2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[JeepColorado]

Using your criteria, the old Rovers don't meet any of your 'standards'....they don't have great breakover, departure or approach, they don't do well with big oversize tires with their spindly 7.5R16's, they don't have selectable lockers...or any traction aides....so it actually sounds like the new Defender is CLOSER to a Jeep than the old ones according to you?

It's not like the Jeep is built to some magical standard like the Military / Humanitarian rigs are, e.g. older Defenders, Gwagen and 70 series. I'd put the Jeep much closer to a common LR than any of those rigs when it comes to long term 4x4 use.

I agree, this new Defender is more capable than the old one- it'd be hard not to be- they had no lockers and terrible articulation. My point is that LR had a chance to do something really different rather than continue on with the same thing they've already got multiple examples. They took a tiny step in the right direction when they should have taken a leap. This Defender seems to me what the Discovery 5 should have been all along- and then you come out with a triple locked Defender on coils with a removable top as your flagship off-roader- there's clearly an incredibly robust market for such a vehicle.

 

[mpinco]

I agree, this new Defender is more capable than the old one- it'd be hard not to be- they had no lockers and terrible articulation. My point is that LR had a chance to do something really different rather than continue on with the same thing they've already got multiple examples. They took a tiny step in the right direction when they should have taken a leap. This Defender seems to me what the Discovery 5 should have been all along- and then you come out with a triple locked Defender on coils with a removable top as your flagship off-roader- there's clearly an incredibly robust market for such a vehicle.

You are missing a critical piece of data that is driving the automotive sector:

"............And electric cars are about to be jammed into the market at a remarkable rate thanks to 2020 European regulations, consumer indifference be damned. .........."

You WILL buy what you are told to buy or else. That product will be EV because the urban consumer is the target.

Not trying to turn this into a political discussion but the realities of what the manufacturers are facing needs to be repeated.

 

[calicamper]

I was having this conversation with my brother yesterday. He works for a regional Toyota distributor. I used to buy used loaded out 1/2 ton trucks religiously. They had 25k miles or so, drove like new, and I kept them for a couple of years and pressed repeat.

I like loaded out trucks and cars. Those vehicles have crazy amounts of tech in them that will cost thousands to fix WHEN they break. I think the days of me buying second hand vehicles is over. I also think that high end vehicles (Denali, Limited, Platinum, etc) will start to see a significant drop in the depreciation rate as people start to realize that Nav, audio, and hvac systems will costs thousands to repair on that used luxury car they just bought for $20k.

For the past 20 yrs I bought used Toyota trucks because there was no difference in power, mileage or basic technology between buying new vs used at half price.
This week I actually have a Ford dealer looking for the 2019 Expedition we are going to buy. All vehicles today are heavily computerized and complex. Which is why I also research warranty and the Ford I can buy a $200 deductible that covers me 8 yrs 150,000 miles for $2000. We got the 6 yr 125k for my Wifes commuter hybrid. Also a Ford. Its had one technical failure at 50,000 miles, $600 part took us 1 day to fix cost me $200. That warranty was $1200.

The 2019 Expedition makes my current Toyota old as dirt regarding technology, mileage, comfort, safety etc. So thats why I’m buying new after 20yrs of buying used.

We keep our vehicles a long time even the used ones. My current Toyota I’ve had 7 yrs and put 60,000 miles on it. Its going to my dad he needs a reliable vehicle.

Our new rig we’ll own 10-13yrs assuming no accidents etc

Why not a new Toyota or Subaru? We have both. Our dealers are all mega Auto Groups for those brands. Its no longer possible to either purchase, service or get parts for them at fair rates. Same goes for the certified techs get poor pay given they have no other dealers locally to switch too. They are simply store fronts for a monopolistic Auto Group manipulating the regional prices, fees etc.

The only locally family owned dealers are Domestic brands now. They compete, they treat employees well or loose solid people to the better employer down the street.

