2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[REDROVER]

H1 and the humvee come out from the same assembly line
100% same drivetrain
100% same body, frame and everything else, only electrical is 24 v and 12 v different.

Same goes with military defender vs diesel defender, almost identical.

For the new defender to be military grade it has to change completely, older defender needed just modifications.

 

[Christian P.]

H1 and the humvee come out from the same assembly line
100% same drivetrain
100% same body, frame and everything else, only electrical is 24 v and 12 v different.

Same goes with military defender vs diesel defender, almost identical.

For the new defender to be military grade it has to change completely, older defender needed just modifications.

@REDROVER

I think you have made your position clear. No need to keep rehashing this.

And this goes for others too. I really don't want to lock this thread.

 

[givemethewillys]

Why would you lock a thread that people are having a lively (yet circular) discussion about? Nobody is insulting anyone, nobody is using profanity. I'm not one bit interested in the defender after seeing the reveal, but I keep coming back to this thread to eat some popcorn and enjoy the banter. And, I learned that pinzgaurs are super cool. And that the nissan patrol is now a minivan. This is all good stuff, dont lock it.

 

[REDROVER]

Fact checking is now offensive?
or you trying to lock this because some of us are not politically correct enough.
You are here posting your opinion as well what’s up with that.

 

[JeepColorado]

I think this article does a great job of capturing the range of opinions that have been expressed on this forum- some lines that stood out to me from the article-

"Die-hard fans of the all-conquering Land Rover Defender are hoping the new-generation vehicle coming next year won’t sacrifice ruggedness for luxury and comfort."

"Executives at the British automaker insist that the redesigned Defender will be its most capable off-road vehicle ever."

"Defender fans worry the focus on luxury and technology will push the price of some 2020 Defender trims to $70,000 and up. That would exclude serious off-roaders who expect the SUV to take a beating like the original did."

"One that bothers current Defender owners is dual radiators positioned low behind the front bumper, said Keenan Alexander, owner of a gray 1987 Defender 110 in Denver. Their location is in danger of being damaged by aggressive rock angles and limits owners’ ability to modify the front bumper."

"But while the 2020 Defender may adopt an impressive air suspension similar to that of a Land Rover Discovery tested by Trucks.com, the system is not foolproof. It limits wheel articulation. There are also a number of sensors that can fail, and the suspension airbags sometimes leak.

Defender purists would prefer solid axles instead of independent suspension."

"There is a vocal group of Defender purists who oppose the new direction. But every enthusiast interviewed by Trucks.com expressed excitement that the nameplate is returning. And some recognize that times have changed.

Jaguar Land Rover is pinning its hopes on the 2020 Land Rover Defender to give its finances a boost by appealing to a wide audience."

Land Rover Purists Skeptical of New-Generation 2020 Defender – LiftKits4Less Blog

Check out our latest blog of the Land Rover Purists Skeptical of New-Generation 2020 Defender from liftkits4less.com

liftkits4less.com

While I wouldn't have considered myself a "purist" I do find myself siding with that opinion, but after having watched much of this conversation I can say that I get it. LR needs to sell a lot of these and to do that they need to appeal to a very large market. Independent suspension and traction control etc...is probably the best way to do that. The Jeep Wrangler stands in stark contrast to that logic, but it's a unique vehicle with an incredibly passionate following. I'm happy to see LR put $ into Trek2020- I think that's a step in the right direction- while I'm not a fan of the direction they took with the Defender- I do think it's an interesting take on an iconic 4x4 and can't wait to see a head to head comparison between the Defender, the Wrangler, the Land Cruiser, the 4Runner and the G-Class. It's high times to be a fan of 4x4s regardless of which interpretation resonates with you the most!

