2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[DieselRanger]

The Porsche argument is not valid. The 911 was unmistakably a 911, even after it got water cooling. It's still unmistakably a 911. My wife can spot them and she knows nothing about cars.

Yes, that's the "looks" thing.

What we have here is akin to changing the name of the Panamera to 911. Can you imagine the uproar?

No, not at all. Every single thing Porsche has done to the 911, Land Rover has done the equivalent in the Defender. They have injected technology, changed the basic way it functions, added features that "purists" didn't want - they only thing that's the same - roughly - is the silhouette. And everyone loves them, because they're better for it. I predict the Defender will ultimately live up to its hallowed name and then some.

The C8 is not a true Corvette either. It's just Chevy being lazy. It's a fantastic car, but it's a completely different car from the 60 years of front engine rear drive setup that had a certain look, feel, and driving characteristics. I'm glad they are pushing the envelope and we have this car as an option, but it's no Corvette.

Just slapping a name on it does not make it. There are intrinsic qualities that just make 'it'....especially after 40-50 years of legacy. IFS or no IFS.

I rest my case. The fundamental argument is whether Land Rover has "just slapped a name on it".

It's just sad/confusing/disappointing that they went this way with such a golden opportunity to go at the other brands/names that have stayed true to roots....70 series, Gwag, Wrangler, hopefully the new Bronco. They entered a saturated market just as the market is shifting. Weird. Its just more of the same, more or less.

That's your opinion - you don't have to buy one, you have all those other choices if what you want is more of the same thing that's been done for 20+ years. And the market is continuing to shift directly where Land Rover has been for two decades in the US - luxury SUVs, with emphasis on U. You may not believe the sales figures, but they are what they are. Land Rover just happens to make luxury SUVs that go off road very very well, and they don't make very many of them per year comparatively speaking, so they're more rare than others. I personally like it that way.

 

[DieselRanger]

There are high expectations for the Luxury Defender and dealers are attempting to price it accordingly. Nothing has been delivered and no revenue has been received so it is a "hope" on the mark-up over MSRP.

That's temporary, purely on the dealers (not JLR), and will only last as long as the first few roll off the lot, same as with any new, desirable vehicle. As we all know, good sense and deep pockets are often mutually exclusive. Those who can be patient and don't need to be seen as the first at their club to own one will wait or shop around and spend no more than MSRP.

 

[Pilat]

I can't help but think that the first Range Rover - a luxury SUV before the "SUV" monicker was invented was unveiled in 1970. If anyone have a right to be in that market, it is Land Rover. Sort of like how Volvo basically invented (or at least defined) the Estate car.

Also, I can't see how they should avoid using tech (incl. metallurgy, FIS, etc.) just to stay "traditional" when modern tech (incl. those things mentioned and more) will make for a more capable off-roader in anything outside the extreme rock crawling/modification scene.

 

[mpinco]

I fully realize that technology is more than CPU's. Also understand that manufacturers all use the common subset of suppliers to provide parts. While the design can be different I would think the underlying manufacturing technologies are very similar.

My point was that technology is increasingly less likely to be a differentiator that will generate a sale, In the end it comes down to differentiating from the herd, the overall industry. Russian dolls look all the same and provide no incentive to select one model over the other. Style wise the Luxury Defender was a step in the right direction but technology and limited power train options may become an issue.

 

[Christian P.]

Hey again, it could be worst...have you guys heard about the new Toyota Supra? It is a BMW underneath...like everywhere... talk about a shock for the purists.

Can you image if Land Rover had put a BMW or Ford engine in its Defender? This thread would have like 500 pages by now.

Why I Actually Prefer The BMW Z4 To The 2020 Toyota Supra

Toyota says the 2020 Supra feels different to drive than its mechanical twin, the 2020 BMW Z4 M40i. Actually, since the start, both carmakers have been hammering about how distinguished each car is, telling us they went off their own separate ways once the shared architecture was laid out.

jalopnik.com

 

[Pilat]

I fully realize that technology is more than CPU's. Also understand that manufacturers all use the common subset of suppliers to provide parts. While the design can be different I would think the underlying manufacturing technologies are very similar.

By that argument, a Ferrari is like a Raptor is like a Volvo is like a Kia, is like a modern double-decker bus.
Surely, you are not trying to argue such nonsense?

My point was that technology is increasingly less likely to be a differentiator that will generate a sale

And my argument is that you argue that "tech" is merely a differentiator, not of any actual use, and that tech is solely about CPUs and computer screens. There's a reason I brought up my leg, metallurgy and other stuff. There are benefits to technology (including CPUs, but not limited to that).

 

[REDROVER]

How long do U think it will take for us to see new wanna be defender at LA Craigslist with 90% depreciated price tag ?
I would say by the time iPhone 13 comes out .

 

[mpinco]

Hey again, it could be worst...have you guys heard about the new Toyota Supra? It is a BMW underneath...like everywhere... talk about a shock for the purists.

Can you image if Land Rover had put a BMW or Ford engine in its Defender? This thread would have like 500 pages by now.

Ah, BMW powertrain in a Defender is the long term plan.

 

[REDROVER]

Ford engine and transmission is what saved lr3 and lr4 from going bankrupt. And the only reason they last over 200k miles,
Bmw engine was disaster.

 

[Pilat]

Hey again, it could be worst...have you guys heard about the new Toyota Supra? It is a BMW underneath...like everywhere... talk about a shock for the purists.

Can you image if Land Rover had put a BMW or Ford engine in its Defender? This thread would have like 500 pages by now.

Why I Actually Prefer The BMW Z4 To The 2020 Toyota Supra

Toyota says the 2020 Supra feels different to drive than its mechanical twin, the 2020 BMW Z4 M40i. Actually, since the start, both carmakers have been hammering about how distinguished each car is, telling us they went off their own separate ways once the shared architecture was laid out.

jalopnik.com

I'd have no problems with that, to be honest. Morgan uses the same drive train in their new Plus 6 as BMW does in their Z4 and Toyota in their Supra. And Morgan aren't exactly cutting edge by any means. Before that, in their Plus 8, they used obsolete BMW V8 engines from the X5, IIRC. If anything, I'd be less wary with this new one than the old one, and since the drive train is the same in several models, there's a bigger chance that someone could help you if things got bad.

In any case, if I do buy a Defender, it will be a diesel - because it is available here. No prices yet, though (Denmark).

 

[Pilat]

Ford engine and transmission is what saved lr3 and lr4 from going bankrupt.

Because it was the cheapest drivetrain available?

 

[REDROVER]

And the most reliable engine ever used in any Land Rover vehicle,
It was redesigned crown Victoria engine used on cop cars.

 

[Colin Hughes]

Ford engine and transmission is what saved lr3 and lr4 from going bankrupt. And the only reason they last over 200k miles,
Bmw engine was disaster.

Wasn't the LR3 a 4.4 V8 Jag engine? The 6 cyl was a Ford engine.

 

[Colin Hughes]

How long do U think it will take for us to see new wanna be defender at LA Craigslist with 90% depreciated price tag ?
I would say by the time iPhone 13 comes out .

2 years! That would be awesome! I'll start saving now

 

[Pilat]

Wow, you edited the hell out of that post.