Our Rover shops tend to all be Auto group owned given they are tiny little store fronts and low hanging fruit for the Auto Groups

 

[onemanarmy]

What does electrification have to do with anything?

You can electrify anything. You can electrify a body on fame, coil sprung, solid axle vehicle. They were starting basically from new, they could have done anything. They could have made space/mounting for future batteries/motors all while using a gas motor. They are using gas motors now. Or electrify their smaller CUVs to satisfy CAFE numbers and the suburban/city drivers.

 

[Blaise]

I am following this thread with great interest. My big issues with LR is guality/main. As I keep vehicles for very long time.

In 2013 I was at dealer and agreed to buy RR Sport and was asked to wait for business manager to finish up so I could get my paperwork done. While waiting I sat in my 2004 jeep GC with almost 200k miles and started to think about the Sports maint. issues and since we already had a 2012 528i, I really asked if I wanted two expensive to maintain vehicles at same time.

To get to the chase, I canceled sale, called up Jeep dealer and asked if they had GC Overland in stock, I literally stopped by and picked it up on way home. We gave 2004 GC to son who is still using it.

My 2014 Jeep GC (bought in Sept. 2013) now has 174k miles and going strong, with factory lifetime warranty it should last another 5+ years.

So my long winded question is will the defender come with longer than 3 yr warranty, and do you realistically expect these to be relatively easy to maintain, as opposed to reputation of older models?

I can only say that my 12 year old Rover is just as reliable as the Toyotas of similar era, with the single caveat of learning how to do the PM on the EAS. I've replaced a set of O rings so far, nothing else. The pre '05 rovers are horrific, no argument there.

Why refer to it as a glamour-mobile- In large part because the bar is so high for one of the world's most iconic 4x4s. Traction control isn't as good as a selectable locker, Air Springs aren't as reliable and introduce a lot more complexity than coils and their longevity is questionable at best, the only off-road aspect of the Defender that bests a Wrangler are the break-over-angle and the departure angle- but only when it's standing on it's tippy-toes which in my experience has always felt unstable, decreased traction, and been uncomfortable. Which BTW- that advantage for the Defender is completely lost for the price of a $300 2" AEV spacer and some 35s on the Wrangler.- something you could easily afford with the $10-15K you will save with the Wrangler. All of this is completely fine for almost any other SUV on the road- it's not fine for what is supposed to be one of the top handful of 4x4s in the world.

The air suspension at full height is not topped out. None of us know the exact sag settings but on the LR3/4 it was only at 60/40 (on the lower side, 60% available for bump, 40% for droop) so there are no instability issues. I just did black bear a few days ago. You're 100% correct about spacers and 35s taking over the static number advantage but again this isn't the point of the vehicle. I own a Rover over a Wrangler not for capability but because I can drove 18 hours in comfort/silence/space, hit a button for a 3" lift, then tackle all the trails I want. I do think it's odd that you're questioning a balanced EAS setup but talking about a spacer... that can only make you more topped out and unstable as you suggest.

Again, for what it's worth, as somebody who's had a selectable locker before, I have yet to find a single case where the Terrain Response didn't make the right call for engaging the locker - but I believe this is actually going to be controllable on the Defender if you get Terrain Response II.

As a bonus, if you don't mind, what are the CO trails which you think this defender can't do? I just spent a week in SW colorado and would love to know what I've been missing out on (for the next trip)!

The air sprung suspension is what worries me in my northern climate. Air suspension from any manufacturer don't seem to do well here in the winter months. I'm always seeing vehicles with collapsed air suspensions in winter here....

How far north are you? I have a 12 year old air suspension which the original springs and the only work I've done is replace the o-rings in the front valve block. LR says they've tested the system in extreme cold, but I'd likely agree that this isn't the right truck if you're in Fairbanks...

 

[mpinco]

Where does the Defender need to go? Let's look at JLR partnerships.

