TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

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4. Different levels of fail-safe redundancy


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In addition, there is the question of fail-safe redundancy. I suppose in a parallel system there would be redundancy too, because even if the main diesel engine fails, the smaller battery pack + electric motors might be able to drive the vehicle another 50 km or so, to the nearest service station. But that's a different level of redundancy than having two generators, where if one fails, the second generator will be able to carry the vehicle at least a few thousand kilometers further. This could matter, a lot. Because the kind of highly technical servicing that the TerraLiner may need, it might have to travel to the nearest "capital" city, i.e. a major city that has millions of people and a sophisticated automotive service infrastructure.

For instance, like the United States, Brazil has highways that seemingly go on forever in the middle of nowhere:







[video=youtube;-OBAEgU_iwg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OBAEgU_iwg [/video]


If the TerraLiner were driving along such a highway in Brazil and one of the generators fails, the prudent thing to do would be to turn around and drive back another 1000 km to Sao Paolo. In Sao Paolo it should then be possible to find the level of expertise necessary to fix the problem. With the-two generator "fail safe" redundancy provided by a serial hybrid drivetrain, driving to the nearest major capital city would be possible.

Whereas 50 km of "fail safe" driving distance would typically not give one such an option. Suppose the main diesel engine that fails is a MAN. To be sure MAN has a major presence in Brazil: MAN is actually the market leader. In fact, MAN is the largest truck manufacturer in South America -- see http://www.corporate.man.eu/en/pres...ader-for-the-twelfth-year-running-183744.html and http://www.corporate.man.eu/man/med.../14_MAN_Magazin_Bus_01_2015_International.pdf . But that won't help the TerraLiner much if it needs the electronics of its parallel-hybrid EURO 6-compliant diesel main engine analyzed, and the nearest diagnostic equipment is located 200 km away.


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5. The design freedom that serial hybrid provides


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As a designer, for me there's also the issue of design flexibility. I have gotten very attached to the idea of the TerraLiner's two generators mounted on the sides of the vehicle, thereby providing superb engine access, as well as freeing up the front and the back of the TerraLiner. Whereas if a big diesel engine were located up front, then as you and I know full well there's the problem of access because of the fully integrated design. In a fully integrated design one doesn't want the Cab to tilt forward. So access would have to occur via a hatch on top of the engine tunnel, a solution that you have already stated that you don't like. By the way, Rob Grey wrote a while back that in the Wothahellizat Mark 1, access to his ACCO engine was via both the front snub-nosed bonnet, and via a hatch over the engine tunnel!

Furthermore, a COE design also means that the Cab floor has to locate much higher, which is why most fully integrated Class A motorhomes are "pushers", with the engine located in the back instead of the front.

However, if the TerraLiner's big diesel engine were placed in the back, then I can't have a drop-down deck at the rear of the vehicle, as per the Wothahellizat Mark 1, along with a living room located at the back of the vehicle, instead of the front.

Yes, I know that you think it's "logisch" to have the living room up front, with the bedroom in the back. But in the design of the TerraLiner I want to follow the "spatial logic" of the Wothahellizat Mark 1, with the main bedroom actually located above the front cab area. Here is what becomes possible when the rear of the vehicle is the living room instead:










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Rob Gray liked the idea of a fold-down rear deck so much, that he also included one in the Wothahellizat Mark 2:







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Or you might recall the "Caravisio" by Knauss-Tabbert, which develops the same concept of a living room "spilling out" onto a rear porch:










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I've stated any number of times in the thread that a rear deck area is an important design element for me. And that's why I was so resistant to a "pusher" engine placement right form the start. That's also why a serial hybrid drivetrain was so "liberating", from a design point of view: I no longer have just two choices about where to put the main diesel engine, i.e. in the back or up front. Instead I can locate the diesel generators on the sides, as was suggested by either you or Haf-E (I can't remember which).

