2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[JackW]

Diesel is cheaper than premium around here - and 30 mpg is way better than the gas engines will do. Plus it's quieter and has 450 ft-lbs of torque. Diesels don't require a whole lot of maintenance either in my experience and I've owned five of them.... 3 Land Rovers and two Mercedes.

That Wrangler was slow, noisy, handled abominably and tried to trip you every time you got out of it.

 

[JeepColorado]

Diesel is cheaper than premium around here - and 30 mpg is way better than the gas engines will do. Plus it's quieter and has 450 ft-lbs of torque. Diesels don't require a whole lot of maintenance either in my experience and I've owned five of them.... 3 Land Rovers and two Mercedes.

That Wrangler was slow, noisy, handled abominably and tried to trip you every time you got out of it.

I think the point is that there are already plenty of fast, plush and comfy SUVs that handle as well as sports cars or are as quiet as a Cadillac - You are not going to win any speed races with a Jeep Wrangler for sure, but there is clearly a huge market for a rough around the edges 4x4 that doesn't sacrifice capability for comfort. BTW, the Jeep Wrangler JL has unanimously been considered by 3rd party journalist as the best riding and handling Wrangler ever with huge improvements in interior refinement- a big part of why it won Motortrend's SUV of the Year this year. There are only a few nameplates that are worthy of carrying on such a legacy- the G-Wagon, the Wrangler, the Land Cruiser and the Defender, maybe the Bronco- The G-Wagon has clearly stayed close to those roots- front, center and rear lockers, styling that's not strayed too far and it's even kept it's refinement. The Wrangler is the very definition of how to stay close to your roots- the Bronco is yet to be seen. Toyota has allowed the Land Cruiser to suffer here in the States and it's off-road pedigree is worse off for it. I think there are several of us who hoped LR would choose to go with the G-Wagon/Wrangler in staying true to it's center with the Defender- instead they erred on the other side- as they did with the watered down Discovery. The world didn't need another IFS, air sprung, glamour mobile- there is a real lack of out of the box extremely capable 4x4s- Defender didn't have to be what it is and I think there's a lot of us who wish it wasn't.

 

[onemanarmy]

So you want them to build a late 90's Jeep in 2020? If that's what you want, I have great news for you - they're cheap and plentiful!

Diesel is cheaper than premium around here - and 30 mpg is way better than the gas engines will do. Plus it's quieter and has 450 ft-lbs of torque. Diesels don't require a whole lot of maintenance either in my experience and I've owned five of them.... 3 Land Rovers and two Mercedes.

That Wrangler was slow, noisy, handled abominably and tried to trip you every time you got out of it.

I must have missed it (and also the thought never crossed my mind)....but does this new vehicle require premium fuel?!

450 ft-lbs of torque for what? 300 ft-lbs is sufficient with proper gearing.

Also, your 30+ year old LR and MB diesels are worlds apart from the complex engines they are building now, I'm sure you know that.

 

[Blaise]

The world didn't need another IFS, air sprung, glamour mobile- there is a real lack of out of the box extremely capable 4x4s- Defender didn't have to be what it is and I think there's a lot of us who wish it wasn't.

Why is everyone insisting on calling this a glamour-mobile!?

I have a lot of respect for the wrangler but I drive a "IFS, air sprung, glamour mobile" and I take it anywhere in the US without trouble. Unless we're talking about hitting the Rubicon, there's really not a use case where this isn't a hardcore enough vehicle. I'm not sure why every place you go the assumption is that a Wrangler or Toyota is the only option - but that certainly was the only vehicles I saw this last week wheeling Moab/SWCO. I also put 50k miles on my Xterra driving around the western US and never found a place challenging enough for it (save some extreme trails in Moab).

I'm going to go ahead and assume that the Defender is going to cover 99.9999% of the hardest roads in the US - and the Rubicon can cover the other .00001% (the actual Rubicon!).

Remember - JLR has to sell cars. Not just appeal to that .00001% of customer base who woulda bought a wrangler anyway.

 

[JeepColorado]

Why is everyone insisting on calling this a glamour-mobile!?

I have a lot of respect for the wrangler but I drive a "IFS, air sprung, glamour mobile" and I take it anywhere in the US without trouble. Unless we're talking about hitting the Rubicon, there's really not a use case where this isn't a hardcore enough vehicle. I'm not sure why every place you go the assumption is that a Wrangler or Toyota is the only option - but that certainly was the only vehicles I saw this last week wheeling Moab/SWCO. I also put 50k miles on my Xterra driving around the western US and never found a place challenging enough for it (save some extreme trails in Moab).

