New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[EricTyrrell]

So what if the "space between" them are huge? You are one of the people who wants it to be a carbon copy of wrangler to the extent you want solid front frigging axles.

You present three options, none of which are practical. The people that think the Defender is a joke don't want a JL or a classic LR (they might already have one). They want a modern Defender, not the Playskool DC100. For those who have a hard time imagining this, the closest I can suggest is to imagine a JL Wrangler/Gladiator with higher towing/payload, stronger components, larger cargo capacity, and Defender design (of course).

 

[mpinco]

Look no further than Land Rover's fashion statement on the new Luxury Defender

Land Rover mixes music, adventure to debut Defender in US

"....."The 4xFar festival was created to celebrate the new 2020 Land Rover Defender coming to the U.S., and is an opportunity to engage with American pop culture in a relevant and engaging way to raise overall brand awareness." ....

....Attendees can take part in wilderness survival exercises such as foraging for food. Other experiences include the chance to go slacklining or watch a fly fishing demonstration. ......

....Crafty and artistic types can take a nature photography workshop or personalize a reusable water bottle.

Promoting wellness, activities also include the chance to relax and stretch in a hammock or take part in a yoga class......

.....Other luxury brands have hosted their own music festivals as a means to reach emerging generations of luxury consumers.

In 2017, Italian fashion house Gucci invited the contemporary electronic music scene to its then newly opened headquarters for a festival......

......A recent report found that about half of luxury car sales in the U.S. are SUVs, making the nation a prime target for Land Rover. ........"

 

[mpinco]

You present three options, none of which are practical. The people that think the Defender is a joke don't want a JL or a classic LR (they might already have one). They want a modern Defender, not the Playskool DC100. For those who have a hard time imagining this, the closest I can suggest is to imagine a JL Wrangler/Gladiator with higher towing/payload, stronger components, larger cargo capacity, and Defender design (of course).

Yup, lots of examples discussed as a 'reference' but not hard design requirements or any mention of rock crawling (well unless you think broken down granite/shale is 'rock crawling') There is a reason LR is no longer the vehicle of choice in large / remote areas of even the US or market segments of the world.

 

[Pilat]

You present three options, none of which are practical. The people that think the Defender is a joke don't want a JL or a classic LR (they might already have one). They want a modern Defender, not the Playskool DC100. For those who have a hard time imagining this, the closest I can suggest is to imagine a JL Wrangler/Gladiator with higher towing/payload, stronger components, larger cargo capacity, and Defender design (of course).

I'm sorry, but I am not talking about "Practical". I am repeating all the claims about wanting the landrover to be solid axle in the back and the front, the claims that it should be easily modified like the Wrangler, and so on. Whether that's "practical" or not, I don't care. I do not actually want any of that.

If you want a "modern" defender, but with solid axles back and front, easily modded, and so on, you will end up with the old, discontinued Defender. You can't get rid of the problem of solid axle without disconnecting it.

You want them to stay with old tech, yet you claim you want a modern version of it. A modern suspension design is not solid axles. In order to improve that, the axles have been disconnected.
And as for your qualms about the air bags: When you were told you could get one with coil springs-only, you then said that you then wouldn't get as much clearance. Well, duh. That's why this is modern and is more capable. It makes use of modern tech rather than adhering to old-tech only. Old tech is much more limited than new tech.

 

[Pilat]

Main issues are yes, styling; the Defender is an icon of automotive design, that was thrown in the trash.

I have concerns about its capability, but we don't need to go there again. I wouldn't discount comparison to mildly modified classics, as simplicity was a feature, and simplicity allows ease of modification. A rear locker is common, and not difficult or expensive; a natural result of the classic platform.

Another main concern is the lack of pickup, which severely restricts and reflects the lack of focus on utility; and soft top variants, which greatly reduces its fun/leisure factor.

Finally, it's the combination of unreliability, complexity, and off-grid intentions; a lethal combination that they have long struggled to execute.

The MINI is a 2018 Countryman. Quite simply, it is the only MINI that will fit child-seats.

Aaand we're back to "image".
I am sure you can put on some "manly" stickers and put on ridiculous lifts on this too if you want. Hell, you can even advertise your favourite brands if that makes it look more manly to you.
Hell, you can get those "truckernutz" or whatever they're called.

When did the old Defender stop being made in a pickup version?

Seriously, you may be right you didn't want the new defender to be a carbon copy of the solid-front-axle Wrangler: It now looks like you want it to be an old-school pickup truck. That, and you just don't like the styling. Or that women drives something that looks similar in your neighbourhood (as was previously claimed as a strike against the new Defender).