Furthermore, I really like the idea of wrap-around windows at the rear of the vehicle combined with slide-outs, as one finds in some fifth-wheel trailers. In the following images, just ignore the American-colonial, "grandma's kitchen", cluttered-kitsch design aesthetic of some (but not all) of these interiors. Focus instead on the sense of light and spaciousness that gets created when slide-outs that have windows are combined with a window on the far rear wall. Except that, in the TerraLiner, the rear-wall windows would be sliding doors, as per the Caravasio:










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I also really love the wrap-around windows in the following Airstream model, called the "Studio", a model that (as far as I know) is only available in Europe -- see http://www.airstreamitaly.it/en/airstream_684_studio.php :









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6. By all means, let's discuss Parallel Hybrid further!!...:sunny:


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So when I add everything up from a design point of view, and I think of the TerraLiner as a complete motorhome system, serial hybrid seems to make much more sense than parallel hybrid.

But with that said, I can fully appreciate the arguments for parallel hybrid drivetrain, and I don't want to dismiss it out of hand! There is no question that in long-haul applications, having an ICE drive the axles directly will be more fuel-efficient than having an ICE generate electricity first, which in turn drives electric motors. The primary argument in favor of a serial hybrid solution is regenerative braking in transportation contexts that are precisely not long haul; contexts where there is lots of stopping and starting. That's why Wrightspeed focused specifically on garbage trucks: because garbage trucks are constantly starting/stopping/starting/stopping. In that specific context, the massive regenerative braking capacity of the Wrightspeed serial-hybrid drivetrain more than makes up for any energy loss due to comparative diesel-generator inefficiency. The same is true of MAN's "Lion City" serial-hybrid transit buses.

So ever since reading the MAN interview with Franz Redwitz, it has been clear to me that on long-haul excursions a serial-hybrid TerraLiner would be less fuel-economical than a more conventional ICE-driven truck, or a parallel hybrid truck. And granted, the primary driving context of the TerraLiner will not be city or urban driving. Sure, even when highway driving there will be slowing down and accelerating in response to surrounding traffic, and so the regenerative braking capacity of a Wrightspeed-type drivetrain might still have some value. But I do expect a serial hybrid drivetrain to be less fuel-efficient on long-haul trips than a parallel hybrid.

However, everything needs to be weighed in the balance, and fuel economy is just one consideration. For me, truly "robust" fail-safe redundancy seems an equally important consideration, or perhaps even more important, given the global ambitions of the TerraLiner. And of course as a designer, the freedom to place the ICE generators in locations other than the front or the back of the vehicle is priceless, a genuine "design gift".

Still, the fuel-economy argument for parallel hybrid is a powerful one, and I posted that interview with Frank Redwitz for a reason. Parallel hybrid technology is worth discussing further in this thread, and I am not against it by any means. It would be great if those who are interested in parallel hybrid drivetrains as developed for long-haul trucking applications might post links, images, more information, etc. There is no question that we will be seeing lots of different kinds of parallel hybrid long-haul COE and CBE trucks driving around soon. And so it would be great to see images and discussion on the thread of concept and prototype versions of such innovative trucks.

But at the same time, once again, even if parallel hybrid makes more "engineering sense" than serial hybrid for long-haul vehicles in general, I am not convinced that parallel hybrid's advantages strongly outweigh its disadvantages for a large motorhome like the TerraLiner in particular. A motorhome is not just a long-haul truck or a long-haul bus. It's something more than that. And all the advantages of serial hybrid for a motorhome specifically, seem only too apparent.....:ylsmoke: ...And yet I could be wrong, or I could be missing additional critical factors well worth considering. So it would be interesting to hear what others think; how different participants would rate the importance of "fuel economy" in the total balance of design considerations.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[egn]

It seems to be that you think fuel economy is the main point in favor of a parallel-hybrid drive drain, and thinks like energy for air conditioning and energy recovery from regenerative braking are arguments against.

First of all, I don't think that your arguments against parallel-hybrids are valid ones. You can still have a generator and a large battery bank for air conditioning, and have considerable regenerative braking available with a parallel-hybrid. The battery size isn't bound in any way to the hybrid concept. You can have a serial hybrid with low battery capacity, in extreme it is a pure diesel-electric drive-train. Or you can have a parallel-hybrid with great amount of battery capacity.

The redundancy point is vaild, but redundancy wasn't indented in the context you seem to think when you posted your Brazil images. Here help is just one phone call, or just one hand waive away, and you get towed to the next service station. Redundancy is important if you are in the middle of nowhere, were no other people are available for help.

But, the main issue with your TerraLiner concept for me is still that I don't see how all of this will fit into the available space.

