tire chains for hard core winter trail rides
I respond here to both METCALF and 007. First from METCALF.
METCALF: see blue. 30 degree? Or 30 percent? 30 degrees. There are several slopes in the logging trails we ride where they really do hit 30 degrees for a hundred yards at a clip, or more. One trail we ride goes up 1600 feet vertical in about 1 mile. There are multiple springs seeping out of the side hill across the trail. You go across sections with a foot of snow and then across sections with little snow but lots of clear, hard ice from the springs seeping.
In the right conditions stuff like this is possible with the proper setup. As in just aired down rubber tires? I do not believe it. I would need to see a video to buy into that. Especially stopping and then starting again on the slope. Several well built rigs with bead locks in my area that run these slopes in the dry season can not touch them in the winter, even with bead locks and air way down. Yet my one friend's slightly modified CJ 7 with 36 inch TSL, 6 cylinder stock carb engine and 4 tire chains (5/16" material and 2 link sapcing) goes right up it in the snow when things are truly frozen and hard. This would require gearing in excess of 100:1 in my experience, My friend's CJ has 6.66 to 1 for 1st gear, rears about 4.88 to 1 and Dana 20 (I think) transfer case, 20 PSI with the chains and no problem at all. 2 psi in the tires, and generally a properly set up vehicle with a front heavy weight bias. Well, I agree front heavy is best for climbing, but then you have to come back down. At any rate, keep my friends CJ 7 in mind. I have tilt meters in the rig so I am not pulling your chain. All my experience is out west. Mine is East. 95% of the snow here is heavy and wet. Every few years we get a foot or two of dry blow snow (puff). I have never been in a situation where I have been passed by someone with chains. That tells me you wheel where there is not much ice underneath and not much heavy snow. Maybe things are different out east? I honestly don't know. There tends to be a huge difference, initially. East is usually heavy and wet, packs to great snow ball throwing snow almost all the time and turns to "snice" the first time you drive it. West is usually PUFFIER than East and easier to push through and reach the bottom, initially. But it will pack down and ice after a few times over it. The only thing that turns us around on snow trips is when the trail is side hill drifted. Even Kristi snowcat's with there leveling track system cannot do stuff like that. You either have to blade it flat or find another way around. Side hills are nasty business. Agreed. But I tell you iced side hills with little snow that you can not even walk on are easy as pie with 2 link spaced v-bar chains.
My experience is that a properly chained 4x4 will always do better on a mid winter trail witha foot of snow and compressed snow/ice under it than a non chained vehicle. Do you disagree with that?
I agree that with only a foot of snow that chains are a completely viable option. Viable option? They kick the living hell out of aired down tires head to head. I have never had issues in a foot of snow airing down though. I wish you could come wheeling with me and visa versa. From what I have witnessed over the years chains are generally harder on the trail and harder on the vehicle. I see that differently. Guys that try and run the trail without chains usually beat hell on their rigs, repeatedly have to back up and go another bit, then back down again and go some more. They are more dependent on inertia on the tougher sections of the trail and run higher RPMs. With chains the wheel speeds are slower and in most spots you can creep instead of slide. Of course, if the chains are ill fitted, 4 link spaced on the cross treads and using tensioners they are far from what they could be. Again, just what I have noticed. Most of the people over the years that have chained up to go out with us scummed to airing down later that day. It seems to be much more fluid and smooth than chains. ??? Airing down does make the ride quite a bit nicer. No doubt about it. But that is with or without chains. I love the trail once it has about 6" of snow on it. That smooths it out nicely, too. But NO ONE has ever made it on a trail ride in mid winter in these mountain trails I run in NE PA with me without resorting to chains. And I have seen a lot of guys try.
I would be interesting to do some controlled experiments. Maybe Overland Journal would like to do something like this? That would be cool.
