2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[RoyJ]

The issue is not “does lend rover knows how to a capable off-road trucks (yes..), rather “is it a Defender”?

So "Defender" has to be defined by the best technology, intended purpose, and social economics of 1948?

In year 2485, when we have anti-gravity pods like Star Wars, LR must create a 400 yr old iron-on-gravity solid axle wagon for it to be called "Defender"?

 

[JeepColorado]

Go back and read the comments. Or don't, actually, that will be days of your life you'll never get back.

TL;DR: The argument that a Defender is or is not a Defender is largely centered around the argument that FIS is or is not suitable for demanding off-road applications. An example in the "is suitable for" category is KOH rigs with FIS, which like any race car exemplify extremes in a given application - extremes in condition and extremes in engineering to match.

The Defender, as an off-road vehicle with FIS, is being argued as "not a Defender" because reasons, to include:
- It's too roundy, or something
- It's more expensive than a Jeep
- It's got "electronics" and "technology," as opposed to many levers and pedals and various kinds of mechanical things that can be repaired "in the field" when they inevitably break
- It has been constructed using mysterious wizardry called "metallurgy" and "FMEA" and "computers" that has resulted in a structure that prevents the body and the frame from being separated, or in fact even distinguishable from one another, rather than being designed with a stick scrawling in some beach sand
- It has fully independent suspension, with a sub-argument that it has airbags to control ride height, which some people have seen sometimes failing on old vehicles, rather than the same kind of suspension that Prairie Schooners and Surreys With A Fringe On Top and similar conveyances have used since Roman times.

Arguments that has no lockers have been soundly disproven.

Arguing that this Defender is not a Defender because it's very different is like arguing that a Porsche is not a Porsche because it uses coolant and no longer tries to kill its driver with snap oversteer, or that the Corvette is no longer a Corvette because the engine is behind the driver and you can no longer land a plane on the hood.



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I don't know whether this a Defender or not- I don't proclaim to have any special knowledge of the true spirit of LR, but as someone who has been very interested in the Defender and equally disappointed by what it is I'll comment

- "It's too roundy or something"- Looks are incredibly subjective and to each his/her own, but since you brought it up I think it is entirely understandable that people don't like the Defender. It looks like the DC100 which was handily rejected and mocked when it came out years ago as a concept. LR seems to have basically just waited for years without substantially changing the design hoping I guess that the times would catch up to the design. Given much of the internet discussion it doesn't seemed to have worked- it's mostly unremarkable and blends in- except for those "angry eyes" in the front which stand out for the wrong reasons. It looks like a bad 90's concept car of what cars will look like in the future.

- "It's more expensive"- it really is- the much celebrated $50-ish entry price is a marketing ploy. You won't be able to find one of those on the lot and when you build one online if you want it to have any real options- to include at a minimum a V6 for such a heavy vehicle you are closer to $70K. You can get a Rubicon with basically every option for low $50s- with the extra $15-20 you save you can do some tasteful mods like a winch and some lights or some high-end shocks to make it ride about as well as the LR will and still come in for much less $

- "Technology" vs the Tried and True- I love technology and at the same time I'm a big fan of reliable things that have been proven. A Jeep strikes a wonderful balance in this regard. The underpinnings have a foot firmly planted in things that have worked for decades. Solid Axles, Body on Frame, Lockers- while placing on top of that a modern interior with all the electronic and technology you could ever want in a vehicle designed to take in the dirt. I don't need to be the first person to buy an iPhone when it comes out and I don't need my vehicle that I plan on sticking in the mud and plowing through the snow and climbing up hills to have 85 separate computers. I think it's especially appropriate to be highly skeptical of LR in this regard given their history. These are not overblown concerns- Car and Driver recently had a Velar as a test vehicle and the gear shifting knob failed- wouldn't raise and they couldn't get the vehicle towed. Good luck with that miles away from civilization. I'm aware that the Defender has a different shifter, but what's going to break on the Defender? "Iffy reliability" dulling the shine of the LR. https://www.caranddriver.com/review...ver-velar-reliability-maintenance-20k-update/

- "Not designed with a stick in the sand" You can mock the simple design of the Jeep- 2 blocks basically- but that design has survived and sold and become an icon for 70 years- my 2 yr old nephew knows what a "Jeep" is simply by looking at it.