You post a countless number of images showing all kind of design elements from existing vehicles or concept cars, and you seem to have the illusion to be able to combine all this into one 20+ metric ton super-luxury off-road vehicle/trailer combination. This super-luxus multi-million dollar vehicle should then be "driven into and out of a farmer's field, without getting stuck" all over the world by an aged AARCWPOM, that already has serious health problems, otherwise they wouldn't need to have massive air-condition using "70 to 100 kWh per day" that is "mostly"-silent.

How many super-luxury multi-million dollar vehicles of this size are currently traveling the world?

How many owners of Class A luxury coaches have ever left USA with their coach?

Where in the world is the infrastructure to support a 18,75 m long super-luxury off-road RV?

Who pays so much money for a vehicle that only works when running a 200 kW loud diesel engine producing massive exhaust gases?

Who wants to be a target of other people around, that want to enjoy silence and clean air of nature, instead of being seriously disturbed recklessly by a Super-Rich-AARCWPOM in their over-designed super-luxury off-road vehicle, that never has and never will leave tarmac and because of size will stay on high-level primary roads, because of potential damage in and outside the vehicle?

If something is broken, who can service a vehicle of this complexity that uses mostly non-standard parts?

Sorry, if this all sounds very frustrating. I like the general idea of your project, but after so many posts I think you got lost.

You present a lot of arguments regarding so many single details, but the complete picture how this all fits together is missing. It looks to me that by putting more and more functionality and special features into the design, it is getting more and more a pipe dream, and of course very very expensive to build and to run.

It becomes one of the toys for the SRAARCWPOM, that will be used only for a few weeks a year in the home country, because this people also have other toys they wand to use like Super-Yachts, airplanes and full service housing at nice spots all over the world.

Why should such people use a vehicle where they have to think regularily about discharging black and grey water tanks, getting fresh water, filling up fuel tanks, maintenance and finding a save parking spot for over-night, after being exhausted by driving this over-sized vehicle combination on secondary roads?

Sorry, but here I recommend to use this silent days to lean back and make a serious reality check. :ylsmoke:

I wish you a Merry Christmas, and success in finishing your project next year,

Emil

 

[optimusprime]

Good grief Biotect is this still running!!??

Not been on here for a while now, but I now have 10 days off from the 'real world' i'll have to have a catch up!
Unless soneone wants to give me a brief recap as to where we are now!

Merry christmas to all who have persevered in this thread!

 

[biotect]

Hi egn,

Many thanks for that, but of course I now need to respond.....:ylsmoke:


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1. Shoe-horning Motorhome systems into the space available will be par for the course


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First off, fitting everything into the available space is always a challenge for all motorhomes, no matter how they are specified. It's always an exercise in "shoehorning", as customers demand more, and manufacturers of big Class A motorhome try to fit in more. But at this stage I see myself as still thinking in terms of "broad brushstrokes", basic design parameters, and what I'd like the overall end-user experience to feel like. That's why I though a great deal about Air-Conditioining, for instance, because Air-Conditioning just has to be a basic design parameter, and not a mere afterthought. I noticed that it's a topic that you did not respond to. But don't worry, I kind of did not expect you to respond because Air-Conditoining is not a very "German" sort of thing.....:sombrero:..


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2. Everyone above age 65 becomes more susceptible to Heat-stroke


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I absolutely did not describe my target market as having serious health problems. In fact, I stated the exact opposite. You seriously misinterpreted what I wrote here, egn. "Serious health problems" is your interpretation; it is not what I wrote.

Rather, what I wrote is a simple medical fact: that all elderly people, even those who are very active and very physically fit, have nervous systems that begin to deteriorate after age 65. This is a normal medical condition: it's called aging. It's standard, it's not serious, it happens to everyone, and it's just what it means to be over 65 years old. So elderly people in general, across the board, become more susceptible to heat-stroke or sun-stroke, even if they are still very active and physically fit, like Dr. Life described in post #1983 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1964731#post1964731 . Just read up on the medical literature, and you'll see that this is true. It's a very normal, very standard part of the aging process.

However, precisely because it's a standard part of the aging process, one has to design for it. And that means Air-Conditioining.

