2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[T-Willy]

I really want to like the new Defender. It is, among vehicle offerings for remote touring in the U.S., unique in its combination of payload and off road capability. I can tolerate styling that I dislike, and trust the suspension, though not live axle, has been engineered to work well enough. But for purposes of remote touring and not being left stranded, Land Rover's bottom-of-the-barrel dependability ranking is, for me, disqualifying. They really need to fix that in order to be taken seriously in this segment.

 

[Murphypants]

Again, the computers are extremely reliable. They don't break. The ones in the Defender are also waterproofed.

Sorry - but calling **************** on any claim that "computers don't break". Have gotten rid of several cars that were longer in the tooth because they needed expensive computer module updates/replacements (loved my old VW Passat 4Motion wagon) that were too expensive (given what the car was worth) to replace. Yes, things have gotten better and they are trying their best to waterproof stuff, but I'm very sympathetic to the worries of folks on this thread who say all the computerized gizmos will make the new Defender something that you won't want to own past its warranty. Sad, but don't think we're going to see anything in this vintage run long term like the early Rovers were . . .

 

[DieselRanger]

I really want to like the new Defender. It is, among vehicle offerings for remote touring in the U.S., unique in its combination of payload and off road capability. I can tolerate styling that I dislike, and trust the suspension, though not live axle, has been engineered to work well enough. But for purposes of remote touring and not being left stranded, Land Rover's bottom-of-the-barrel dependability ranking is, for me, disqualifying. They really need to fix that in order to be taken seriously in this segment.

If you dig into these, you'll notice that this rating is for "all problem reports per 100 vehicles." If you read about how they rate them, these are the categories:

Exterior
Features/Controls/Displays
Seats
Interior
The Driving Experience
Audio/Communication/Entertainment/Navigation
HVAC
Engine/Transmission

and,

- The makes and models that are most trouble-free
How vehicle problems experienced compare with owners’ expectations
- The influence of problems on owners’ overall satisfaction with their vehicle
- The types of problems owners consider most bothersome
- Problems that have the greatest negative impact on loyalty
- Major components that are replaced during the first 3 years of ownership
- Diagnostic problem detail to help understand where and under which conditions problems may occur

Of all of these, the only objective measures are actual failure counts of mechanical items. Everything else is subjective. So when you get a new buyer of a $135,000 Full Fat Range Rover and they're annoyed that their delicate be-Rolexed wrist had to reach out twice to tap the infotainment display to get it to do something that it should have done telepathically, they call the dealer and have them come and pick it up to "fix" it.

Let's look at the detailed ratings for 2019:

2019 Dependability Midsize Premium SUV Awards | J.D. Power

See the winners of 2019 Dependability. Ratings are based on verified vehicle owners. J.D. Power has the world's most trusted consumer ratings.

www.jdpower.com

You'll notice that the Discovery 5 hasn't been rated yet (2020 will be its first year), the LR4 was not rated for quality and reliability, and the Range Rover Sport, which loans its platform and mechanicals to the Discovery is rated higher than 2 Volvo models and the Acura MDX (a Honda product!) as well as the LR4. The quality and reliability measure includes "controls or features which are difficult to understand or operate" in addition to actual failures.

For comparison, here's how Jeep Wrangler fares:

2019 Dependability Compact SUV Awards | J.D. Power

See the winners of 2019 Dependability. Ratings are based on verified vehicle owners. J.D. Power has the world's most trusted consumer ratings.

www.jdpower.com

Dead ************** last and far lower than Land Rover in quality and reliability score. Huh.

EDIT: I'll also leave this here: https://jalopnik.com/stop-sale-issued-for-certain-2020-jeep-gladiators-over-1838067116, "Trucks involved in the recall could experience a driveshaft fracture, courtesy of some grease left off during assembly." Oh, that's nice. But they're field-repairable, right?

What about the Grand Cherokee?

2019 Dependability Midsize SUV Awards | J.D. Power

See the winners of 2019 Dependability. Ratings are based on verified vehicle owners. J.D. Power has the world's most trusted consumer ratings.

www.jdpower.com

Middle of the pack and a little better than the RRS...but not by much, and the ratings in the entire Premium Midsize SUV and Midsize SUV categories are all within a few points of each other - in other words, they're all about the same.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

 

[Utah KJ]

No they don't, not legal for US roads anyways.

My point is, it's freaking Land Rover. Not Honda or Kia. The world is saturated with IFS / IRS unibody soft roaders. Even Land Rover has 5 or 6 of them already. They took the defender name and bastardized it...same with the new Blazer from Chevy and heaven help us what the new Bronco ends up being. Yea, the new Defender has some tech to make it decent offroad and ticks some boxes for us, but why rely on tech? The parts exist, in the LR arsenal, to make a better attempt than this. If you want power seats and an electronic shifter for the trans and screens, get a stripped down Discovery. That will fit the bill for skiers, dirt roaders, beaches, and farm paths. Take the millions spent on that terrible front end design and fancy LED taillight array, square it up with some $8 regular headlights and taillights, and call it good. I can't imagine the hundreds of design and engineering hours that went into that bodywork, all the while the design existed, just needed some tweaks.

But it's got a steel wheel option, so I guess it's ok.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Roxors are street legal in cool states

 

[onemanarmy]

Ok. Yes, to nitpick, a Roxor can be made street legal in some instances in some states, but is not relevant to this discussion.