BEV's are not the powertrain of choice for Land Rovers outside urban areas. (limited range) FCEV's offer promise but not until the second half of the next decade. Today we get MHEV's as an interim choice?

BMW Targeting 1 Million Plug-In Vehicles On The Road By 2021

"........Its new goal of 1 million EVs sold was announced by the company's CEO, Oliver Zipse, at the 2019 Frankfurt Motor Show. ...........

......."Looking ahead to the next decade, Zipse expects electromobility to develop at different rates around the world – due to the differences in infrastructure, customer driving profiles and political frameworks. According to BMW Group forecasts, customer demand should ensure that over 50 percent of new vehicle registrations in China’s premium segment will be pure battery-electric vehicles (BEV) in 2030. The figure for Europe will be only about half that number. The US, the world’s second largest vehicle market, will be at about the same level as Europe." .......

......."Hydrogen fuel cell technology could be a real solution, especially for long distances. The BMW Group expects demand for this technology to increase in the second half of the next decade and will be launching a test fleet of fuel cell vehicles in 2022. The company will present the BMW i Hydrogen NEXT development vehicle at this year’s IAA." ........."

A critical factor for the future of JLR will be very long warranties and very long financing/attractive lease terms.

 

[DieselRanger]

Excuse me? Not the right person for a traditional Land Rover?
....
The new Defender looks exactly like what I want to supplement my existing fleet of three older cousins - and I'll bet it will go anywhere I can go in my Defender 90 once I get some underbody protection on it. It will be perfect for a tour of the west that includes the roads in SW Colorado, the North Rim of the Grand Canyon, The Trans Am Trail, and the Back Country Discovery Routes (BDR). On a long trip I typically drive for 10-12 hours a day - and I can tell you you'll cover a lot more ground in a D5 or New Defender than you will in a SIIA 2.25 liter diesel 109" station wagon that tops out at 60 mph.

Spot on, ******** anyone who thinks any car isn't for some particular buyer. If you like it, buy it, if you don't, don't, but don't try to tell people they're not right for a given vehicle.

 

[DieselRanger]

@JackW

And nobody is buying diesels in serious numbers. Gas is cheap, diesel cost more upfront, to fuel up, and to maintain.

Um, diesels in all vehicles still outsell gasoline engines in almost every market except the US.

 

[mpinco]

The new Defender power train options (limited and expensive), imposition of Brussels mandates / consumer be damned, MHEV concerns and eventual transition to FCEV's makes the D5 more attractive. Now if the D6 could solve some of the issues LR lovers have with it vs transitioning to a different market segment envisioned by McGovern there is hope. Slight, but hope.

 

[Todd780]

How far north are you? I have a 12 year old air suspension which the original springs and the only work I've done is replace the o-rings in the front valve block. LR says they've tested the system in extreme cold, but I'd likely agree that this isn't the right truck if you're in Fairbanks...

Edmonton. My co-worker has issues every winter with his air sprung suspension and I constantly see vehicle of all makes and models having similar issues.

 

[Pilat]

I'd love a 90 diesel as a tow vehicle and without the weird blotting-out square. Hell, there is almost no light coming through that side window, so if need be, the commercial one would be better (if the panel van version could be registered as a private vehicle here in Denmark).
I think as a tow vehicle (for a 9m/30ft powerboat) it would be just about perfect for me - more capable than I actually need it to be.

 

[DieselRanger]

Why refer to it as a glamour-mobile- In large part because the bar is so high for one of the world's most iconic 4x4s. Traction control isn't as good as a selectable locker, Air Springs aren't as reliable and introduce a lot more complexity than coils and their longevity is questionable at best, the only off-road aspect of the Defender that bests a Wrangler are the break-over-angle and the departure angle- but only when it's standing on it's tippy-toes which in my experience has always felt unstable, decreased traction, and been uncomfortable. Which BTW- that advantage for the Defender is completely lost for the price of a $300 2" AEV spacer and some 35s on the Wrangler.- something you could easily afford with the $10-15K you will save with the Wrangler. All of this is completely fine for almost any other SUV on the road- it's not fine for what is supposed to be one of the top handful of 4x4s in the world.