But beyond health and safety, there's also the issue of comfort. You can do without Air-Conditioning, and that's your choice. In Europe at various Buddhist meditation centers that I've attended during the summer, I have often encountered some aging hippie eco-freaks (usually Germans....:sombrero:.) who are militantly anti-Air-Conditioning. They think that Air-Conditioning is poisoning their bodies, much like GM crops, and they always try to convince the resident teacher to switch off the A/C, in order to suit their personal taste (and/or nuttiness). When other meditation students catch wind of this, there are always some very un-Buddhist moments when the vast majority of students, who want Air-Conditioning, because they want to be able to meditate in comfort without sweating buckets, will tell the hippie eco-freak to take a walk. But granted, there are also many perfectly "normal" Europeans who also dislike Air-Conditioning, for various reasons. So let's just say that there is a bit of a trans-Atlanatic divide between Europeans and North Americans when it comes to Air-Condioning, and a willingness to seize its possible benefits.

North Americans and Australians love Air-Conditioning, whereas many Europeans don't, because they think it's a luxury that they can do without. And Europeans often can do without Air-Conditioning, in most summers, because Europe's climate in general is so much more moderate than the climates one finds in North America or Australia. Many Europeans did not grow up with Air-Conditioinng in their residences, so they don't see why a motorhome should have it either; even if that motorhome is intended for travel around the world, to challenging climates where the Heat Index tops 110..... So here I think that American intuitions about the kind of comfort the TerraLiner's market will demand, are much more "on track" than European intuitions.

A globally capable motorhome needs Air-Conditioning, full stop. We'll probably have to just agree to disagree on this topic, but I did provide lots of pages and arguments about why I think Air-Conditioining is so important. I am not just stating a personal preference here, and the reasoning in those posts above Air-Conditioning is pretty sound, if you take the time to read them.


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3. The TerraLiner will be designed to create a market


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Your questions about market demand are good as skepticism. But to repeat a point that I already made in the course of discussion with Iain, one of the purposes of the TerraLiner will be precisely to create a market, a need, a demand, that does not currently exist. Designing for a market that already exists is a relatively easy kind of design. Whereas the biggest design challenge is creating a market by designing a product that people did not even know they wanted, until they see it for the first time. Think of the Sony Walkman: did anyone even know they would want such a thing, before Sony created it and made it available?

Now most owners of American Class A luxury coaches don't leave the United States precisely because their vehicles are not designed to do so. Standard American Class A motorhomes don't have the tires, for instance, nor the drivetrains and rigid chassis frames, that would allow them to glamp on farmer's fields, as opposed to rolling up on a paved pitch in an RV park. But what if instead they were offered a product that resembles the large, comfortable Class A motorhomes that they have long been familiar with; but a product that could in fact travel the world, and not just the United States?

Here I should also emphasize: I never for even one moment supposed that a worldwide RV-suppoert infrastructure exists comparable to the North-American RV infrastructure that makes large Class A motorhomes possible in the United States and Canada!! If I had ever supposed such a thing, I would be an idiot, and not once did I suppose such a thing. Quite the opposite: I have been deliberately designing on the assumption that such an infrastructure does not exist, and that the TerraLiner will need to be designed for maximal water, power, and sewage autonomy so that it can seek out viable alternatives, like glamping farmer's fields where no "hook ups" and no "shore power" will be available. Stating that no global, worldwide infrastructure exists to support American Class-A motorhomes, comparable to the infrastructure that exists in the United States, is simply sating the obvious. Everybody knows it, it's not big news, and this thread began with this simply taken for grated as a background assumption.


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4. The TerraLiner is deliberately designed for silent glamping


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I think you completely missed the point behind the "mostly silent" camping concept.

The whole point to having a large battery pack + a big generator that both drives the vehicle, and that recharges the battery bank, is that it won't have to be big, loud, and polluting all that often. Some Newell coach owners run their main vehicle engines round-the-clock instead of their much quieter 20 KW diesels, even through this practice is strongly discouraged by Newell itself -- see http://www.newellcoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/NewellNews_Vol34Iss3.pdf . So what I am trying to do is design a TerraLiner that completely avoids running a generator or the main vehicle engine on most days. I am trying to design a vehicle where for most of the time when glamping -- i.e. for more than 95 % of the time -- all noisy ICE generators will be switched off.