The only time I see chains being a big help is on pure ice. Even worse, pure ice that has been in the sun for a bit with a little water on top. Stuff like that is deadly. Fortunately for me I haven't come across a situation like that. Well, fortunately for me, I did come across it but was lucky enough to have it educate me instead of kill me. I was lazy one night in early PA buck season in my younger days and did not put the chains on at the trail head as it was late and there was little snow on the ground. About 1/2 mile up the trail I hit a patch of ice at night in the ruts and swapped ends on a 25 degree slope with a 60 degree angle drop off. A small rock the size of a fist that was frozen into the trail caught my one tire from going over the edge. I opened the door to get out and use the winch to secure myself to the uphill side of the road but as I set my foot onto the jeep road the wet ice was so slick I slid underneath the truck and I was wearing a nice pair of Sorel felt pacs. It took me 3 hours to use the winch and get the chains on while on that nasty slope. I kept falling down and had real trouble standing on the road. Then I just drove right up it like nothing after the chains were on. I do think that Studs or great snow tires would be a great way to deal satisfactorily with this without the weight penalty of chains. Don't even suggest to anyone that "great snow tires" are safe on such a surface. Especially since you have not experienced it. It is truly dangerous stuff and should not be attempted without steel of some sort biting into the ice. On the level it is no big deal not being able to move on ice, but hitting a 50 yard patch while descending a steep trail can get you killed without chains. If there is no ice where you wheel, super. Safe is always good.Now I just want to state for the Audience.....
I am NOT saying my way works better than anything else. I am just stating my opinion on the subject that I have formed from off road driving in my area. It is perfectly plausible that other techniques work better in other areas and in other conditions. I am only stating what I have witnessed, learned, and found works for me. Same here. But I have experienced true, thick ice on steep slopes. It is dangerous without chains.
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to pack this thread with good information, point, counter-point, etc. I hope it will continue to grow into a great thread that can be used for reference.
007, Run what works for you brother! If that is a common problem where you are then chains sound like a solution.
What I am trying to convey in this thread is that there is NOT only one way to do things. I know what you mean philosophicaly and agree with it but as to facts I have to throw down on one point. ON ICED SLOPES WITH A WHEELED VEHICLE THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY - YOU NEED STEEL BITING INTO THE ICE OR PEOPLE WILL GET HURT. I want people to have as much knowledge as they can. Every person needs to weigh the pro's and con's then decide what they want to do. Are chains worth the weight? Can I air down without having to worry about beads? Can I air back up? How do I deal with bead problems? I agree with the general philosophy. Each to their own but share the experience.
Now for some fun....
You can always go for 500+ hp and 44" plus tires aka...the wheeled snowmobile! Interesting. believe it or not, the snowmobiles stay off these trails I run. They tend to sink in and bog down because the hills are too steep, rock filled and windy for them to have sufficient speed for floating. But along those lines (1200 HP actually), check out these Icelandic Formula 4x4s. Awesome stuff. They can literally run on water (as long as they don't stop). http://www.youtube.com/user/1966ih#p/f/4/_3JdYfzOBBE
FROM 007:
I run into the icy slopes issue constantly out here. During the hunting season its the worst because you have plenty of guys packing the snow into ice wherever they can possibly get.
007: See blue. There are many places where studs and siped snow tires would easily slide off, heck even v-bar chains are still sketchy in a lot of places. Absoultely. I have seen so many "newbies" take their nice rigs, with lockers and decent tires to my winter trails only to get quickly schooled when they could not make the first 100 yards. Save up for the 2 link spaced chains. You will not regret it. My biggest fear for the newbie kids is early spring. The Southeast side of the mountain looses it's snow first. The kids can get their rigs UP the mountain on the SE face. But then the trail wraps around to the NW face and there are plenty of drifts left on the level areas and the trail that leads off the NW face downhill to civilization invariably has ice in several spots. The first downhill patch you hit is on a 20 degree slope where you would somehow have to back up a 1/4 mile or so to turn around. Once you hit the ice on that slope you better damn well have chains on. One of the local landowners got so tired of having kids in trouble knock on his door in the middle of the night that he used heavy equipment to block the trail across his land. He got tired of calling ambulances once or twice a season for someone that hit the ice, gained speed downhill then flipped/rolled.
Check out http://www.youtube.com/user/1966ih
Regards and safe wheeling to all.1966IH
I respond here to both METCALF and 007. First from METCALF.