 

[JeepColorado]

Having read through the replies...the good and the bad....I can also say I've definitely come to a deeper appreciation for the fact that these 2 vehicles are really just different philosophies for how to go about achieving something very similar. The more I read of comparisons between them I see that they are just very different approaches, but with the same goal, no doubt they go about it in very different ways- which means different compromises, different strengths/advantages and faults/weaknesses.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/10/2020-land-rover-defender-jeep-wrangler-specs-comparo/

 

[Todd780]

This is the new 2020 Nissan Patrol. Yes, Patrol. As in this Nissan Patrol. Just as a reference...so I think it could have been way worst...

I actually don't mind the Armada. BOF, Solid rear axle... Just too bad the Armada doesn't get the same off road equipment that the Patrol does.
(That being said, I prefer the existing front end to this one)

 

[mpinco]

Moving the new Defender up to the luxury segment opens doors for others.

 

[soflorovers]

H1 and the humvee come out from the same assembly line
100% same drivetrain
100% same body, frame and everything else, only electrical is 24 v and 12 v different.

Same goes with military defender vs diesel defender, almost identical.

For the new defender to be military grade it has to change completely, older defender needed just modifications.

I appreciate the points you're making, but I believe we've strayed a little off topic. See my post on P.129 of my LR3. I want to ask again, what makes you think that the new Defender will not be as capable, if not more capable, than my current LR3? I use that truck as a reference point because it's a great example of what can be achieved with modifications to a rig with independent air suspension. Is the new Defender as easy to modify to accomodate a 40 inch tire? No. However, I think it's a solid base for someone to stuff a 35-37'' tire under with fender liner trimming. Since when has that size tire not been sufficient for an overland vehicle with a completely flat underbelly?

 

[soflorovers]

So, this comparison misses the mark in several key ways and always has. When you compare a race specific vehicle meant for 1 time use prioritizing speed over anything else to a vehicle meant to drive 100,000 miles or more over several years you are comparing apples to oranges.

A King of the Hammers rock racing buggy is so completely different than something meant to take the family into the backwoods it's absurd to compare them- you might as well try to draw conclusions from a NASCAR and apply them to a family sedan. If the only thing you care about it is running over aggressive terrain at 100+ MPH and then you plan on completely tearing down and rebuilding the vehicle, then sure, compare away. However, if you plan on using the vehicle in the way the vast majority of consumers of a mainstream product would- then your comparison falls completely flat.

Solid axles, lockers, body on frame beats Independent suspension in ever single type of off-road situation outside of running fast over wash-board roads- Ford Raptor style- solid axles keep both wheels pushed down, they allow for more articulation (which matters in every off-road situation outside of a flat surface, not just rock crawling) and an axle locked will always maintain momentum rather than waiting for a computer to receive a signal to be relayed back to a wheel to then engage. (take a look at any LR product overcoming obstacles and you will see the herky-jerky style as the computer tries to figure it out) The locker just keeps moving smoothly and effortlessly.

The military example is equally ridiculous- having spent years in service to include combat- the military uses these vehicles for rapid approach- so of course they prioritize speed- that's the point- if you want to blast across the desert by all means- get IFS- if you want an all-around platform that outshines in every scenario and is more durable over time- go with something that's withstood decades of use.

"However, if you plan on using the vehicle in the way the vast majority of consumers of a mainstream product would- then your comparison falls completely flat." One could argue, and I would, that your argument is flawed. The vast majority of consumers will not be using their overland vehicles to go extreme rock crawling. In fact, the majority of the time will be spent on pavement. However, if you insist on rock crawling in your camping rig, how much more extreme are you going than the below photo? Independent suspension and larger tires are plenty for 99% of people. If you're part of the 1%, then you're going to need a purpose built machine with a much smaller footprint than anything built with a solid axle today anyways.