The new Defender has traction control AND center/rear lockers that are user-controllable. The two together are unbeatable - doesn't matter if you have only three wheels on the ground, or even two - they're designed to work that way, and that's been demonstrated in any number of videos including the Velar's launch where they balanced it on two wheels and then drove it off after opening and closing the doors.

Who cares if it's complex if it works and it's reliable and durable? Over one million kilometers of testing under the Defender in conditions that will exceed probably 90% of the actual use any of them will ever see in private owners' hands. If that's not enough for the "purists" to feel confident in its abilities, no number ever will.

And Land Rover acknowledged they didn't make this for the "purists". As others have said, those people represent a very tiny minority of people Land Rover is targeting.

 

[Blaise]

I think it did, if I'm going to spend as much money on a car as the new Defender it had better be something I can drive every day and that my wife will ride in. It needs to be comfortable, capable and a viable replacement for my Discovery 5. My wife doesn't like my Defender and the thought of going on a 2500 mile trip in it would invite a riot. While I could and did use it to get back and forth to work before I retired and did regular weekend rides of several hundred miles in the D90, the LR3 and Discovery 5 have been stellar all around vehicles. I would expect a New Defender to be able to replace the Discovery but be more capable off road.

I rented a Wrangler on one of my trips to Ft Worth and there is no way I would want to daily drive that thing. After a week I was more than ready to turn that back in.

YES. THIS. EXACTLY.

I just drove 18 hours back from SW colorado and the comfort aspect is something that is ignored over and over and over by people arguing about departure and breakover angles. It's not much use if the 90% of the time you spend on the highway getting there is miserable. And judging by my friends with Toyota/Jeep/etc, it's important to note that I'm the only one who never has to drive solo... AND I'M STILL ON THE SAME ROADS! *turns on heated seats, climate control, etc*

(Again, I love the wrangler. I just don't own one because I know how much more it matters for us to be comfortable to get TO the trail than the extra little capability that I seem to never need).

 

[DieselRanger]

The air sprung suspension is what worries me in my northern climate. Air suspension from any manufacturer don't seem to do well here in the winter months. I'm always seeing vehicles with collapsed air suspensions in winter here....

I've driven mine in -20F conditions for days, never had any problem. It's not the cold, it's the salt and corrosion of fittings like brass valves. Land Rover addressed this specific issue in development for the L494 RRS and L462 Discovery.

I've also seen a lot of broken coil spring and leaf spring bits that rusted through and fell off, leaving jeeps sitting down a corner or a whole end.

 

[onemanarmy]

YES. THIS. EXACTLY.

I just drove 18 hours back from SW colorado and the comfort aspect is something that is ignored over and over and over by people arguing about departure and breakover angles. It's not much use if the 90% of the time you spend on the highway getting there is miserable. And judging by my friends with Toyota/Jeep/etc, it's important to note that I'm the only one who never has to drive solo... AND I'M STILL ON THE SAME ROADS! *turns on heated seats, climate control, etc*

(Again, I love the wrangler. I just don't own one because I know how much more it matters for us to be comfortable to get TO the trail than the extra little capability that I seem to never need).

Then why sully the Defender name? Why not just make a more 'offroad' version of the Discovery 5 if no one needs that last 1% capability. That's basically what they did, a more offroady Discovery, and slapped a Defender name on it, which spits in the face of the marque. JLR can make whatever they want, obviously, but I hate to see respected legacy names re-hashed cause they are lazy.

OR, make a vehicle worthy of the name, while also making the other vehicles that appeal to a broad customer base and have almost all the capability most want or need. Jeep doesn't only make the Wrangler. Porsche doesn't only make the 911. Toyota doesn't only make the Land Cruiser.

That's the point.

my 0.02