2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[JeepColorado]

Interesting article about the Defender and it's placement relative to the Discovery 5- he argues that the Defender's identify crisis makes the Discovery a better choice

The New Land Rover Defender’s Identity Crisis Sweetens The Discovery 5

Sometimes it’s hard to have an opinion, especially when you have to voice an opinion that your peers and friends will probably disown you for

www.carthrottle.com

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I will play “Devil’s Advocate“ on the “Is it a Defender?” Question while I take a 10 minute break from work.

I think the subjectivity of the criteria of ’what a Defender is” to be an interesting question. Most of what people cite as making a Defender a Defender are things like @givemethewillys mentioned (and many others in this thread have mentioned) — solid axles, ladder frame, etc. Sure the Defender had those features, but most 4x4s designed in the 1970s/1980s also had those features. Bronco, Wrangler, Defender, and I think even Chevy had a solid axle, convertible, ladder framed 4x4 back then (K5 Blazer, I think?). So, perhaps this is less a case of “that’s what makes a defender” and more “that’s how they made 4x4s 40 years ago?

Edit to clarify after reading JeepColorado’s article: There was a comment under the article that crystallized what I was trying to say a bit better.

The reason we like the features of the old Defender — like the ladder frame, solid axles, etc. — is because they performed better than IFS/Unibody rigs dId at the time. There are still a ton of old Defenders on the road — not a ton of unibody‘IFS/IRS 4x4s from the 1980s still on the roads today! And I think that’s true of modern vehicles in general — I’d put money that a ladder framed rig like a JK or JL, made today, will do far better, for far longer, than the majority of unibody IFS rigs on the road today. The majority of the modern Unibodies are not designed for off road, so the ladder frame/solid axle rigs have a clear advantage.

But if that’s old technology, and the new Unibody/IFS technology performs better than the ‘old tech’, then isn’t this new Defender concieveably very deserving of the title? If it performs off road, has a great payload, is reliable and rugged, does it not have more in common with the old Defender than it does different, as compared to other vehicles on the road today?

To use an analogy, is my iPad not a computer just because it doesn’t have a keyboard? It functions better than my laptop. It can do more stuff more reliably than any other computer I’ve ever owned. And if it’s not a computer because it doesn’t have a keyboard, but I use a Bluetooth keyboard for the same functionality, does it then become “Not a computer” because it’s not using vacuum tubes that I can easily change when one blows? I’m sure this question has been covered somewhere in the 132 pages of this thread but I’m curious to hear other’s thoughts now that there are more specs and info available.

And I honestly don’t care if they called it a Defender or something else. I’m keen on this thing because our hobby has one more option, and that’s never a bad thing. I’ve enjoyed learning from this discussion and do hope it continues!

(@givemethewillys, to be clear I am not pointing fingers or picking on what you said, just using your statement as an example to do a deeper dive into the tech and features and why it matters. If Chrysler told me the next Wrangler was going to be Unibody and iFS, I would raise an eyebrow with skepticism, and I’d let others buy it first to know how it was before diving in with my own money!)

 

[uzj100]

Great thread. Business idea - classic replacement defender lights and grill for the new defender. This is one of the best threads in sometime. I am on the side of I wish it was more like a wrangler however understand completely why it is not. I think they will sell quite a few especially to the rover people. Charging over list is complete nonsense. Fingers crossed they get the durability and reliability up to modern standards.

As far as back then - late 70s/early 80s had some great choices, chevy blazer, International scout, ford bronco, land rover series iii, toyota land cruiser, dodge ramcharger, then the G Wag came out in 79. Convertible, manual transmission, solid axles and basic/field repairable.

Many militaries are using G wagons and the 200 series Land Cruiser with armor is used by special operations overseas. The tried suburbans and that was a none starter, lasted less than 6 months in off road conditions.

Did someone say diff locks? ;<)

 

[soflorovers]

Great thread. Business idea - classic replacement defender lights and grill for the new defender. This is one of the best threads in sometime. I am on the side of I wish it was more like a wrangler however understand completely why it is not. I think they will sell quite a few especially to the rover people. Charging over list is complete nonsense. Fingers crossed they get the durability and reliability up to modern standards.