In the scenario that I have been sketching, where a large, fast-charging battery bank combines with a big generator, even in the very worst case scenario the engine will have to run for only two hours in 3 days. 2 hours divided by 72 hours is less than 3 % of the time. And that's the worst-case scenario. Where there might be ample solar and wind-power available, and where the power draw of the Air-Conditionong might be something more moderate, like 30 KW per day, it's possible that the diesel-generator would need to recharge the battery bank only once every few weeks.

I am surprised that you seem to have completely misunderstood my central design objective here, because camping in silence seems to be a major goal for you, too.


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5. The TerraLiner is designed for maximum stealth and unobtrusiveness


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You also seem to misunderstand other major design objectives of the TerraLiner, for instance, compete sewage autonomy and complete power autonomy. If anything, the TerraLiner will be much less noticeable than a typical motorhome, because it won't leave behind illegally discharged blackwater; it won't have to hook up to shore-power; when it first arrives at a farm, it could drive onto a field in all-electric "stealth" mode, with the generators switched off, so it will be much quieter than any of the farmer's own vehicles; and once again, it will be built strong enough, as strong as a MAN-KAT or an SX-44, such that it won't have to stick to high-level primary roads. Sure, the TerraLiner will be big, so it won't be able to take narrow unpaved trails and mud-tracks. But the TerraLiner will be able to travel anywhere that Latin American tour buses can travel, and that's quite a lot of roads to cover, as the Latin American videos that I have been posting amply demonstrate.

Remember, 12 m is absolutely not big in the world of buses, nor is it big in the world of American Class-A motorhomes, which at 45 feet can be as long as 13.72 m, as per Newell coaches.

Furthermore, using the Australian Paradise Motorhomes with side drop-down decks as a major precedent, when those decks are folded up, the TerraLiner will look far more "utilitarian" and truck-like than a Newell. The TerraLiner will have no visible exterior windows on its camper body when the side decks are folded up. And so if anything, the TerraLiner's camper body will look just like the cargo box at the back of a delivery truck. The TerraLiner will not look like a rich person's motorhome at all, and will not seem like an attractive target for theft. This may seem difficult to understand, but after seeing that terrific Paradise Motorhomes Australian design that Joe Maninga posted, one of my central design goals has been precisely to design the TerraLiner to be as "stealthy", silent, and unobtrusive as possible, despite its comparatively large size, when compared to most expedition motorhomes.

The only thing that might render the TerraLiner a bit more attractive as a target will be the front, slightly futuristic cab area. There, as you know I would like to play around with various ways to achieve lots of "panoramic" glazing, but glazing that is segmented into perfectly flat, easily replaceable segments. Here the design goal will be to make the front cab area look somewhat like a truck, but a slightly "futuristic" truck, a truck that has more panoramic glazing than most. But still a truck nonetheless, so that passers-by will simply assume that it's a recent, "advanced truck design", and nothing more.


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6. A very, very rough Photoshopped "massing sketch" of the TerraLiner


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Just to give you a very general idea of what all of this might look like, here is a very, very rough massing sketch, in which I simply threw together various Photoshop experiments that I've produced over the last two years.

To represent the TerraLiner, I simply took a Rosenbauer Panther 6x6, increased its height to 4 m, lengthened it a bit (the original length was 11.77 m), got rid of the water turret, angled the windshield forward, brought the tandem axle forward to create a Chinese Six arrangement, increased the tandem inter-axle distance to 2.0 m for better trench-crossing capability, and slapped a large rectangular drop-down deck on the side in dark blue, to emphasize just how utilitarian it will look. No windows, nothing, and the same would be true or the TOAD trailer:


















Here is the original Panther 6x6 product brochure:







I could have also done a similar quick-sketch using the Kamaz Typhoon as a basis, but I don't like the Typhoon's overall "militaresque", angular styling nearly as much as I like the Panther. Or rather, I don't like the Typhoon's angular styling at all; whereas I love the styling of the Panther:
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The second image shows a "stretched" version of the Typhoon with a bigger windshield, along with the actual size of a Jenoptik 120 KW generator stored in a slide-locker. Yes, it really is this small, and it would fit in the space available quite comfortably.