 

[JeepColorado]

"However, if you plan on using the vehicle in the way the vast majority of consumers of a mainstream product would- then your comparison falls completely flat." One could argue, and I would, that your argument is flawed. The vast majority of consumers will not be using their overland vehicles to go extreme rock crawling. In fact, the majority of the time will be spent on pavement. However, if you insist on rock crawling in your camping rig, how much more extreme are you going than the below photo? Independent suspension and larger tires are plenty for 99% of people. If you're part of the 1%, then you're going to need a purpose built machine with a much smaller footprint than anything built with a solid axle today anyways.

View attachment 541106

As I stated in the post you quoted and have stated numerous other times on this forum- I'm not talking specifically about rock crawling. Solid axles, body on frame and lockers have better traction, more articulation and are more durable in every single off-road situation outside of running high speeds across the desert. Yes, that includes rock-crawling, but the benefits are not exclusive to rock-crawling. Traction matters in mud, wet grass, snow and articulation matters in ruts in an open field without a single rock in sight.

Cool picture btw; looks like a great setup!

 

[Pilat]

As I stated in the post you quoted and have stated numerous other times on this forum- I'm not talking specifically about rock crawling. Solid axles, body on frame and lockers have better traction, more articulation and are more durable in every single off-road situation outside of running high speeds across the desert. Yes, that includes rock-crawling, but the benefits are not exclusive to rock-crawling. Traction matters in mud, wet grass, snow and articulation matters in ruts in an open field without a single rock in sight.

They do not have better traction at anything above crawling speeds. If they had better traction regardless of speed, no road car, and certainly not any race car would have independent suspension.
If you have trouble picturing this, then think of it as more weight to push down after a bump (even small ones). Also look at cornering - and yes, there are always bumbs in corners as well.
You may say that it's not about rock-crawling, yet you keep arguing the benefits - that only apply to rock crawling and rock crawling speeds.

 

[givemethewillys]

I want to ask again, what makes you think that the new Defender will not be as capable, if not more capable, than my current LR3?

I dont think anyone is really arguing that it won't be capable. They're arguing, "is it a defender". It doesnt meet the criteria. Removable top, body on frame, solid axle, simple and rugged.

The references to the jeep wrangler are very relevant because those critical design elements are first and foremost in the design of the wrangler. Case in point, a hemi is a highly desirable engine for the wrangler, but FCA can't have it as an option without changing the look and feel of what a wrangler "is", even though the engine fits nicely in the bay. They'd have to make changes that would alter the original design features of the jeep to make it work.

On another side note, that sunroof thing is useless to me as a "removable top". When I ride around in my willys, I always have a bikini top on at the very least, because who wants the sun beaming down on you. Sides and doors off makes for a great open air experience. Top off makes for a sunburn.

 

[Todd780]

I dont think anyone is really arguing that it won't be capable. They're arguing, "is it a defender". It doesnt meet the criteria. Removable top, body on frame, solid axle, simple and rugged.

Exactly.

And to me, they could have done a better job retaining the 'feel' of a Defender as well. The front end doesn't say 'Land Rover Defender' to me. I think the examples below demonstrate you can update a heritage or classic design while still paying homage to the original.







These examples are all easily identifiable as modern remakes of classic designs.

This to me doesn't come through the same way:


Again. I don't belive it's a bad vehicle. But, there is already an Evoque, Discovery Sport, Discovery, Range Rover sport..... etc... Did they need another unibody IFS / IRS vehicle?

 

[rlynch356]

For a week i have been trying to place the front of the New Defender - it was so familiar...

Best i can come up with - due to the eyes...

but really that's the corporate look and matches the other vehicles in the lineup.

Anyway, the new defender is a different animal completely than the old - now "Classic" Defenders, and will appeal to a totally different consumer. Its an apples to Pop-Tarts comparison, so basically pointless.

They wanted to broaden the appeal of the brand, it might work, but given the hilarious FB comments everytime they post about the defender they might have missed the mark ...

I wish them luck, mostly so that they keep producing parts for the classic Defenders.


I think Jonathan is on to something here in his article (probably posted before in the thread, but oh well)... time will tell.