Viking Off-Road Recovery Hitch photos

[Martyn]

My rant.

I find the discussion on price interesting. I think it's been clearly laid out in the discussion what the cost involved in producing small run CNC products are, and the sale price seems to be reasonable.

To state that the product is too expensive and to then list less expensive items purely based on price is distasteful. The discussion had to be lead to a more informational based discussion based on the merits of the product. This should have been the starting point of the discussion.

Pricing seems to be an issue we are quickly willing to quickly point a finger at, and the finger pointing usually is devoid of any analysis of the situation.

For this product, in addition to the raw materials, CNC time, programming time, R&D time, Soildworks time, you need to add in; office and warehouse space, admin, utilities, workers comp, product liability insurance, and a profit margin, then you get a feel for the cost benefit analysis.

Broadly I'd state that criticism on price is leveled by people who don’t created and produced anything. Have no experience in manufacturing, and the costs involved in getting a product to market.

I would challenge you to do some analysis on your own work and see if the end product if fairly priced. What's involved in running an auto repair business, and does it justify the $90.00 per hour shop time. How about you IT guys, does the final cost of your software reflect a reasonable profit, or the Tradesmen amongst us is the final bill given to the consumer fair when you take everything into account?

Finally I'd like you to think about going into your local hardware store to buy a 1/4" bolt. When you pay 6c for it think about the fact I'm buying the same thing for 2c, and become outraged because the hardware store is making in excess of 200% profit on your purchase.

 

[Life_in_4Lo]

Sometimes I buy things for no other reason than knowing that a company gives back to a sport/activity/community as much as it benefits from it.

Then feel good about buying from Marlin Crawler. He's made huge and lasting contributions to the offroad community for decades.

 

[ujoint]

Broadly I'd state that criticism on price is leveled by people who don’t create and produced anything. Have no experience in manufacturing, and the costs involved in getting a product to market.

Amen.

 

[alexrex20]

My rant.

I find the discussion on price interesting. I think it's been clearly laid out in the discussion what the cost involved in producing small run CNC products are, and the sale price seems to be reasonable.

To state that the product is too expensive and to then list less expensive items purely based on price is distasteful. The discussion had to be lead to a more informational based discussion based on the merits of the product. This should have been the starting point of the discussion.

Pricing seems to be an issue we are quickly willing to quickly point a finger at, and the finger pointing usually is devoid of any analysis of the situation.

For this product, in addition to the raw materials, CNC time, programming time, R&D time, Soildworks time, you need to add in; office and warehouse space, admin, utilities, workers comp, product liability insurance, and a profit margin, then you get a feel for the cost benefit analysis.

Broadly I'd state that criticism on price is leveled by people who don’t created and produced anything. Have no experience in manufacturing, and the costs involved in getting a product to market.

I would challenge you to do some analysis on your own work and see if the end product if fairly priced. What's involved in running an auto repair business, and does it justify the $90.00 per hour shop time. How about you IT guys, does the final cost of your software reflect a reasonable profit, or the Tradesmen amongst us is the final bill given to the consumer fair when you take everything into account?

Finally I'd like you to think about going into your local hardware store to buy a 1/4" bolt. When you pay 6c for it think about the fact I'm buying the same thing for 2c, and become outraged because the hardware store is making in excess of 200% profit on your purchase.

so did you place your order for the $110 Viking receiver mount shackle?

the point is not that the product is not worth the money, but that there is a comparable or better product available for a fraction of the cost. let them sell their's for $110, and we will still buy the other product for $40.

you're comparing a 6c bolt to a 2c bolt. if i paid 6c for the EXACT bolt that you paid 2c, then yes, i'd be annoyed - especially if i had to buy 500 of them. but if you're getting a better product for your 6c versus the product i received at 2c, then i am content with my inferior product.

nobody is going to pay 300% extra for a product with no proven advantage over the competition. effectively, it is the same product and does not deserve the price differential.

 

[Martyn]

you're comparing a 6c bolt to a 2c bolt. if i paid 6c for the EXACT bolt that you paid 2c, then yes, i'd be annoyed - especially if i had to buy 500 of them. but if you're getting a better product for your 6c versus the product i received at 2c, then i am content with my inferior product.

nobody is going to pay 300% extra for a product with no proven advantage over the competition. effectively, it is the same product and does not deserve the price differential.

Be annoyed-- or rather realize that the Hardware store has high overheads and needs to make 200%+ to stay in business.

 

[alexrex20]

again, you're missing a crucial criterion: there are several alternatives available for ~30% the cost.

with your bolt scenario, there is no other option available to the consumer market; unless they have a business account with said hardware store.

 

[alexrex20]

regardless, we have all spent absurd amounts of money on items many would consider a waste, simply because there were other options available at fractions the cost. we're all guilty of doing this. i've done it, because i wanted a name brand, or a pretty item, or i just wanted the best.

this is a great product with a great company behind them, and i'm sure they'll be able to sell their intended quantities. it's just not for me.

i keep a smittybilt unit in my recovery bag, but it admittedly is only ever used on other vehicles, which are not so well-equipped.

for my use, i can not justify the extra cost, no matter how much i would love to have that Viking piece in my bag.