As far as back then - late 70s/early 80s had some great choices, chevy blazer, International scout, ford bronco, land rover series iii, toyota land cruiser, dodge ramcharger, then the G Wag came out in 79. Convertible, manual transmission, solid axles and basic/field repairable.

Many militaries are using G wagons and the 200 series Land Cruiser with armor is used by special operations overseas. The tried suburbans and that was a none starter, lasted less than 6 months in off road conditions.

Did someone say diff locks? ;<)

Shush. Don't give away my business idea! On a serious note, whoever manages to build a flush mounted Saudi-spec grill and new headlights for the new Defender will make a fortune.

 

[DieselRanger]

Let me enlighten you how military chooses a vehicle,
Category 1 durability, capability,
Category 2 Multipurpose platform and adaptation,
Category 3 fuel economy, dimensions and payload
Category 4 survivability, field repair and parts.

now you tell me what you know that we don’t ?
older defender met at least 70% of this category, your new defender won’t meet 3% of that.

I don't think you know anything about the way the Department of Defense procures anything.

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[REDROVER]

That was basic requirements,
if you know more go head tell us.

 

[DieselRanger]

I dont think anyone is really arguing that it won't be capable. They're arguing, "is it a defender". It doesnt meet the criteria. Removable top, body on frame, solid axle, simple and rugged.

The references to the jeep wrangler are very relevant because those critical design elements are first and foremost in the design of the wrangler. Case in point, a hemi is a highly desirable engine for the wrangler, but FCA can't have it as an option without changing the look and feel of what a wrangler "is", even though the engine fits nicely in the bay. They'd have to make changes that would alter the original design features of the jeep to make it work.

On another side note, that sunroof thing is useless to me as a "removable top". When I ride around in my willys, I always have a bikini top on at the very least, because who wants the sun beaming down on you. Sides and doors off makes for a great open air experience. Top off makes for a sunburn.

Nonsense, there are at least two people arguing that the Defender is nothing more than a soft-roader along the lines of the Honda CR-V and that it is singularly unsuited to do anything more than drive slowly down a gravel road lest its delicate suspension and monocoque chassis rattle to pieces.

There are crate Hemis you can get for the Wrangler, as well as bolt on superchargers. Lots of people buy those aftermarket bits for their Wranglers, but they don't make them any better. Jeep doesn't put them in because they have regulations to meet. As we have already discussed, they barely pass collision regulations in Europe and the US, and are now suffering severe quality issues related directly to their antiquated designs and the way they must be built as a result.

The new Defender meets the criteria for being named Defender in the same way as a mid-engined Corvette or a liquid-cooled Porsche 911 meet the criteria for those vehicles. Progress waits for no one, and to advance, changes have to be and were made. Not everyone will like it, which is fine...those people need not buy it. If they want a Jeep, they can buy a Jeep. If they want an old Defender, they can wait until one shows up on BAT and then try to buy it, or import one from Europe at a premium.



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[DorB]

A few years ago, the Ultra 4 Class was created and is known to have changed the game of KoH and produced the fastest KoH times every recorded and times decreasing each year giving credit to increases in off-road, trophy style suspension technology. All Ultra4 vehicles are IFS front, live axle rears until this year when GenRight revealed the full 4 x IFS Ultra4 Truck; the first 4 wheel independent suspension KoH truck. .

Really?..
Use KOH as an example why the new LR Creation is what exactly?

You can’t be serious.

Could as well combine it to a Hamvee.. or a tatra, that also have independent suspension.
The issue is not “does lend rover knows how to build a capable off-road trucks (yes..), rather “is it a Defender”?

And as for “did LR built a rock crawler, the original Defender( not this D5 hi breed..) has better articulation then a stock Jeep, and the 90’ is very capable in the rocks.





Slowly..

 

[catmann]

If anyone wants a NEW old Defender, there is one coming to auction very soon, although if your are in the US I don't think you can legally import it for another 20 years or so...

