comeup is 4x slower but drawing 2x the current. So for 2 identical pulls, you're using 8X the power for the same distance. Where is all the extra energy being wasted? Given the Comeup is a new winch with much more powerful rated motors, it seems like the difference is extreme. Could the different companies be rating amp draws differently, i.e. peak vs average?
Also, if you factor in having to unwind and wind up 2x as much cable for each pull, even at no load, for a double line pull, how much does that decrease efficiency from the added gains? Too tired to even think about calculating it, but I'd be curious to know.
I was just wondering what is causing the huge differences between winches? Between the 8274 and 9.5xp or other similar rated winches, I can imagine the gear train efficiencies and motor differences have something to do with it. But when you compare the 8274 with the Comeup, something just doesn't seem right. At the same load, the Comeup is 4x slower but drawing 2x the current. So for 2 identical pulls, you're using 8X the power for the same distance. Where is all the extra energy being wasted? Given the Comeup is a new winch with much more powerful rated motors, it seems like the difference is extreme. Could the different companies be rating amp draws differently, i.e. peak vs average?
Also, if you factor in having to unwind and wind up 2x as much cable for each pull, even at no load, for a double line pull, how much does that decrease efficiency from the added gains? Too tired to even think about calculating it, but I'd be curious to know.
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
I was thinking about this last night. Looking at the gear ratios of the 8274 and 9.5xp they are pretty close.
The 8274 is 134:1
The 9.5XP is 156:1
The 9.5xp motor seems to be a popular upgrade. The other option in the USA that keeps coming up is the WARN 70865. That is the motor off the 15K industrial winch I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4yo1dgMeBo
Glad you found the info interesting.
I wondered the same thing about the Blazer, and then one look at the gear ratios you'll see why - 33.5:1 !!!
http://www.comeupwinch-blazer.com/specifications.php
Couldn't believe my eyes when I first saw it. It's geared 4 TIMES taller than an 8274, which itself is the tallest geared winch around.
Looking back at the motor curves I posted earlier, I would guess the peak power on a Blazer is around 2000 lbs (and my prior math supports that). At 8000 lbs, it's probably VERY close to the stall current, and the motor efficiency is in the single digits. Quick math:
8000 lbs x 2.3 ft/min / 33000 ft-lb/min/hp = 0.56 hp, or 416 watts
939 amp x 12V = 11,268 watts
So, motor efficiency of 3.7%, and 96.3% is wasted as heat! Like I said, it's essentially a space heater at this point (that happens to pull a rope).
Repeating the math for 2000 lbs shows:
2000 x 45.7 / 33000 = 2.77 hp = 2066 watts
395 amp x 12 = 4740 watts
Efficiency = 43.6%
MUCH better! This is why I wanted to present this kind of data, to help people realize where to operate their winch.
Is the Blazer a poorly designed winch? Hell no! For its intended purpose - fast paced competition where you want a 2000 lbs assist, but moving along at eh, blazing pace, then it's as perfect as it can be.
But if we mis-use a winch and try to extract a stuck F350 in deep mud, we just might start an electrical fire, or kill an expensive battery / alternator at best...
I agree, most extractions are probably far from max line pull. The best way I can think of is a DC clamp meter on the winch input, then, with the given winch's chart in hand, we'll have a rough idea of where we are (in both speed and line pull). If I get around to experimenting with a 2-speed winch, I may use amperage as a parameter to shift from high to low gear.
If the pull start out easy, and remain in the 200 - 300 amp range (like in Scott's Unimog test), then it's better to stay in high gear, and maintain power / line speed, than shift to low (or snatch up) and gain a bit of efficiency at a larger loss in speed.
If the amperage jumps to 400 and sustains for more than say 5 seconds, then shift to low gear.
Exactly why I passed on a good deal for a new in box 16.5ti @ $1200 Cdn
It's too heavy for my LX470. I planned on a rear hitch mount, so once I'm all done, with 30' of 0 gauge, I'm at 200 lbs. That's what started this whole study actually - I loved the efficiency of the 16.5ti in the 4000 - 8000 lbs (vs an XD9000), and wondered how to achieve the same efficiency with a smaller winch. That's when the idea of using a snatch block as a gear-train came to be.