 

[teotwaki]

My rant.

I find the discussion on price interesting. I think it's been clearly laid out in the discussion what the cost involved in producing small run CNC products are, and the sale price seems to be reasonable.

To state that the product is too expensive and to then list less expensive items purely based on price is distasteful. The discussion had to be lead to a more informational based discussion based on the merits of the product. This should have been the starting point of the discussion.

Pricing seems to be an issue we are quickly willing to quickly point a finger at, and the finger pointing usually is devoid of any analysis of the situation.

For this product, in addition to the raw materials, CNC time, programming time, R&D time, Soildworks time, you need to add in; office and warehouse space, admin, utilities, workers comp, product liability insurance, and a profit margin, then you get a feel for the cost benefit analysis.

Broadly I'd state that criticism on price is leveled by people who don’t created and produced anything. Have no experience in manufacturing, and the costs involved in getting a product to market.

I would challenge you to do some analysis on your own work and see if the end product if fairly priced. What's involved in running an auto repair business, and does it justify the $90.00 per hour shop time. How about you IT guys, does the final cost of your software reflect a reasonable profit, or the Tradesmen amongst us is the final bill given to the consumer fair when you take everything into account?

Finally I'd like you to think about going into your local hardware store to buy a 1/4" bolt. When you pay 6c for it think about the fact I'm buying the same thing for 2c, and become outraged because the hardware store is making in excess of 200% profit on your purchase.

When I read the above I see a number of things but I'll comment on a smaller number.

I don't think anyone said that the Viking product was "unfairly" priced. It has been tagged as too expensive compared to other items that offer all of the functionality and quality for less money, but not the high-quality finish. If a manufacturer expects to sell something then they should do their homework and price it appropriately for the intended market. I don't think that market includes the average Portal member, many of whom already have a perfectly good hitch shackle adapter.

If this is to be a discussion with analysis then we are compelled to list similar but lower priced items as part of the process. I don't know of another shackle priced any higher! Otherwise it seems we can only post in this thread if we agree that the item is worth $110 to us?

All of us can point to items that we opted to buy that were at the high end of pricing and vice-versa and lay out the reasons why. The Viking shackle hasn't made the cut for most of us.

What we are seeing here is a cross section of the portal and the majority are disinclined to buy the product.

I posted some honest questions about the nickle finish versus the others but I had hoped that someone like you might offer some answers instead of this type of lecture .

 

[Martyn]

When I read the above I see a number of things but I'll comment on a smaller number.

I don't think anyone said that the Viking product was "unfairly" priced. It has been tagged as too expensive compared to other items that offer all of the functionality and quality for less money, but not the high-quality finish. If a manufacturer expects to sell something then they should do their homework and price it appropriately for the intended market. I don't think that market includes the average Portal member, many of whom already have a perfectly good hitch shackle adapter.

If this is to be a discussion with analysis then we are compelled to list similar but lower priced items as part of the process. I don't know of another shackle priced any higher! Otherwise it seems we can only post in this thread if we agree that the item is worth $110 to us?

All of us can point to items that we opted to buy that were at the high end of pricing and vice-versa and lay out the reasons why. The Viking shackle hasn't made the cut for most of us.

What we are seeing here is a cross section of the portal and the majority are disinclined to buy the product.

I posted some honest questions about the nickle finish versus the others but I had hoped that someone like you might offer some answers instead of this type of lecture .

Jim

I don't have answers for you on the nickel finish.

I'm all for intelligent comparison of products, and in the latter part of the thread that discussion did take place, all be it after some prompting.

In my mind, on this forum, we should discuss the pros and cons of a product. If we personally find it outside of our budget or we believe another product is better value then we won't buy it.

Why the "lecture"? There is very little understanding of the cost of goods, with most of the manufacturing now offshore there are very few people who understand the work that goes into manufacturing the products they use. Thirty years ago that would not have been the case.

We have also grown accustom to inferior cheap products that have devalued the superior products on the market. In many cases we don't see any difference between the two products, and our critical thinking skills haven't taken us beyond the price point.

So my argument is that to compare products based just on price is both distasteful and shows a lack of critical thinking skills. To discuss products based on design, materials, and pros and cons shows thought on the part of the author and the use of critical thinking skills.

 

[Life_in_4Lo]

Martyn,
Your latest posts makes me think you have not read through this thread as I, and others, have stated answers to all your questions and arguments.

Distasteful lack of critical thinking

That best describes how I feel about the Viking unit.
I'll list some
-material choice -not as strong as others costing 200% less
-CNC machining- absolutely no use or advantage to using this process. It is purely a cosmetic choice. It utilizes none of the advantages of CNC and all the drawbacks (slightly higher manufacturing costs).

One can argue also that the material choice was because they wanted to CNC it. So it's completely a cosmetic choice.