 

[Todd780]

Styling is subjective. It's okay if someone doesn't like the styling of a particular vehicle. I know styling plays a part in my vehicle purchases. I don't think I'm alone there. Otherwise vehicles like the Aztek would have done better.

 

[Pilat]

Yes, of course it's okay to not like a particular look. But that's not the only thing they're claiming, is it? How about the claim that it can't possibly be good enough or it doesn't look "manly" enough because some styling cues are found in other Land Rovers that the person saw "mostly women" drive?
That doesn't strike you as even a bit ridiculous?

I'm okay with people honestly saying they don't like the look of something. That's perfectly fine. You can't account for taste. This was more about what image it somehow afforded him, because he didn't want to look like he's driving something similar to all those other LRs that women drive in his neighbourhood.

 

[Todd780]

Why does anyone have to justify why they do or don't like the looks of something?

 

[Pilat]

Why does anyone have to justify why they do or don't like the looks of something?

That particular nugget was offered up as a strike against the new one. No one asked him to reveal his inner thoughts about his "manliness" and women.

 

[mpinco]

LR marketing is conflicted on the new Defender. While they are trying to tout it as a return to roots, they are introducing it at a Gucci like pop festival with yoga and hammocks. That is the roots of Range Rover, not the Defender. Feels like the collapse of Jaguar and Land Rover into virtually a single entity is progressing.

 

[EricTyrrell]

I'm sorry, but I am not talking about "Practical".

By practical, I mean a solution to what people actually wanted, which is not an old Defender, nor is it a Wrangler.

If you want a "modern" defender, but with solid axles back and front, easily modded, and so on, you will end up with the old, discontinued Defender. You can't get rid of the problem of solid axle without disconnecting it.

No, you "end up" with what I described.

imagine a JL Wrangler/Gladiator with higher towing/payload, stronger components, larger cargo capacity, and Defender design (of course).

That is not an old Defender. Assuming continued similarity to the JL/Jimny/etc, it would possess far improved safety, entertainment, and comfort, but retains its classic strengths.

When you were told you could get one with coil springs-only, you then said that you then wouldn't get as much clearance.

Correct, neither LR's unreliable/complicated air-suspension or disadvantaged coil IS belong are a good fit for a Defender.

 

[Pilat]

By practical, I mean a solution to what people actually wanted, which is not an old Defender, nor is it a Wrangler.

What "people" are you talking about? The old defender didn't sell.

But you're right, there are also old-school pickups available. You explicitly stated you wanted it to be offered as a pickup.

No, you "end up" with what I described.

A solid axle (also on the front) was your old wishlist. Is that now void?

That is not an old Defender.

No, with these latest diversions, it is now a pickup truck.

Assuming similarity to the JL/Jimny/etc has far improved safety, entertainment, and comfort, but retains its classic strengths.

LOL, you think the one star of the Wrangler is a far improvement in safety?
And now that you mention the Jimny and Wrangler again, we're back to those kind of cars. And, suprisingly, neither the Jimny, nor the Wrangler can carry or tow much.
If you want an uprated Wrangler - that can actually tow and carry something, perhaps you should ask Fiat/Chrysler to make such a thing. They already have a vehicle with a solid front axle.

Correct, neither LR's unreliable/complicated air-suspension or disadvantaged coil IS belong are a good fit for a Defender.

LR's unreliable? You are talking about a completely revised and ruggedised version of this. Something you don't actually know if it is unreliable. It seems you're living in the 1990s.
And once again, you're claiming that you want solid axles - even one in front because that is a good fit for a Defender. So we are once again back to wanting it to be like the Wrangler. Old school to the extent that you want even the front to be solid axle. Go ask Fiat/Chrysler. They seem to be a-okay with using old inferior tech when it comes to Jeep.

 

[mpinco]

Circular arguments. Admit it, JLR went upmarket with the Defender by design. Their target is luxury, not utility. JLR's "roots" in the US is the Gucci crowd as demonstrated by their highly urban coastal market share and complete absence in the Midwest. As the local dealer noted they pick their dealer locations by ranking zip codes by income. Their target customer is not blue collar, it's upper professional class. Moving upmarket to luxury is a business decision.

Highly complex technology is acceptable to JLR's target market. They will only own the vehicle for the lease term/warranty period.

 

[Todd780]

That is not an old Defender. Assuming continued similarity to the JL/Jimny/etc, it would possess far improved safety, entertainment, and comfort, but retains its classic strengths.

No, with these latest diversions, it is now a pickup truck.

The old Defender was offered in pick up variations.

 

[mpinco]

The old Defender was offered in pick up variations.

There is little reason for the professional class to own a pickup, especially an old design.

Not trying to introduce politics/class in the discussion. Just simple business choices.

Now if JLR actually wanted to "return to it's roots" we would have a different vehicle to critique.