I'm willing to bet it's a type. All their other 12-rated winches are 216:1. I do wonder how they achieve faster line speeds and lower amps on the Platinum version, vs regular Zeon? I can't find any real data on the motor differences.
I looked up the HI9000 on their site, but have to say for my use, the performance just doesn't justify the cost and complexity of the setup. Mainly because I want a portable setup, so I'd have to run quick disconnect hydraulics.
If I use the stock PS pump, I'll have to factor in the effects on reliability. With a complicated variable steering rack and hydro boost brakes, I cannot afford a pump failure. I've also got a small hydro reservoir, so while a hydro winch can theoretically run 100% duty cycle, in reality, it'll overheat the fluid, probably quicker than an electric winch running low amps with a snatch block.
If I add a second pump and hydraulic circuit, then I might as well get a high performance winch. I mentioned the $750 deal I found on a Warn XL20 (look up the specs on that bad boy - 28.5 ft/min @ 20k lbs!), but the 400lbs weight scared me off real quick...
comptiger5000
Adventurer
Overheating is easy to fix. Run the low pressure return line through a trans cooler and you should have no problem keeping the fluid temps down. I did this for my power steering (no winch) with a 5x11 stacked plate cooler and you can usually touch the reservoir comfortably on all but the hottest summer days. The bigger issues are, as you mentioned, cost, portability and whether you need to upgrade the PS pump to get good results.
Why not throw the badlands 12k winch in the mix? I've used lots of electric winches over the years and the badlands has proven to be the best value. It always gets me out and it has a low amp draw. Granted it is slow but for me recovery is not a race and I prefer to take things slowly anyway. Plus it costs $300. Also, in a lot of calculations on this thread, I don't think duty cycle was factored in and a lot of the theoretical performance calculations are not as great once duty cycle kicks in.
I used to be a warn fanboy until I took one apart - not exactly heavy duty, lots of plastic and water/dust "resistant" at best. I clocked my Badlands and the components are at the same general level of ruggedness which is not exactly extreme duty but likewise on par with most other winches I've taken apart. The electric cables it comes with suck and you have to ditch the circuit breaker but other than that it does the job pretty well. At the end of the day, if a winch got you out then it did it's job - not really rocket science.
I also question some of the ratings manufacturers use since I do not think they use any industry standard. What really makes a 12k winch a 12k winch? Is that what load it stalls at or is that the load it can safely handle or is that the load where it breaks? How is the duty cycle factored in? The weight rating seems pretty useless, at least to me. I have a 5000 kg rated PTO Werner winch and a 16k electric winch looks laughable next to it.
If someone needs more than what a badlands 12k can handle, you should probably be looking at PTO and hydraulic winches. For light duty, low duty cycle stuff, electrics are fine but for serious pulling IMHO electric winches are just not up to the job. The duty cycles are too low, they are not sealed well enough, the motors overheat and die, solenoids become iffy, and they put a serious strain on the electrics. There is a reason nobody in any industry that involves winching use electric winches.
Anyway, for electric winch applications, I think the Badlands winch is worth looking at. If you really need something more, you may want to look into hydraulic winches despite the fact that they are usually trickery to install.
I used to be a warn fanboy until I took one apart - not exactly heavy duty, lots of plastic and water/dust "resistant" at best. I clocked my Badlands and the components are at the same general level of ruggedness which is not exactly extreme duty but likewise on par with most other winches I've taken apart. The electric cables it comes with suck and you have to ditch the circuit breaker but other than that it does the job pretty well. At the end of the day, if a winch got you out then it did it's job - not really rocket science.
I also question some of the ratings manufacturers use since I do not think they use any industry standard. What really makes a 12k winch a 12k winch? Is that what load it stalls at or is that the load it can safely handle or is that the load where it breaks? How is the duty cycle factored in? The weight rating seems pretty useless, at least to me. I have a 5000 kg rated PTO Werner winch and a 16k electric winch looks laughable next to it.