METCALF: see blue. 30 degree? Or 30 percent? 30 degrees. There are several slopes in the logging trails we ride where they really do hit 30 degrees for a hundred yards at a clip, or more. One trail we ride goes up 1600 feet vertical in about 1 mile. There are multiple springs seeping out of the side hill across the trail. You go across sections with a foot of snow and then across sections with little snow but lots of clear, hard ice from the springs seeping.
In the right conditions stuff like this is possible with the proper setup. As in just aired down rubber tires? I do not believe it. I would need to see a video to buy into that. Especially stopping and then starting again on the slope. Several well built rigs with bead locks in my area that run these slopes in the dry season can not touch them in the winter, even with bead locks and air way down. Yet my one friend's slightly modified CJ 7 with 36 inch TSL, 6 cylinder stock carb engine and 4 tire chains (5/16" material and 2 link sapcing) goes right up it in the snow when things are truly frozen and hard. This would require gearing in excess of 100:1 in my experience, My friend's CJ has 6.66 to 1 for 1st gear, rears about 4.88 to 1 and Dana 20 (I think) transfer case, 20 PSI with the chains and no problem at all. 2 psi in the tires, and generally a properly set up vehicle with a front heavy weight bias. Well, I agree front heavy is best for climbing, but then you have to come back down. At any rate, keep my friends CJ 7 in mind. I have tilt meters in the rig so I am not pulling your chain. All my experience is out west. Mine is East. 95% of the snow here is heavy and wet. Every few years we get a foot or two of dry blow snow (puff). I have never been in a situation where I have been passed by someone with chains. That tells me you wheel where there is not much ice underneath and not much heavy snow. Maybe things are different out east? I honestly don't know. There tends to be a huge difference, initially. East is usually heavy and wet, packs to great snow ball throwing snow almost all the time and turns to "snice" the first time you drive it. West is usually PUFFIER than East and easier to push through and reach the bottom, initially. But it will pack down and ice after a few times over it. The only thing that turns us around on snow trips is when the trail is side hill drifted. Even Kristi snowcat's with there leveling track system cannot do stuff like that. You either have to blade it flat or find another way around. Side hills are nasty business. Agreed. But I tell you iced side hills with little snow that you can not even walk on are easy as pie with 2 link spaced v-bar chains.
My experience is that a properly chained 4x4 will always do better on a mid winter trail witha foot of snow and compressed snow/ice under it than a non chained vehicle. Do you disagree with that?
I agree that with only a foot of snow that chains are a completely viable option. Viable option? They kick the living hell out of aired down tires head to head. I have never had issues in a foot of snow airing down though. I wish you could come wheeling with me and visa versa. From what I have witnessed over the years chains are generally harder on the trail and harder on the vehicle. I see that differently. Guys that try and run the trail without chains usually beat hell on their rigs, repeatedly have to back up and go another bit, then back down again and go some more. They are more dependent on inertia on the tougher sections of the trail and run higher RPMs. With chains the wheel speeds are slower and in most spots you can creep instead of slide. Of course, if the chains are ill fitted, 4 link spaced on the cross treads and using tensioners they are far from what they could be. Again, just what I have noticed. Most of the people over the years that have chained up to go out with us scummed to airing down later that day. It seems to be much more fluid and smooth than chains. ??? Airing down does make the ride quite a bit nicer. No doubt about it. But that is with or without chains. I love the trail once it has about 6" of snow on it. That smooths it out nicely, too. But NO ONE has ever made it on a trail ride in mid winter in these mountain trails I run in NE PA with me without resorting to chains. And I have seen a lot of guys try.
I would be interesting to do some controlled experiments. Maybe Overland Journal would like to do something like this? That would be cool.