- Independent suspension and Airbags- It's a fact that IFS/IRS is more complex making issues more likely. It's a fact that airbags create an incredible vulnerability and make modification much more difficult. Outside of the extreme use of such as in KOH they cannot articulate as well as solid axles which matters in every single off-road situation you will find yourself in other than a flat area. The only time an IFS is preferable is at high speeds across undulating terrain- great if that's your style- but it's less capable in every other off-road situation there is. The only gain is a nicer ride on the road- that's important, but can largely be overcome with a great pair of shocks on a solid axle vehicle.

- Lockers vs Traction Control- TC looses every time. Waiting for computers to figure it out creates a jerky ride- watch ANY video of a LR climbing up dirt, sand or rocks and you will see TC struggling. Lockers are smooth and engaged from the moment it enters the obstacle- and with the flip of a switch can be turned off.

I don't know if it's a Defender- It seems to have not lived up to it's reputation as a simple and true 4x4 that prioritizes ability over comfort. The changes to the Wrangler and the G-Wagon have been evolutions- improvements to head into the future, while keeping a foot in the past- this is a revolution- a complete departure from the original- that's not just "different" that's polarizing and I think you see that in the comments and in the reactions.

 

[catmann]

Since you mentioned it, I think my biggest disappointment is the "angry eyes", they give the Defender a caricature face that it does not need. I think the rounded front end would be "ok" if the headlights had a different non-animated look.

 

[Victory_Overland]

Really?..
Use KOH as an example why the new LR Creation is what exactly?

You can’t be serious.

Could as well combine it to a Hamvee.. or a tatra, that also have independent suspension.
The issue is not “does lend rover knows how to a capable off-road trucks (yes..), rather “is it a Defender”?

And as for “did LR built a rock crawler, the original Defender( not this D5 hi breed..) has better articulation then a stock Jeep, and the 90’ is very capable in the rocks.





Slowly..

I actually believe I am now more dumb for reading these comments!

I don't know what this means in any sense related to how IFS is competing and beating (FACT) live axle vehicles due to increases in technology and innovation in an overall usability of fit, form, and function of "all around performance" over single dimension capability!

As stated earlier, every manufacturer is building vehicles to meet multi-purpose capabilities and appease a wider market; to include Jeep (which I said I love as well, just do not have a need for one). Jeep is increasing payload, tow, truck like similarities to expand their market by building gladiator and it was just rated as being one of the best all around "trucks" (NOT JEEP; but Truck) compared to like vehicles with it's only limitation being it's length compared to its competition causing clearance issues.

Imagine if Space X kept doing what NASA is now paying them to do; get to the out limits of space at 2% the NASA cost in less than ten years; a task that NASA could not do in over 60 years of space exploration because the public didn't like their current and proven technology.

Innovation my friend; get on board or die like the dinosaur! The comments on KoH were all about innovation and technology improvements across the board and proving that what was a limitation no longer is a limitation but a gain in innovation.

As @DieselRanger alluded to on development of vehicles that carry the same name through generations with completely different technology; if we want to get to brass tacks, the name on the hood says it's a Defender so doesn't matter what any of us think; just like us D1, D2, D3, D4 lovers thought about the D5!

But hey, the 1940 Jeep was so good that they changed the name from Jeep to ???? for the following 20 or so variants that got better in just about every aspect from the original "throw-away" military purpose JEEP that was never intended for street use. Oh wait, that's right, they didn't change the name, it's still a Jeep with a different model number or do you plan to argue that Jeep is now a company name and not the brand given to the vehicle that created the company name?

 

[DorB]

Arguing that this Defender is not a Defender because it's very different is like arguing that a Porsche is not a Porsche because it uses coolant and no longer tries to kill its driver with snap oversteer, or that the Corvette is no longer a Corvette because the engine is behind the driver and you can no longer land a plane on the hood.
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I disagree..
The Defender line, even before it was named Defender until the last real Defender, had different engines, power train, and trim levels.
Which made for different vehicles from a stylish European “Sidewalk Defender” with leather seats and so, to a bare overloaded African version.

But with all the evolution of models everybody always saw that it is a Defender.

Same for the G line, Jeep wrangler, 70’ series.
And your Porsche example..

That’s not the case with the “new Defender”
It’s more of a RR/Disco mix, and if LR would have title it D6 or a totally new line name, it would have been more logic.

I’m not anti prograss and development, totally not.

I just don’t think this new creation is the next step of what is the Defender character and spirit.






Slowly..

 

[Pilat]

I disagree..
The Defender line, even before it was named Defender until the last real Defender, had different engines, power train, and trim levels.
Which made for different vehicles from a stylish European “Sidewalk Defender” with leather seats and so, to a bare overloaded African version.

But with all the evolution of models everybody always saw that it is a Defender.

Same for the G line, Jeep wrangler, 70’ series.
And your Porsche example..