Note that the tires on the Panther 6x6 would be much too big for the TerraLiner: they are a special kind of tire that Michelin makes for "emergency, crash, and rescue vehicles", intended for soft soil or sand in the XS series, and called 24R21, 24R20.5, etc. -- see http://www.hackneys.com/mitsu/docs/michelin-xzl-pages.pdf , https://www.vrakking-tires.com/stock/21-inch/53-24r21-michelin-xzl-new.html , https://www.heuver.com/item/2607/24r21-michelin-xzl-176g-e2-tl , or see page 62 at http://tiregroup.com/Catalogs/PDF Catalogs/Michelin.pdf . They are about 1.374 - 1.388 m wide, which is quite a bit wider than Michelin's XZL 14.00R20s (1.258 m in diameter) or 16.00R20s (1.343 m in diameter), i.e. the kinds of tires that typically get put on large expedition motorhomes. But these big sand tires look kind of "fun" on this rough sketch, so I didn't bother changing them to the smaller XZLs.


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7. Covered parking height limits and the TerraLiner's TOAD


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For the TOAD trailer, I just grabbed a side-elevation of the Oskosh M1076 -- see http://oshkoshdefense.com/variants/m1076-trailer/ and http://oshkoshdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/17391_PLS-Trailer_LowRes_4.30.2015.pdf . It's a very rugged, true "off-road" trailer, so it seemed like the appropriate accompaniment. In this case the tires are actually smaller than XZLs: they are either Michelin 395 85R20 XML (1.17 m in diameter ), or they are Michelin 15.5/80 R20 Pilote XL (also 1.17 m in diameter) -- see http://www.militaryoffroadtires.net/product-p/t-39585r20xml.htm and http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=292488258 . So in a more developed drawing, the TerraLiner's tires would be smaller, and the TOAD garage's tires would be bigger.

Inside the trailer I was just playing around with the possible height available for the TOAD, in this case an Earthroamer XV-JP, a vehicle that I admire, very much. I shortened the XV-JPs height so that it might be parked in a garage that has a 2.1 m ceiling limit. Remember, my basic design move is to radically separate "sojourning" from "exploring". And for exploring specifically, I would want a TOAD that can enter big cities and park easily there. That's another advantage of making such a strong conceptual distinction between the vehicle that does the exploring, versus the vehicle that does the sojourning: one can have a TOAD that's parkable in a covered parking lot.

Being able to park in covered lots in the centers of Second-and Third-World cities would be very desirable, for the simple reason that covered parking lots tend to be better protected, more secure, will have video surveillance, will be better staffed, and so on. Assuming that most of the world is following Europe’s lead, and is gradually introducing newer parking lots that have 2.10 ceiling clearances, 2.09 m seems a reasonable target to shoot for. Lower might be possible, but quite honestly, designing a TOAD that has a camperette included in the back and yet is only 1.90 m high would be a real challenge. One would lose so much functionality in the camperette, that there would be no point to including one to begin with.

Even though the Earthroamer XV-JP is most definitely one of the most low-slung SUV-camperettte designs on the market, it was still 2.29 m tall before I "chopped" it down, to make it parkable. No doubt this was not the Earthroamer XV-JP’s original mission profile. Earthroamer probably never imagined XV-JP as a vehicle that should be “safe-parkable in the center of a big Latin American city.” They probably imagined the XV-JP as a vehicle that would spend all of its time outdoors, and all of its time driving and camping well away from major cities. Otherwise the height of the XV-JP is a bit inexplicable, because that height seems likely to make things difficult when trying to park safely in the center of pretty much any small-to-medium-sized city….. :ylsmoke: ... BuBut having studied the XV-JP at great length, I think it would still prove very usable as a camperette when reduced to just 2.09 m high, instead of 2.29 m. This. 2.10 m "parkable target" will have implications when, much later in the thread, we consider other possible vehicles to serve as the TerraLiner's TOAD -- vehicles like the G-wagen, the Toyota Landcruiser, or the Landrover Discovery.

