XPCamper goes out of business, files for bankruptcy?

[Bayou Boy]

I have a really good friend that has custom ordered several boats from a well known Florida builder. Not the biggest shop but they build quality skiffs at higher than average prices. Their deal is you give them a $1000 deposit that secures your place in line. Credit card or check makes no matter. They build what you want and then you go and pick it up with the rest of the money. For his first boat with them they told him if he got there and didn't like it for any reason they'd give him his money back and they'd keep the boat. No big deal. They knew they could sell it quickly due to the wait time.

These are purchases from $35,000 up to $75,000. That's how a company that is confident in their products AND their balance sheet operates.

 

[Bayou Boy]

With respect to beneficial ownership of work in process, it all depends on the language in the contract - and unless it specifically calls out that ownership is transferring during the build then the answer is no. There's a good reason for this:

As an example, Marc closed his doors owing his landlord around a half million dollars - so why should the customers who made a million dollars in progress payments be given preferential treatment over the landlord? If the landlord's building and the electric company's power were used to help build that partially completed camper, they would justifiably feel that they have a claim on their prorated portion of the assets of the business as well. Generally all unsecured creditors (yes, including customers who made deposits) have to be treated equally. Yes it sucks, but the law says it gets to suck for everyone equally and nobody gets special treatment.

Sorry man. But whether it is a residential contractor asking me to pay the lumberyard directly for materials or having something custom built with my money buying materials along the way there will be a contract in place that says that stuff is mine with no other ownership under any circumstances. If you default, I'm coming to get it with a sheriff's deputy and a court order.

There is absolutely a way to be first in line for your stuff on default but the contract has to be written correctly.

I've had friends build houses where they paid for materials directly but then the contractor defaults on something else and they end up with a lien on their house from the lumberyard. That's what they get for signing a contract without getting a good attorney to look it over.

People are crazy to be financing all of these hobbyists turned "businesses" with these ridiculous payment terms.

 

[luthj]

There are some low margin business where the capital requirements to have 5+ builds under way is too high. But the reality is, if you can't float the capital to build X units without using buyer deposits, then don't build X at a time!

 

[imjustdave]

Having never met the person I can't say fraud or bad business person. But having owned a company before I understand a lot of the issues. Costs are 2x planned and profit is less then expected. Employees end up making more

If he collected a million and spent it keeping things afloat trying to keep things moving forward expecting more $ soon then bad buisness.

If he collected a million and gave it to family burried it went on 3 month vacation that is a fraud.

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[Bayou Boy]

There are some low margin business where the capital requirements to have 5+ builds under way is too high. But the reality is, if you can't float the capital to build X units without using buyer deposits, then don't build X at a time!

Your second sentence is right on track. Low margin is an excuse. Grocers have margins in the low single digits. They aren't asking you to pay for that crown roast when you call it in for Christmas dinner. Heck, they don't even ask up front for large catering jobs and they are out 100% of the money on that.

Vehicles (trailers) should have exceptional margins. Just like boats, automobiles, campers, etc.

These guys are hobbyists trying to run businesses without the advice of good accountants. Look, a lot of business owners have been there, me included. The smart guys asked for help/advice early on and built up a few months worth of expenses in cash rather than trying to Ponzi scheme deposits to get the bills paid.

 

[utherjorge]

I think all this is saying that I shouldn't have gone into teaching, but building expo things instead

 

[Bayou Boy]

I think all this is saying that I shouldn't have gone into teaching, but building expo things instead

Maybe not. Apparently the margin sucks...

 

[pugslyyy]

Sorry man. But whether it is a residential contractor asking me to pay the lumberyard directly for materials or having something custom built with my money buying materials along the way there will be a contract in place that says that stuff is mine with no other ownership under any circumstances. If you default, I'm coming to get it with a sheriff's deputy and a court order.

There is absolutely a way to be first in line for your stuff on default but the contract has to be written correctly.

I've had friends build houses where they paid for materials directly but then the contractor defaults on something else and they end up with a lien on their house from the lumberyard. That's what they get for signing a contract without getting a good attorney to look it over.

People are crazy to be financing all of these hobbyists turned "businesses" with these ridiculous payment terms.

Nobody can force you to do something you don't want to do, but your approach means that you won't be able to buy a new vehicle from the "hobbyists" at EarthRoamer.