That’s not the case with the “new Defender”
It’s more of a RR/Disco mix, and if LR would have title it D6 or a totally new line name, it would have been more logic.

I’m not anti prograss and development, totally not.

I just don’t think this new creation is the next step of what is the Defender character and spirit.

So, you're not "anti prograss and development, totally not.".

Yet, you totally are when it comes to the Defender. I'm sorry, but the world moves on.

To me, a "Defender" is the best Land Rover can do with regards to an off-roader. That is: They put stuff in it to make it the best in their line-up. The old one was overtaken by technology, so to me, in the last decade or two, it was superceded by almost all their other offerings. Now it's back.
Another part that makes it a "Defender" to me, is the fact that it is availble in a two door short wheel-base version. Because that has always been the only "real" Defender to me. That said, the short one isn't as much as an all-rounder as the 110 or other offerings from Land Rover.

 

[DieselRanger]

While everyone is blaming Brexit for a significant decline in demand, the reality is that the auto industry is in turmoil and consolidation is the broad based discussion. Global debt is at large levels and economies are entering recession. The EU is already there and attempting negative interest rates. The mandated move to EV's is disrupting many manufacturers and consumers, JLR being one of them. The new Luxury Defender is introduced with a 2.0L engine while the only other option is a very expensive high-tech $12K adder with an unproven track record. Welcome to the 70's.

Technically, JLR is blaming Brexit for supply chain disruptions.

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[DieselRanger]

I disagree..
The Defender line, even before it was named Defender until the last real Defender, had different engines, power train, and trim levels.
Which made for different vehicles from a stylish European “Sidewalk Defender” with leather seats and so, to a bare overloaded African version.

But with all the evolution of models everybody always saw that it is a Defender.

Same for the G line, Jeep wrangler, 70’ series.
And your Porsche example..

That’s not the case with the “new Defender”
It’s more of a RR/Disco mix, and if LR would have title it D6 or a totally new line name, it would have been more logic.

I’m not anti prograss and development, totally not.

I just don’t think this new creation is the next step of what is the Defender character and spirit.






Slowly..

Ok, so your argument is based solely on looks then. Got it.

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[JeepColorado]

What problem...what business need does the Defender solve?

If you want the most capable out of the box 4x4 sold in the US you buy the Wrangler Rubicon...
if you are most anywhere else in the world you buy a Land Cruiser or Prado

If reliability is more important and you just need something capable enough in the US you buy a Land Cruiser 200

If you want a luxurious SUV that's capable enough off-road in the US you can buy a Lexus GX or a Ford Expedition Platinum FX4
If you are most anywhere else in the world you can buy a Patrol

It's not as off-road capable as a Wrangler, it's doubtful it will be as rugged/reliable/durable as a LC 200 and it won't be any more luxurious than about a dozen other offerings already on the market....Other than trading on the former glory of an old name, what does it add?

It steps in line with a string of other SUVs that are basically the same version of each other- will it be capable enough? I'm sure it will, for what it is. But more than what's already out there? No. It will be about as capable as all of the other IFS Luxury condos on wheels. Will it be reliable? Time will tell, but history isn't favorable and there are a lot of years of proven reliable history for LR to catch up with the Toyota's of the world. Will it be more luxurious than the Lexus/Infinity/Ford Platinum SUVs- it'll be about the same.

I think the Defender's greatest failing is that it's really not that different, not that extraordinary...it's not above and it's not beyond as their advertisements in the US say.

 

[DieselRanger]

I don't know whether this a Defender or not- I don't proclaim to have any special knowledge of the true spirit of LR, but as someone who has been very interested in the Defender and equally disappointed by what it is I'll comment

- "It's too roundy or something"- Looks are incredibly subjective and to each his/her own, but since you brought it up I think it is entirely understandable that people don't like the Defender. It looks like the DC100 which was handily rejected and mocked when it came out years ago as a concept. LR seems to have basically just waited for years without substantially changing the design hoping I guess that the times would catch up to the design. Given much of the internet discussion it doesn't seemed to have worked- it's mostly unremarkable and blends in- except for those "angry eyes" in the front which stand out for the wrong reasons. It looks like a bad 90's concept car of what cars will look like in the future.