In my own experience, European covered parking lots usually have 1.90 m ceiling clearances, but in almost all European cities one will be able to find at least one or two parking lots that allow vehicles up to 2.10 high – see http://www.eurotestmobility.eu/news/99-2/carparks/ and http://www.eurotestmobility.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Package-Car-Parks1.pdf . In Paris, for instance, higher-ceiling parking garages do exist, garages that can accommodate trucks and campers 2.2 m high to 3.6 m: about nine (9) of them – see http://www.parkingsdeparis.com/EN/truck-reservation-list.php . But there are nineteen (19) garages that can accommodate vehicles up to 2.10 m high – see http://www.parkingsdeparis.com/EN/utility-reservation-list.php . And there are no less than eighty-one (81) covered parking garages in Paris that can accommodate vehicles under 1.90 m high – see http://www.parkingsdeparis.com/EN/utility-reservation-list.php . 1.90 would of course be an ideal height, because that would give one maximum parking flexibility. But as a camperette the TOAD would become nearly useless.

In American terms, 1.9 m is 6 foot 3 inches, while 2.1 m is 6 foot 10 ½ inches. I’ve read that 7 feet is a very typical American covered parking-lot height. But 2.10 m and/or 1.90 m would be the measurements to aim for, because the rest of the world outside the United States uses metric. So when engineers design a new parking lot in Brazil, for instance, they will think “2.10 m” or “1.90 m”, and not “7 feet”.

Finally, the motorbike picture end-on is a BMW 1200 GS Adventure, carrying the widest set of panniers that I could find.


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It has to be emphasized that this is just a very, very rough sketch, and should not be imagined strongly reflecting the final TerraLiner at all. I kept it deliberately rough, because I know how quickly such things begin to circulate on the Internet. I figured that if it merely looks like a quickly photoshopped transformation of a Panther 6x6 towing an equally rough-and-ready transformation of an M1076, nobody will have much incentive to circulate the thing. But this will, nonetheless, still provide a reasonably rough-and-ready "visual summary" of where things are now heading, and just how utilitarian I intend the TerraLiner to look, when underway. But once it stops and the side-decks fold down, it will completely transform into something totally different, something truly magical and stunning.


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8. Panoramic Motorhoming


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Here I wanted to add the parenthetical remark that one of the reasons I like the Rosenbauer Panther so much and posted so many images of it at the beginning of the thread, is because much like the Burstner Panoramio, the Panther has such a terrific stretch of front windshield soaring overhead:









Yes, yes, I know perfectly well that the Panther is unusually wide, about 3.0 m, and that it's not designed to drive on normal roads -- see http://rosenbauer.t3.world-direct.a...d/Datasheet_Panther_6x6_CA5_NorfolkIsland.pdf . But that stretch of glass in front sure is beautiful. For the Bustner Panoramio, see posts #100 and #101 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet?p=1669493#post1669493 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet?p=1669494#post1669494 .

So too, because the Panther is a pusher, with a huge Marine Diesel located in the rear, Rosenbauer was able to create very low-rise, quick-exit access to the cab, and yet maintain an impressive 30-degree approach angle:







So the Panther has no long vertical exterior stairway to climb, as per the opening of this video of a Mercedes concept truck, in which the driver has to climb no less than 5 steps in order to reach his flat-floor "COE" cab:






With a serial hybrid solution in which the diesel generators are mounted on the sides, one could have exactly the Panther's low-slung, high-road-visibiliy, easy-access cab in front, and an expansive living room in back with drop-down deck. And because the cab could be so low slung in front of the first axle, the master bedroom above the cab would have ample headroom, albeit headroom that would need to be supplemented by a pop-up. Lots of things become possible once the engine is out of the way. Once the drivetrain becomes two diesel generators instead, stored in the side-lockers between the second and third axles, in a Chinese Six configuration as shown above, a veritable smorgasbord of design possibilities open up.

The Panther's forward-sliding doors are pretty nifty in a "bat-mobile" kind of way, too......:sombrero:


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8. "There are no truly global vehicles...."


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As for standard parts, I think all motorhomes suffer the problem of non-standard parts above the level of the motor and drivetrain. Even a production motorhome like a Hymer is not going to be built in sufficient numbers that replacing its camper box parts would be an easy matter anywhere except at Hymer headquarters in Germany.

The only part of any motorhome that is standard enough to be serviced locally at many places worldwide might be the engine, and perhaps other elements like the steering, the transmission, the differentials, etc. But a a reality check is in order here, too. Recall that Jago Pickering, who owns a Tatra-based motorhome, spoke eloquently about exactly this issue in a brief interview:

Main criteria for this project?