This Brand New 2016 Defender 90 Autobiography Or The Truly New 2020 Defender? | Carscoops

This 1 of 80 Defender Autobiography from 2016, is about to hit the auction block

www.carscoops.com

 

[grizzlyj]

Just as a heads up without comment, today UK news in the Daily Telegraph reporting all UK JLR plants will close for a week in November even if Brexit doesn't happen "Speaking at the opening of the company’s £500m engineering and design centre in Gaydon, Warwickshire, Ralf Speth, chief executive, said: “We cannot think about it, we just have to do it.
“We have to close – think about the process. We can’t switch it on and off, I need 10 million to 20 million parts a day and that means I have to make a commitment to my suppliers,” he said, adding that purchases of parts would be halted for the week.
“I have to have every part available and I have to have it just in time. If I don’t have a part, I don’t produce a car.”

 

[Storz]

Starting under 50k in the USA? If this is true, they have my attention. The Discos I owned (96 and a 02) were two of my favorite vehicles to date, I would love another LR in the driveway

 

[DieselRanger]

Really?..
Use KOH as an example why the new LR Creation is what exactly?

You can’t be serious.

Could as well combine it to a Hamvee.. or a tatra, that also have independent suspension.
The issue is not “does lend rover knows how to a capable off-road trucks (yes..), rather “is it a Defender”?

And as for “did LR built a rock crawler, the original Defender( not this D5 hi breed..) has better articulation then a stock Jeep, and the 90’ is very capable in the rocks.





Slowly..

Go back and read the comments. Or don't, actually, that will be days of your life you'll never get back.

TL;DR: The argument that a Defender is or is not a Defender is largely centered around the argument that FIS is or is not suitable for demanding off-road applications. An example in the "is suitable for" category is KOH rigs with FIS, which like any race car exemplify extremes in a given application - extremes in condition and extremes in engineering to match.

The Defender, as an off-road vehicle with FIS, is being argued as "not a Defender" because reasons, to include:
- It's too roundy, or something
- It's more expensive than a Jeep
- It's got "electronics" and "technology," as opposed to many levers and pedals and various kinds of mechanical things that can be repaired "in the field" when they inevitably break
- It has been constructed using mysterious wizardry called "metallurgy" and "FMEA" and "computers" that has resulted in a structure that prevents the body and the frame from being separated, or in fact even distinguishable from one another, rather than being designed with a stick scrawling in some beach sand
- It has fully independent suspension, with a sub-argument that it has airbags to control ride height, which some people have seen sometimes failing on old vehicles, rather than the same kind of suspension that Prairie Schooners and Surreys With A Fringe On Top and similar conveyances have used since Roman times.

Arguments that has no lockers have been soundly disproven.

Arguing that this Defender is not a Defender because it's very different is like arguing that a Porsche is not a Porsche because it uses coolant and no longer tries to kill its driver with snap oversteer, or that the Corvette is no longer a Corvette because the engine is behind the driver and you can no longer land a plane on the hood.



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[Blaise]

Arguing that this Defender is not a Defender because it's very different is like arguing that a Porsche is not a Porsche because it uses coolant and no longer tries to kill its driver with snap oversteer, or that the Corvette is no longer a Corvette because the engine is behind the driver and you can no longer land a plane on the hood.

You're right. Over and over.

But as we've proven over 100 pages, certainly people can't keep an open mind.

Thanks for making me consider a D5 btw!

 

[mpinco]

Just as a heads up without comment, today UK news in the Daily Telegraph reporting all UK JLR plants will close for a week in November even if Brexit doesn't happen "Speaking at the opening of the company’s £500m engineering and design centre in Gaydon, Warwickshire, Ralf Speth, chief executive, said: “We cannot think about it, we just have to do it.
“We have to close – think about the process. We can’t switch it on and off, I need 10 million to 20 million parts a day and that means I have to make a commitment to my suppliers,” he said, adding that purchases of parts would be halted for the week.
“I have to have every part available and I have to have it just in time. If I don’t have a part, I don’t produce a car.”

While everyone is blaming Brexit for a significant decline in demand, the reality is that the auto industry is in turmoil and consolidation is the broad based discussion. Global debt is at large levels and economies are entering recession. The EU is already there and attempting negative interest rates. The mandated move to EV's is disrupting many manufacturers and consumers, JLR being one of them. The new Luxury Defender is introduced with a 2.0L engine while the only other option is a very expensive high-tech $12K adder with an unproven track record. Welcome to the 70's.

 

[mpinco]

As production volumes decline JLR will need to figure out partnerships for supplier scale at lower cost.