I'm going to go ahead and assume that the Defender is going to cover 99.9999% of the hardest roads in the US - and the Rubicon can cover the other .00001% (the actual Rubicon!).

Remember - JLR has to sell cars. Not just appeal to that .00001% of customer base who woulda bought a wrangler anyway.

Why refer to it as a glamour-mobile- In large part because the bar is so high for one of the world's most iconic 4x4s. Traction control isn't as good as a selectable locker, Air Springs aren't as reliable and introduce a lot more complexity than coils and their longevity is questionable at best, the only off-road aspect of the Defender that bests a Wrangler are the break-over-angle and the departure angle- but only when it's standing on it's tippy-toes which in my experience has always felt unstable, decreased traction, and been uncomfortable. Which BTW- that advantage for the Defender is completely lost for the price of a $300 2" AEV spacer and some 35s on the Wrangler.- something you could easily afford with the $10-15K you will save with the Wrangler. All of this is completely fine for almost any other SUV on the road- it's not fine for what is supposed to be one of the top handful of 4x4s in the world.

 

[JackW]

I must have missed it (and also the thought never crossed my mind)....but does this new vehicle require premium fuel?!

450 ft-lbs of torque for what? 300 ft-lbs is sufficient with proper gearing.

Premium was recommended on my LR3 and I believe it is recommended on all current JLR models, I may be wrong on that.

I have used my Discovery to tow stuff, my travel trailer, a friend's 3500 lb x 23 foot long boat, a 25' enclosed trailer with a vintage Porsche inside, a car trailer with my Series IIA on it - 450 ft-lbs of torque comes in real handy when you use the vehicle as frequently I do. Next month a friend of mine wants me to help him tow his 1950 Ford convertible down from Spartanburg since his late model Blazer doesn't have the tow capacity to haul a 4000 lb car on a 1500 lb Uhaul trailer back down I-85 to Atlanta. having a whole bunch of torque at 1700 rpm makes towing a better experience, especially in hilly terrain.

 

[mpinco]

The Defender was introduced to the uncertainty of the automotive world that is experiencing significant changes. Who will survive?

Frankfurt's no-shows, darkened halls signal an industry in flux

FRANKFURT — You didn't need to look far to spot a metaphor for this year's Frankfurt auto show — and perhaps a European industry.

You just had to look up.

During the afternoon of the first press day last week, with the attending automakers squeezed into four halls (with many more halls dark and empty), the ceiling fell in. Literally.

In one corner of BMW's stand — in a massive structure that the automaker built a decade ago for itself (test track included) but now shares with other brands — the roof of one of the displays caved............

........."The IAA2019 is a huge fail," tweeted former Opel CEO Karl-Thomas Neumann. "It's a sad shadow of what it used to be."

Yes, Frankfurt was not Frankfurt this year. And it was a signal that everything is changing in this dynamic automotive world and a clear warning that no tradition is safe.

It was also a siren indicating that the European — and global — environment remains in a state of flux.

Nearly two-thirds of the world's car producers were absent. And word on the German street is that Daimler and Volkswagen Group seriously considered pulling out of the show months before its opening. When pressured by the German car association, they remained.

But, in the end, an awe-dropping 24 brands were absent and the number of exhibitors fell 20 percent. And to cap it off, the head of the German car lobby, which hosts the show, abruptly resigned................

..........And beyond Frankfurt? Germany is on the brink of recession. There is considerable deal/no-deal Brexit fatigue. Italy is a mess politically. And electric cars are about to be jammed into the market at a remarkable rate thanks to 2020 European regulations, consumer indifference be damned.

"There will be a major challenge for next year" concerning electrics, Audi CEO Bram Schot said last week. "You need a consumer willing to pay."

The cloud of electrification, and its acceptance, hangs over Europe. China's cooling has chilled the industry, particularly the European premium brands that used China as an escape hatch after 2009. And the European view of the U.S. is, in a word, flat.

But the biggest problem is Brussels..............."

While urban vehicles may be supported by EV technology, if the consumer will pay the high price, the rural consumer will be left out in the cold as the automotive industry is commanded to create specific products.

 

[mpinco]

The only viable powertrain option for us is the P400 MHEV, power wise. In addition to the $12K price tag I have significant concerns on long term ownership of that subsystem/s. So much so that I'm likely out with respect to the new Defender.

In addition I'm also likely not going to be a secondary market buyer as the cost of the technology and maintenance thereof will be prohibitive. Battery management systems are expensive. Would expect depreciation to be similar to other EV's which is large.

Welcome to the 70's ................ (when government regulation caused significant issues with product lines and product suffered)

 

[Todd780]

Why is everyone insisting on calling this a glamour-mobile!?