If someone needs more than what a badlands 12k can handle, you should probably be looking at PTO and hydraulic winches. For light duty, low duty cycle stuff, electrics are fine but for serious pulling IMHO electric winches are just not up to the job. The duty cycles are too low, they are not sealed well enough, the motors overheat and die, solenoids become iffy, and they put a serious strain on the electrics. There is a reason nobody in any industry that involves winching use electric winches.
Anyway, for electric winch applications, I think the Badlands winch is worth looking at. If you really need something more, you may want to look into hydraulic winches despite the fact that they are usually trickery to install.
I Leak Oil
Expedition Leader
There are plenty of threads about what type of system is better or preferred, same with brand fans. I think what RoyJ did was use some of the published stats to graphically compare those stats and showed how an 4000 lb pull is potentially quite different from one to another. How an upright differs from a planetary and how the size of the motor and gearing affect the power draw, potential heat, speed etc. How a snatch block doesn't necessarily mean half the speed.
Would be a nice change of pace if this didn't spiral into the typical which is better and why winch thread. There are already plenty of those out there.
Would be a nice change of pace if this didn't spiral into the typical which is better and why winch thread. There are already plenty of those out there.
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
This.
I am pretty much of the opinion that any of the $300-500 and up winches are just fine for 99.9% of what people are going to need to do off-road.
I am more interested in learning something new, sharing experiences, and helping to educate people on all the neat things they can do with their winch.
I think there are few major problems with winching in the USA.
#1, There is a stigma surrounding it. It seems almost shameful to have to use one in most circles.
#2, Cost and brand loyalty. Everyone seems to think you need a $1000-2000 overweight and overrated winch to sit on the front of your vehicle to be used once a year.
#3. Since #1 and #2 seem to have a big effect on how much a winch gets used, few people seem to know HOW to use their winch.
I'll get off my soap box now. Please continue.
I wasn't trying to get into which winch or type is better. Sorry if my post came off that way. I mentioned the Badlands to make the same point Metcalf made. I was just trying to broaden the thread a bit since it is about how different winches compare to each other. I was just trying to broaden the make and type, that's all.
The other point was that most electric winches have a terrible duty cycle, including the Badlands, and that has to be taken into account, especially if you are doing amps vs. load vs time comparisons. Finally, I've read a lot of winch comparison articles over the years and what strikes me is how often real world testing shows completely different specs than the manufacturers specs. Also something to consider when making comparisons.
Now I will get off my soap box.
The other point was that most electric winches have a terrible duty cycle, including the Badlands, and that has to be taken into account, especially if you are doing amps vs. load vs time comparisons. Finally, I've read a lot of winch comparison articles over the years and what strikes me is how often real world testing shows completely different specs than the manufacturers specs. Also something to consider when making comparisons.
Now I will get off my soap box.
I Leak Oil
Expedition Leader
I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'd love to see a wide variety of brands checked out the way RoyJ did it. By design type (upright vs. planetary vs. worm drive) and head to head (8K planetary vs. 8K planetary). The data isn't something I'm looking to whip out when I get stuck but it does help you think about what you're doing and does reinforce the use of a snatch block at times.
I'm sure some of the less well known brands are on par with the big 3, I'm also sure some are just turds in the long run.
I'm sure some of the less well known brands are on par with the big 3, I'm also sure some are just turds in the long run.
I'm going to work on this over the next few days. I'm collecting as many charts as I can, from as many manufacturers as I can. I will then put them in excel and plot line pull, line speed, amperage, and motor efficiency curves.
So far, it looks like performance across the manufacturers are very similar, and even swings in favor of the "lesser" brands. The Smittybilt XRC-9.5 for instance, pulls at 9.35 ft/min @ 8000 lbs, while consuming 380 amps. This is vastly superior to the 8274!
The big question of course, is how trust-worthy the numbers are, as there're no industry standards as far as I know.
We may know that better once we see a pattern of efficiency vs motor hp/make. If the 6hp+ generation of motors consistently pull better than the older 4hp motors, then perhaps the numbers are trustworthy, and simply shows a reluctance of larger manufacturers like Warn to jump onto the newer motors. We'll find out soon...