The point is, the misguided top level people at TATA created an entirely new vehicle and slapped the Defender name on it, when in fact this new vehicle bares very little resemblance to that name. They are not the only automaker guilty of this weak mindedness and lack of creativity, but it still stings.

From body on frame, field fixable, solid axle, mechanical everything, manual everything, legendary off road and world expedition chops to unibody, IFS/IRS, drive by wire, 80+ computers, turbo and hybrid complexity, screens, leather, power seats, LED headlights, etc.

Now, nothing is wrong with that type of vehicle and embracing new tech, and if fact that sells. Every automaker is puking them out as fast as they can. But it's not a Defender.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Ok. Yes, to nitpick, a Roxor can be made street legal in some instances in some states, but is not relevant to this discussion.

The point is, the misguided top level people at TATA created an entirely new vehicle and slapped the Defender name on it, when in fact this new vehicle bares very little resemblance to that name. They are not the only automaker guilty of this weak mindedness and lack of creativity, but it still stings.

From body on frame, field fixable, solid axle, mechanical everything, manual everything, legendary off road and world expedition chops to unibody, IFS/IRS, drive by wire, 80+ computers, turbo and hybrid complexity, screens, leather, power seats, LED headlights, etc.

Now, nothing is wrong with that type of vehicle and embracing new tech, and if fact that sells. Every automaker is puking them out as fast as they can. But it's not a Defender.

I’m less confident labelling the new one as “not a defender”, but that’s because I take a different view of what a Defender should be. Some folks feel that a Defender must have solid axles and a ladder frame and minimal electronics, but there isn’t a new vehicle available today that checks all three of those boxes. I take a different view of what a Defender is. A Defender is a rugged adventure vehicle with good payload and a capable 4x4 system. This new Defender absolutely has good payload — the best in the market for this kind of vehicle as far as I know. Experience with the LR4 and other Rover products shows that the 4x4 system works, and works well — stock land rovers are incredibly capable. So the only part missing is ruggedness, and Land Rover has specifically stated that they are taking aim at the Land Cruiser for ruggedness and reliability. I don’t know whether that’s true or not but time will tell - however, Land Rover has been aware of what areas they will receive scrutiny on, and reliability is the most important for a huge chunk of the market they want to win back. If they check that third box, then this is absolutely a Defender in my books and will be at the top of the list for my next Expo rig.

The inclusion of and reliance on electronic components doesn’t concern me until we see a few test miles on the platform. We know that its possible to build robust electronic components — people have had EFI and ECUs controlling them for decades, and those systems are actually more reliable than carbs — so the real question is how well designed are the components in the Defender? I would suspect they got it right, but we won’t know for sure without a few million test miles.

 

[TexasTJ]

Look We just need to see a 90 on 37" tires and everyone will be happy!!! ? Yeah... 37's...

 

[DieselRanger]

Ok. Yes, to nitpick, a Roxor can be made street legal in some instances in some states, but is not relevant to this discussion.

The point is, the misguided top level people at TATA created an entirely new vehicle and slapped the Defender name on it, when in fact this new vehicle bares very little resemblance to that name. They are not the only automaker guilty of this weak mindedness and lack of creativity, but it still stings.

From body on frame, field fixable, solid axle, mechanical everything, manual everything, legendary off road and world expedition chops to unibody, IFS/IRS, drive by wire, 80+ computers, turbo and hybrid complexity, screens, leather, power seats, LED headlights, etc.

Now, nothing is wrong with that type of vehicle and embracing new tech, and if fact that sells. Every automaker is puking them out as fast as they can. But it's not a Defender.

The Roxor is absolutely relevant to the discussion because it ticks all your boxes.

The old Defender barely sold at all and wasn't available in the US or China, and couldn't be made available in either of those markets its old form. The new Defender will sell in comparatively large numbers in the US. And that's what keeps the lights on in Coventry.

 

[DieselRanger]

Look We just need to see a 90 on 37" tires and everyone will be happy!!! ? Yeah... 37's...

Land Rover says 35's will fit with a lift. Lifts for the Discovery cost less than $100....

 

[TexasTJ]

Land Rover says 35's will fit with a lift. Lifts for the Discovery cost less than $100....

But 37”s. Are hot on a 90

 

[nickw]

I really want to like the new Defender. It is, among vehicle offerings for remote touring in the U.S., unique in its combination of payload and off road capability. I can tolerate styling that I dislike, and trust the suspension, though not live axle, has been engineered to work well enough. But for purposes of remote touring and not being left stranded, Land Rover's bottom-of-the-barrel dependability ranking is, for me, disqualifying. They really need to fix that in order to be taken seriously in this segment.

Look like you need a Cayenne then!

 

[mpinco]

Found the following on MHEV powertrains which provides some insight into $12K adder and the large increase in ECU's.

MHEV - mild hybrid - does it really improve MPG

 

[JeepColorado]

A comparison of Defender, Wrangler, G-Class and 4Runner by the numbers

2020 Land Rover Defender Vs. Wrangler, 4Runner, G-Class

With the 2020 Land Rover Defender finally here, we compare the new off-roader to the Jeep Wrangler, Toyota 4Runner, and Mercedes G-Class.

www.motor1.com

 

[DieselRanger]

But 37”s. Are hot on a 90

It's also obviously worthless with any tire smaller than that.... ?

 

[GetOutThere]

My build and price kung-**** must be weak. Has anyone seen what differentiates models with air suspension from models without?