- "It's more expensive"- it really is- the much celebrated $50-ish entry price is a marketing ploy. You won't be able to find one of those on the lot and when you build one online if you want it to have any real options- to include at a minimum a V6 for such a heavy vehicle you are closer to $70K. You can get a Rubicon with basically every option for low $50s- with the extra $15-20 you save you can do some tasteful mods like a winch and some lights or some high-end shocks to make it ride about as well as the LR will and still come in for much less $

- "Technology" vs the Tried and True- I love technology and at the same time I'm a big fan of reliable things that have been proven. A Jeep strikes a wonderful balance in this regard. The underpinnings have a foot firmly planted in things that have worked for decades. Solid Axles, Body on Frame, Lockers- while placing on top of that a modern interior with all the electronic and technology you could ever want in a vehicle designed to take in the dirt. I don't need to be the first person to buy an iPhone when it comes out and I don't need my vehicle that I plan on sticking in the mud and plowing through the snow and climbing up hills to have 85 separate computers. I think it's especially appropriate to be highly skeptical of LR in this regard given their history. These are not overblown concerns- Car and Driver recently had a Velar as a test vehicle and the gear shifting knob failed- wouldn't raise and they couldn't get the vehicle towed. Good luck with that miles away from civilization. I'm aware that the Defender has a different shifter, but what's going to break on the Defender? "Iffy reliability" dulling the shine of the LR. https://www.caranddriver.com/review...ver-velar-reliability-maintenance-20k-update/

- "Not designed with a stick in the sand" You can mock the simple design of the Jeep- 2 blocks basically- but that design has survived and sold and become an icon for 70 years- my 2 yr old nephew knows what a "Jeep" is simply by looking at it.

- Independent suspension and Airbags- It's a fact that IFS/IRS is more complex making issues more likely. It's a fact that airbags create an incredible vulnerability and make modification much more difficult. Outside of the extreme use of such as in KOH they cannot articulate as well as solid axles which matters in every single off-road situation you will find yourself in other than a flat area. The only time an IFS is preferable is at high speeds across undulating terrain- great if that's your style- but it's less capable in every other off-road situation there is. The only gain is a nicer ride on the road- that's important, but can largely be overcome with a great pair of shocks on a solid axle vehicle.

- Lockers vs Traction Control- TC looses every time. Waiting for computers to figure it out creates a jerky ride- watch ANY video of a LR climbing up dirt, sand or rocks and you will see TC struggling. Lockers are smooth and engaged from the moment it enters the obstacle- and with the flip of a switch can be turned off.

I don't know if it's a Defender- It seems to have not lived up to it's reputation as a simple and true 4x4 that prioritizes ability over comfort. The changes to the Wrangler and the G-Wagon have been evolutions- improvements to head into the future, while keeping a foot in the past- this is a revolution- a complete departure from the original- that's not just "different" that's polarizing and I think you see that in the comments and in the reactions.

1. The "stick in the sand" remark literally refers to the actual origins of what was renamed the Defender in the 1980s. It's only polarizing to people who wanted the old Defender but couldn't have it. The sepia image of a simple off-roader that was drafty and loud and rusted out at the corners died decades ago, we just didn't get to go to the funeral.

2. The Defender has TC *and* available user-controlled lockers. The Disco has an automatic locking center diff, and an available user-controlled rear locker. Lockers are required for perhaps 1% of off-road situations, but those who want to take it to the limit will buy them. OBTW, the Jeep Wrangler also has traction control and lockers, same as the Defender and the Discovery. Because it needed TC to maintain its image as a go-anywhere rig, and people thought Jeep Wranglers were supposed to be good in snow and sand and mud and all sorts of places. To say that TC alone is inferior to lockers in every situation ignores reality and is demonstrably false - but you refuse to acknowledge it, and is moot anyway because the Defender will be equipped with both on vehicles that buyers intend to use at their limit.

3. FIS is not less capable than solid axles in every off road situation other than flat gravel or fast, undulating terrain. Like #2, you can deny this if you like, but you ignore facts to do so.

4. You should probably lie down for this. Are you comfortable, and in your safe place? Good. Because Jeep Wranglers have had computers in them since the early 1990s. They're practically rolling data centers now, just like every other car on the road. Land Rover is just telling you how many they have in the Defender. Just as in the Jeep, many are doing simple tasks like monitoring for crashes so they can trigger the airbags, checking the exhaust so they can adjust the mixture, evaluating wheel slip on braking to modulate anti-lock brakes, evaluating cam position, monitoring steering angle and throttle input, and there are at least two for the infotainment and probably two or three for the climate control. With the modern CANBUS technology, which nearly every vehicle besides Tesla uses (Tesla may use CANBUS for some things, I don't know), you can have many, small, simple computers doing a few tasks very reliably rather than one big computer trying to do everything. This is 80 years of computer science and computer engineering applied, and it's called a Service Oriented Architecture. As to Land Rover's infamous electrical issues of decades past, Lucas Electric doesn't make LR electronics any more - LR buys their computers from the same suppliers as everyone else - Bosch, ZF, TRW, etc. Even the Mahindra Roxor has an ECU and a computer for the optional automatic transmission.