I have a lot of respect for the wrangler but I drive a "IFS, air sprung, glamour mobile" and I take it anywhere in the US without trouble.

The air sprung suspension is what worries me in my northern climate. Air suspension from any manufacturer don't seem to do well here in the winter months. I'm always seeing vehicles with collapsed air suspensions in winter here....

 

[onemanarmy]

But that's the rub....the government didn't mandate any turbo/hybrid tech be added to this new vehicle.

JLR has numerous N/A engines they could have used, for lower cost and less complexity sake, most likely with stop/start, but that can be programmed out.

But they chose to add the complexity. And having to use premium fuel, in a vehicle badged as a Defender?! Come on now.

 

[nickw]

Why refer to it as a glamour-mobile- In large part because the bar is so high for one of the world's most iconic 4x4s. Traction control isn't as good as a selectable locker, Air Springs aren't as reliable and introduce a lot more complexity than coils and their longevity is questionable at best, the only off-road aspect of the Defender that bests a Wrangler are the break-over-angle and the departure angle- but only when it's standing on it's tippy-toes which in my experience has always felt unstable, decreased traction, and been uncomfortable. Which BTW- that advantage for the Defender is completely lost for the price of a $300 2" AEV spacer and some 35s on the Wrangler.- something you could easily afford with the $10-15K you will save with the Wrangler. All of this is completely fine for almost any other SUV on the road- it's not fine for what is supposed to be one of the top handful of 4x4s in the world.

Then you must not be ok with any of the Land Rovers up until now then either....

 

[JeepColorado]

Then you must not be ok with any of the Land Rovers up until now then either....

I think most other modern LRs are fine- for what they are- plush SUVs that are way more comfortable than they are capable and prioritize luxuriousness and exclusivity over actual long-term use as a 4x4. This Defender I'd hoped would be different- and I'd agree that to some extent it might be... a little...but it doesn't appear by much.

 

[nickw]

But that's the rub....the government didn't mandate any turbo/hybrid tech be added to this new vehicle.

JLR has numerous N/A engines they could have used, for lower cost and less complexity sake, most likely with stop/start, but that can be programmed out.

But they chose to add the complexity. And having to use premium fuel, in a vehicle badged as a Defender?! Come on now.

They may not have directly mandated but they did indirectly with the MPG rating expectations moving forward. The rub is that people in this thread are bellyaching about MPG, then about it not having enough power, then range sucks, then it's too complicated. Can't have your cake and eat it too. You wan't reasonable MPG and power, you have (3) options:

1) hybrid
2) small displacement turbo
3) diesel

After actually OWNING a current vehicle with options #2, I think it's the best. I've also owned option #3 and in today's world, it's a PITA (many agree) and I think the reliability is down relative to the gas rigs. #1 is interesting, but is relatively new for the offroad market and has promise.

I was reluctant to get my Ranger with the 2.3 EB as were many guys when the F150 came out with the V6 EB's, but they've proven to be a solid platform with excellent power, rivaling the diesels with low end power and mileage that is not too far off. No reason to think the new JLR 2.0 wouldn't be very similar.

 

[Bayou Boy]

In addition I'm also likely not going to be a secondary market buyer as the cost of the technology and maintenance thereof will be prohibitive.

I was having this conversation with my brother yesterday. He works for a regional Toyota distributor. I used to buy used loaded out 1/2 ton trucks religiously. They had 25k miles or so, drove like new, and I kept them for a couple of years and pressed repeat.

I like loaded out trucks and cars. Those vehicles have crazy amounts of tech in them that will cost thousands to fix WHEN they break. I think the days of me buying second hand vehicles is over. I also think that high end vehicles (Denali, Limited, Platinum, etc) will start to see a significant drop in the depreciation rate as people start to realize that Nav, audio, and hvac systems will costs thousands to repair on that used luxury car they just bought for $20k.

 

[nickw]

I think most other modern LRs are fine- for what they are- plush SUVs that are way more comfortable than they are capable and prioritize luxuriousness and exclusivity over actual long-term use as a 4x4. This Defender I'd hoped would be different- and I'd agree that to some extent it might be... a little...but it doesn't appear by much.

Using your criteria, the old Rovers don't meet any of your 'standards'....they don't have great breakover, departure or approach, they don't do well with big oversize tires with their spindly 7.5R16's, they don't have selectable lockers...or any traction aides....so it actually sounds like the new Defender is CLOSER to a Jeep than the old ones according to you?

It's not like the Jeep is built to some magical standard like the Military / Humanitarian rigs are, e.g. older Defenders, Gwagen and 70 series. I'd put the Jeep much closer to a common LR than any of those rigs when it comes to long term 4x4 use.