It also means you won't be able to buy a new vehicle from the "hobbyists" at Global Expedition Vehicles.

It also means you won't be able to buy a new vehicle from the "hobbyists" at EarthCruiser.

It also means you won't be able to buy a new vehicle from the "hobbyists" at Sportsmobile.

It also for sure means that I'm not going to be building you the complete frame-up custom Defender of your dreams from my successful-since-2006 "hobbyist" business British4x4.

Now you might be able to order a custom vehicle from the "hobbyists" at Winnebago with only $10-20k down and balance due at delivery, but it will still be a nonrefundable deposit.

I get that you don't like it, but this is tilting at windmills - it is an industry standard practice in the space.

The good news is that if you don't like the way these vehicles are sold nobody is forcing you to buy one! ('Murica!) Since it does seems like most of these "hobby" businesses are doing pretty well (get your order in soon for 2021 deliveries), I don't think their policies are holding them back.

 

[Bayou Boy]

Nobody can force you to do something you don't want to do, but your approach means that you won't be able to buy a new vehicle from the "hobbyists" at EarthRoamer.

It also means you won't be able to buy a new vehicle from the "hobbyists" at Global Expedition Vehicles.

It also means you won't be able to buy a new vehicle from the "hobbyists" at EarthCruiser.

It also means you won't be able to buy a new vehicle from the "hobbyists" at Sportsmobile.

It also for sure means that I'm not going to be building you the complete frame-up custom Defender of your dreams from my successful-since-2006 "hobbyist" business British4x4.

Now you might be able to order a custom vehicle from the "hobbyists" at Winnebago with only $10-20k down and balance due at delivery, but it will still be a nonrefundable deposit.

I get that you don't like it, but this is tilting at windmills - it is an industry standard practice in the space.

The good news is that if you don't like the way these vehicles are sold nobody is forcing you to buy one! ('Murica!) Since it does seems like most of these "hobby" businesses are doing pretty well (get your order in soon for 2021 deliveries), I don't think their policies are holding them back.

That’s fine. I’ll buy one a year or two old and let someone else deal with the wait and depreciation hit. I don’t buy brand new toys. There are plenty used ones to choose from. But I also think medium duty chassis “expo” campers make no sense in North America.


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[pugslyyy]

That’s fine. I’ll buy one a year or two old and let someone else deal with the wait and depreciation hit. I don’t buy brand new toys. There are plenty used ones to choose from. But I also think medium duty chassis “expo” campers make no sense in North America.


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Buying used is almost always the smart answer!

 

[Martyn]

I’m going to state something many of you may not particularly like, it’s a personal statement from me and it’s based on my 20 years of overlanding manufacturing experience. North American customers have not got their heads around the cost involved in building their products. For a manufacturer to make a fair profit, pay their employees well, and use use the best materials, the price of the overland products has to increase. If you do a survey of the cost of similar products made in Europe, Australia, or South Africa you will see that most of the products sell for a lot more than they do here in North America. (South Africa may be the exception but their exchange rate is currently out of line with its value).

Most of the Overland companies in North America are small shops, they are working on lower profit margins, they provide no health care coverage, they no not provide retirement benefits, and wages are low. Our overseas competition has higher overheads from taxes but the employees have health coverage, retirement and other benefits covered.

In the past two years US companies have been hit with tariffs on imported steel and aluminum, we have also seen matched price increases from domestically produced steel and aluminum, from what I have seen almost all of the US Overland companies have absorbed this cost and have not passed it on to customers.

In summary our industry is not In the best of health when profitability is low, wages are low, worker benefits are close to non existent, health care options are limited. Personally I would like the industry to be able to pay their employees well and offer them good benefits, I would also like to see companies make reasonable profits and be able to invest in new technologies and designs.

 

[Bayou Boy]

I’m going to state something many of you may not particularly like, it’s a personal statement from me and it’s based on my 20 years of overlanding manufacturing experience. North American customers have not got their heads around the cost involved in building their products. For a manufacturer to make a fair profit, pay their employees well, and use use the best materials, the price of the overland products has to increase. If you do a survey of the cost of similar products made in Europe, Australia, or South Africa you will see that most of the products sell for a lot more than they do here in North America. (South Africa may be the exception but their exchange rate is currently out of line with its value).