To design the internal layout with as few compromises as possible, to allow us to have an effective space for 5 comfortably. Never possible without some compromise and as we have found out no matter how big the truck you always end up short of space! I am no mechanic, so we also wanted a mechanically sound and reliable vehicle with international parts availability that wasn't too complex or modern. We have since found out there are no truly global vehicles (even Mercedes!) and it's difficult to get the mix of older (less complex electronics) and reliable right. Our Tatra is old enough to be simple and after spending a couple of days at Tatra on basic mechanic courses I know most of the drive train is international enough for parts. The thorough overhaul by IPEX also gives reassurance that whilst this is old enough to be simple (just upgraded to make Euro III for this years London LEZ) it should be sound mechanically.

See post #236 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1588983#post1588983 for the full interview; it is no longer available on-line elsewhere.

"There are no truly global vehicles (even Mercedes)...." What exactly did Jago Pickering mean by that?

He meant that no truck manufacturer -- quite literally none -- has a completely global presence. This is a bit hard to believe, because there certainly do exist car manufacturers that sell and service cars in just about every country; for instance, Mercedes. But the world of big, heavy-duty trucks is different, and the global market is still somewhat "balkanized", if not at the level of countries, then at least at the level of continents. For instance, Gaz, Kamaz, and Uaz completely dominate the Russian market, and low-cost local producers completely dominate China, with very little significant European presence in either country. For a superb summary of the global truck market, and just how much local manufacturers completely dominate in big countries like China, India, and Russia, see the exhaustive report at https://www.kpmg.com/Ca/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublications/Documents/Auto_Truck_Study_v7.pdf or https://www.kpmg.com/Global/en/Issu...truck-industry/Documents/emerging-markets.pdf .

For instance, here is an interesting question to ask: What's the name of the biggest manufacturer of heavy commercial trucks worldwide, in terms of number of units sold? Mercedes? Wrong; guess again. The right answer is Dongfeng, a company that most Europeans and North Americans have probably never heard of -- see page 9 of the report. MAN ranks only 9th worldwide, and above MAN, there are only two larger European truck manufacturers, Mercedes and Volvo.

Although both Daimler (Mercedes) and MAN have a significant presence in Europe and Latin America, and both Volvo and Daimler have a significant presence in North America (Daimler via its ownership of FreightLiner), Volvo's presence in Latin America is comparatively weak. Further afield, only MAN and Volvo have much presence in eastern Europe and Russia, where again Gaz, Kamaz, and Uaz absolutely dominate. In China no European or North American manufacturers have much of a presence at all; and in India it's the same:






Consider MAN specifically, because it's the platform that seems most favored by makers of the larger expedition motorhomes, manufacturers like Actionmobil, UniCat, and Armadillo in China. Even in Europe MAN is not the biggest player in the truck and bus market; that honor, predictably enough, goes to Mercedes. In Europe MAN has only 16.3 % of the market share for trucks, DAF also has 16.3 %, and Mercedes has 24.1 % -- see http://www.statista.com/statistics/265008/market-share-of-truck-manufacturers-in-europe/ and http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/EU_pocketbook_2014.pdf :







But in the United States and China, MAN seems to have no presence whatsoever:





China one might expect, but the United States?


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9. MAN has virtually no presence in North America


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In the United States, American manufactures like Freightliner, Navistar International, Peterbilt, Mack, and Kenworth completely dominate the market for heavy trucks, albeit Freightliner is now owned by Mercedes. The only genuinely "foreign" participant in the American market is Volvo, where it sells CBE trucks that are designed and built in the United States -- see http://www.volvotrucks.com/trucks/na/en-us/Pages/Volvo Trucks USA.aspx and http://www.volvotrucks.com/TRUCKS/N...IES_LOCATIONS/Pages/facilities_locations.aspx .

There is an excellent PDF describing the character of the North American heavy truck market at http://cta.ornl.gov/vtmarketreport/pdf/chapter3_heavy_trucks.pdf , and it merely states what everyone already knows: very few large trucks get imported to the United States; most heavy trucks used in the United States and Canada are built by American manufacturers; many of the major American truck manufactures prefer to install their own diesel engines; and when they do not, the preferred engine of choice is a Cummins:








Which is no doubt why Newell motorhomes are equipped with Cummins engines.


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