The only time I see chains being a big help is on pure ice. Even worse, pure ice that has been in the sun for a bit with a little water on top. Stuff like that is deadly. Fortunately for me I haven't come across a situation like that. Well, fortunately for me, I did come across it but was lucky enough to have it educate me instead of kill me. I was lazy one night in early PA buck season in my younger days and did not put the chains on at the trail head as it was late and there was little snow on the ground. About 1/2 mile up the trail I hit a patch of ice at night in the ruts and swapped ends on a 25 degree slope with a 60 degree angle drop off. A small rock the size of a fist that was frozen into the trail caught my one tire from going over the edge. I opened the door to get out and use the winch to secure myself to the uphill side of the road but as I set my foot onto the jeep road the wet ice was so slick I slid underneath the truck and I was wearing a nice pair of Sorel felt pacs. It took me 3 hours to use the winch and get the chains on while on that nasty slope. I kept falling down and had real trouble standing on the road. Then I just drove right up it like nothing after the chains were on. I do think that Studs or great snow tires would be a great way to deal satisfactorily with this without the weight penalty of chains. Don't even suggest to anyone that "great snow tires" are safe on such a surface. Especially since you have not experienced it. It is truly dangerous stuff and should not be attempted without steel of some sort biting into the ice. On the level it is no big deal not being able to move on ice, but hitting a 50 yard patch while descending a steep trail can get you killed without chains. If there is no ice where you wheel, super. Safe is always good.Now I just want to state for the Audience.....
I am NOT saying my way works better than anything else. I am just stating my opinion on the subject that I have formed from off road driving in my area. It is perfectly plausible that other techniques work better in other areas and in other conditions. I am only stating what I have witnessed, learned, and found works for me. Same here. But I have experienced true, thick ice on steep slopes. It is dangerous without chains.
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to pack this thread with good information, point, counter-point, etc. I hope it will continue to grow into a great thread that can be used for reference.
007, Run what works for you brother! If that is a common problem where you are then chains sound like a solution.
What I am trying to convey in this thread is that there is NOT only one way to do things. I know what you mean philosophicaly and agree with it but as to facts I have to throw down on one point. ON ICED SLOPES WITH A WHEELED VEHICLE THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY - YOU NEED STEEL BITING INTO THE ICE OR PEOPLE WILL GET HURT. I want people to have as much knowledge as they can. Every person needs to weigh the pro's and con's then decide what they want to do. Are chains worth the weight? Can I air down without having to worry about beads? Can I air back up? How do I deal with bead problems? I agree with the general philosophy. Each to their own but share the experience.
Now for some fun....
You can always go for 500+ hp and 44" plus tires aka...the wheeled snowmobile! Interesting. believe it or not, the snowmobiles stay off these trails I run. They tend to sink in and bog down because the hills are too steep, rock filled and windy for them to have sufficient speed for floating. But along those lines (1200 HP actually), check out these Icelandic Formula 4x4s. Awesome stuff. They can literally run on water (as long as they don't stop). http://www.youtube.com/user/1966ih#p/f/4/_3JdYfzOBBE
FROM 007:
I run into the icy slopes issue constantly out here. During the hunting season its the worst because you have plenty of guys packing the snow into ice wherever they can possibly get.
007: See blue. There are many places where studs and siped snow tires would easily slide off, heck even v-bar chains are still sketchy in a lot of places. Absoultely. I have seen so many "newbies" take their nice rigs, with lockers and decent tires to my winter trails only to get quickly schooled when they could not make the first 100 yards. Save up for the 2 link spaced chains. You will not regret it. My biggest fear for the newbie kids is early spring. The Southeast side of the mountain looses it's snow first. The kids can get their rigs UP the mountain on the SE face. But then the trail wraps around to the NW face and there are plenty of drifts left on the level areas and the trail that leads off the NW face downhill to civilization invariably has ice in several spots. The first downhill patch you hit is on a 20 degree slope where you would somehow have to back up a 1/4 mile or so to turn around. Once you hit the ice on that slope you better damn well have chains on. One of the local landowners got so tired of having kids in trouble knock on his door in the middle of the night that he used heavy equipment to block the trail across his land. He got tired of calling ambulances once or twice a season for someone that hit the ice, gained speed downhill then flipped/rolled.
Check out http://www.youtube.com/user/1966ih
Regards and safe wheeling to all.1966IH
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