Most of the Overland companies in North America are small shops, they are working on lower profit margins, they provide no health care coverage, they no not provide retirement benefits, and wages are low. Our overseas competition has higher overheads from taxes but the employees have health coverage, retirement and other benefits covered.

In the past two years US companies have been hit with tariffs on imported steel and aluminum, we have also seen matched price increases from domestically produced steel and aluminum, from what I have seen almost all of the US Overland companies have absorbed this cost and have not passed it on to customers.

In summary our industry is not In the best of health when profitability is low, wages are low, worker benefits are close to non existent, health care options are limited. Personally I would like the industry to be able to pay their employees well and offer them good benefits, I would also like to see companies make reasonable profits and be able to invest in new technologies and designs.

Very well said. It takes a certain profit margin to make running a business work. A lot of these new kids on the block think that’s a lot lower than it actually is.


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[BritKLR]

I’m going to state something many of you may not particularly like, it’s a personal statement from me and it’s based on my 20 years of overlanding manufacturing experience. North American customers have not got their heads around the cost involved in building their products. For a manufacturer to make a fair profit, pay their employees well, and use use the best materials, the price of the overland products has to increase. If you do a survey of the cost of similar products made in Europe, Australia, or South Africa you will see that most of the products sell for a lot more than they do here in North America. (South Africa may be the exception but their exchange rate is currently out of line with its value).

Most of the Overland companies in North America are small shops, they are working on lower profit margins, they provide no health care coverage, they no not provide retirement benefits, and wages are low. Our overseas competition has higher overheads from taxes but the employees have health coverage, retirement and other benefits covered.

In the past two years US companies have been hit with tariffs on imported steel and aluminum, we have also seen matched price increases from domestically produced steel and aluminum, from what I have seen almost all of the US Overland companies have absorbed this cost and have not passed it on to customers.

In summary our industry is not In the best of health when profitability is low, wages are low, worker benefits are close to non existent, health care options are limited. Personally I would like the industry to be able to pay their employees well and offer them good benefits, I would also like to see companies make reasonable profits and be able to invest in new technologies and designs.

Thank you for this courageous and honest commentary on the reality of small business in the US. In our textile world it's additionally challenging due to influx of low priced/quality Chinese goods. A season, event, show doesn't go by without a few comments about the price of our US/Colorado made gear being too expensive and they can go to Amazon and get something similiar for 1/2 the price. We make an effort to educate them about the differences, but for those that "know the price of everything and value of nothing" It will not make a difference. Cheers.

 

[rruff]

Personally I would like the industry to be able to pay their employees well and offer them good benefits, I would also like to see companies make reasonable profits and be able to invest in new technologies and designs.

You have to pay the market rate for labor. You can't afford to pay more than competitors for the same kind of work.

When I was a youngster any guy who wanted to work could support a family on what he made. This didn't happen by accident, and it isn't hard to understand what has happened since. If you let "nature" take its course then lower-skilled labor rates sink to subsistence (or the minimum wage).

Company profitability is a different matter entirely. That comes down to competition and your target market, and how well you manage your business. If you are in the "boutique" overland market (where quality is appreciated, and your customers have $$$) then you should be able to do all the things you mentioned. But it's far from a free pass. You gotta be good and smart.

I worked with a guy who started a boutique sports equipment company. He did a lot of things right, but his finances were a total mess. He was on the verge of bankruptcy for years, building a ponzi scheme that would inevitably crash. He finally got smart and took on a partner who was a business expert, and it was smooth sailing after that. Night and day difference.

 

[Martyn]

You have to pay the market rate for labor. You can't afford to pay more than competitors for the same kind of work.

It’s Incredibly unfortunate that wages have not kept up with inflation and so many of our workers are living pay check to pay check just to survive. They have no retirement beyond Social Security, and that is close to default, they have no healthcare, and they have no savings. Our rational behind this is I can’t afford to pay more because that is what my competition is paying. I think what I’m saying is the system is broke and the burden has been placed on those who can afford it least, employees and small business. Many of you employed by multinationals, large corporations, municipalities, etc. would not dream of working for a lower salary, no 401k, no heath coverage for the family, and other benefits, conditions that employees of the US based Overland companies have to endure.

There as just fundamental issues that effect all business that do not, or cannot provide good wages and health benefits for their employees. I don’t have the answers all I seem to have are the questions.