The argument of "high end" products does not apply to this product. It is a misplaced argument. It does disservice to actual high end products with clear advantages or unique design ideas.
Viking's own Safety Thimble is probably a good example to use: CNC used for actual precision machining for a unique product.

Critical thinking is why high end products are "high end". The design and execution justify the price.
Going back to the bolt analogy-- You buy a US made Grade8 bolt because it's truly rated, not some Chinese Grade8 that snaps the head off.
So what if the Chinese bolt is 2x more expensive and marketed in exclusive shops only? Does the high end argument work here?

As I've said many times, if you see this shackle reciever as a chi-chi product and nothing more, than buy it. More power to Viking. But it's not any better by any means, than anything in the $25-$40 range. Theoretical limits, the cheaper units are stronger.
If it's not even "bling" as Scott Brady says, then I see even less point in it.
But it's not unsafe, it's functional and maybe it's one of those things someone buys along with a bunch of other Viking stuff.

Go back to the beginning of this thread and look at the claims of superiority of this unit. A little critical thinking in this thread, I think, saved some people a lot of money.



Jim,
As for the zinc finish, it's common rust/corrosion protection. You see it on bolts, 4x4 control arms (Slee's for example) and other outdoor metal parts. It's a common gold color finish.
I don't know for sure Marlin's is zinc but that is what I assume it is.

Nickel is pretty. I have nickel finish lights in my home. don't know anything about it.

 

[Martyn]

again, you're missing a crucial criterion: there are several alternatives available for ~30% the cost.

with your bolt scenario, there is no other option available to the consumer market; unless they have a business account with said hardware store.

The bolt scenario is interesting because it illustrates that price by itself is not a good criteria for product selection. The 6c bolt has no competition on the market so we are willing to buy it even though the mark up by the seller is huge.

If however there was a similar bolt for sale for 8c that had three times the tensile strength you could use critical thinking skills to work out it's value to you.

If you didn't use your critical thinking skills you'd buy the 6c bolt based on cost.

 

[Martyn]

Martyn,
Your latest posts makes me think you have not read through this thread as I, and others, have stated answers to all your questions and arguments.

I read through the thread from start to finish a few times, I'm not prone to jumping into something with half the knowledge or skill that I need.

My comments were not specifically directed at anyone in particular, and yes some people has some interesting and well thought out points of view. Others didn't like the pricing and wanted something less expensive.

My point was and is to go beyond the sticker shock and find out what you’re buying.

Earlier in the thread you directed someone to the Warn shackle bracket in the context of price alone. It wasn't until Scott Brady encourage some well thought out debate that BIGdaddy did an analysis of different products.

From that point on we started to see some meaningful dialogue using critical thinking.

 

[teotwaki]

I read through the thread from start to finish a few times, I'm not prone to jumping into something with half the knowledge or skill that I need.

My comments were not specifically directed at anyone in particular, and yes some people has some interesting and well thought out points of view. Others didn't like the pricing and wanted something less expensive.

My point was and is to go beyond the sticker shock and find out what you’re buying.

Earlier in the thread you directed someone to the Warn shackle bracket in the context of price alone. It wasn't until Scott Brady encourage some well thought out debate that BIGdaddy did an analysis of different products.

From that point on we started to see some meaningful dialogue using critical thinking.

I'd also like to say that I truly do appreciate the prodding towards critical thinking :bike_rider:

 

[Life_in_4Lo]

My point was and is to go beyond the sticker shock and find out what you’re buying.

If you do, the Viking falls apart in comparison.

Earlier in the thread you directed someone to the Warn shackle bracket in the context of price alone. It wasn't until Scott Brady encourage some well thought out debate that BIGdaddy did an analysis of different products.

I'm baffled that a shackle bracket requires more than that. Scott posted some incorrect, misleading information on the Viking and then the argument it is "high end". That, I feel, is pretty silly.

From that point on we started to see some meaningful dialogue using critical thinking.

What do you feel is the outcome? I guess not good because of your rant post yesterday.

 

[Martyn]

If you do, the Viking falls apart in comparison.



I'm baffled that a shackle bracket requires more than that. Scott posted some incorrect, misleading information on the Viking and then the argument it is "high end". That, I feel, is pretty silly.



What do you feel is the outcome? I guess not good because of your rant post yesterday.

The shackle post could have contained, not only the price, but a comparison of the two items, the pros and cons, and your thoughts on why the pricing would be so varied. To me it's that type of information that people expect from the Portal, good solid well thought out facts.

I'm not so concerned about the "outcome" of the thread more the process. If people do their analysis of a product and the overall impression is positive or negative so be it.

If the discussion is, this product is $$$$$ and this product is $, with no explanation or though behind it, all we have is peoples preferences without any underlying reasoning.

The comment Scott made was: "So, make a valid argument to the contrary. We are big kids, and nothing wrong with a healthy discussion.The world is full of expensive items." It was only after this that healthy discussion began. It could have begun earlier with no prompting.