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[DieselRanger]

What problem...what business need does the Defender solve?

If you want the most capable out of the box 4x4 sold in the US you buy the Wrangler Rubicon...
if you are most anywhere else in the world you buy a Land Cruiser or Prado

If reliability is more important and you just need something capable enough in the US you buy a Land Cruiser 200

If you want a luxurious SUV that's capable enough off-road in the US you can buy a Lexus GX or a Ford Expedition Platinum FX4
If you are most anywhere else in the world you can buy a Patrol

It's not as off-road capable as a Wrangler, it's doubtful it will be as rugged/reliable/durable as a LC 200 and it won't be any more luxurious than about a dozen other offerings already on the market....Other than trading on the former glory of an old name, what does it add?

It steps in line with a string of other SUVs that are basically the same version of each other- will it be capable enough? I'm sure it will, for what it is. But more than what's already out there? No. It will be about as capable as all of the other IFS Luxury condos on wheels. Will it be reliable? Time will tell, but history isn't favorable and there are a lot of years of proven reliable history for LR to catch up with the Toyota's of the world. Will it be more luxurious than the Lexus/Infinity/Ford Platinum SUVs- it'll be about the same.

I think the Defender's greatest failing is that it's really not that different, not that extraordinary...it's not above and it's not beyond as their advertisements in the US say.

Maybe I don't want a Land Cruiser for $90k+ after tax and title that I can only select the color on and maybe buy some floor mats or some locking wheel lugs. Lexus GX's are hideous and overpriced for what they offer (computers? Lousy with em...).

I don't want a Wrangler because they fall apart (but they're field repairable!), they're uncomfortable to drive, they're maintenance nightmares (but user serviceable! Except for all the computers....), and my family would not enjoy one, and that's important to me.

Ford Expeditions are enormous and not suitable to many off-road situations because they are not maneuverable. If you are driving, say, from Marble into the Geneva Lakes Trailhead, you can't, without making several multi-point turns on the switchbacks and hanging a wheel off the trail in the process, especially in mud and rain with the diffs locked. Ask me how I know. My Disco? No problem, same situation. It's a Sunday drive. Not a wheel out of place. You want to drive an Expedition across Nevada on dirt, cool, but about a quarter of your cargo by weight will be fuel.

I'm not anywhere else in the world, and I'm not sure I'd want any Nissan product anyway.

I can afford a Defender, and will probably get one eventually. Once I'm done with my Disco, which may be a while, especially now that the aftermarket has brought trail armor and 18" wheels to market.

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[DorB]

Ok, so your argument is based solely on looks then. Got it.

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You got it all wrong..
It’s about functionality and simplicity.





Slowly..

 

[soflorovers]

While everyone is blaming Brexit for a significant decline in demand, the reality is that the auto industry is in turmoil and consolidation is the broad based discussion. Global debt is at large levels and economies are entering recession. The EU is already there and attempting negative interest rates. The mandated move to EV's is disrupting many manufacturers and consumers, JLR being one of them. The new Luxury Defender is introduced with a 2.0L engine while the only other option is a very expensive high-tech $12K adder with an unproven track record. Welcome to the 70's.

The USA will eventually get one of the two EU diesels, it just won't be available at launch. Personally, I'd spring for the diesel. The Defender isn't a sports car, there's no reason to avoid it. I'd personally go for a diesel D5 also.

 

[mpinco]

Technically, JLR is blaming Brexit for supply chain disruptions.

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JLR marketing is blaming Brexit but the reality is JIT is a coordinated dance of many suppliers that needs to be tightly managed as sales increase or decrease. Sales are down as consumers take a wait-n-see approach and products are in flux. What was the stories lately that JLR was introducing 30 new models? That's a lot of supply chain disruption and in addition JLR doesn't have the data to say where demand is going. Going to be some interesting times for the entire auto industry. Brexit is just one factor of many.

 

[mpinco]

The USA will eventually get one of the two EU diesels, it just won't be available at launch. Personally, I'd spring for the diesel. The Defender isn't a sports car, there's no reason to avoid it. I'd personally go for a diesel D5 also.

I too would be in the market for a diesel. The D5 is more attractive now given the Luxury Defender powertrains but not attractive enough to move from a LR4. I'm on the sidelines for now, something JLR doesn't need as financial issues mount.