67-79 F250 with modern engine swap is 15+ mpg possible?

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
I had 35's on my '76 F250 highboy...stock suspension.

That RC truck I posted...think it would be cool to build a "real" stock highboy ride height...but toss on some 40 or 42's, I "think" you can get away by installing some glass fenders and bedsides.

Are you seeing my vision? ;) :)

View attachment 230937

I still have my high school truck sitting back on the ranch in Idaho. It was a 78 shortbox 4x4 that I built way back when.....little lift, 35s, swapped a nice 390 in it, np435 manual, np205, etc. It was always a good truck.

I always liked that generation Ford. I would love to make a set of metal baja style fenders with the wheel opening extended up into the body line kinda like the 'big ole' bronco. The inner fender brace was REALLY high in these trucks. The only real issue with big tire and no lift with them is the forward cab mount tends to get in the way. You need to slide the axle forward a few inches to solve that issue....and not more it too far forward that you can't keep the grill and headlight assembly.

I'll just leave this here....

 

Clutch

<---Pass
I still have my high school truck sitting back on the ranch in Idaho. It was a 78 shortbox 4x4 that I built way back when.....little lift, 35s, swapped a nice 390 in it, np435 manual, np205, etc. It was always a good truck.

My dad bought the '76 F250 new...spent most of its' life as a construction truck..."retired" it from that, then I bought it from my dad...it went through a couple different paint jobs, a few engines a 360, 390...final engine was a police intercepter 428 mated to a C6...(always wanted a manual trans tho'). I blew that engine up...then decided to sell it to help fund my first Toyota...good lord I got a lot of ribbing for buying a Toyota back then (especially living in PA, lots of US pride back there)...Toyotas weren't that popular as they are now.

Saw the ol' F250 running around for a couple years...then saw it in a junk yard with the frame broken in half, it finally succumbed to rust.

I always liked that generation Ford. I would love to make a set of metal baja style fenders with the wheel opening extended up into the body line kinda like the 'big ole' bronco. The inner fender brace was REALLY high in these trucks. The only real issue with big tire and no lift with them is the forward cab mount tends to get in the way. You need to slide the axle forward a few inches to solve that issue....and not more it too far forward that you can't keep the grill and headlight assembly.

My vision has linked front and rear suspension, so you could push the axles out...just like that RC truck, but keeping the ride height low.... ;)

I'll just leave this here....



nice!

here is another...same truck? I can't tell if the front end is j-armed or beamed? I "think" it is beamed, by the way the shocks are more upright than the white one.

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This one is 2WD, cool none-the-less...

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Camper special converted to 4WD. Ahead of its' time if you think about it, Toyota Tundra has the rear axle pushed towards the rear.

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Metcalf

Expedition Leader
That camper special posted above is super nice. I have only seen one of those, still 2wd, in real life.

I really wish I could just fab full time.....so many ideas, so little time.
 
I know you're not interested in doing a diesel but I average 19.5 mpg in my OBS ford 7.3 Powerstroke. On highway i see 21, in big cities with lots of traffic i see 17 - 18. I travel from state to state for my occupation with 296,xxx miles on her and she purrs like a kitten down the highway. BTW its paired up with a ZF5 transmission (manual 5 speed) and its 4WD with manual locking hubs. I do run additive with my fuel but its not expensive. Just figured a little more info on some different options might help ya. Good luck on the build!
 

Sooper Camper

Adventurer
Cool thread, i'll just leave this here. This is my "beater" I got for $300 and mostly used parts from previous builds that got scrapped. It has a 460/4bbl, C6 and 35 spline D70. It's an F350 (from 73-79 F350 2wd were built on a 140" wheelbase, mainly to help with the massive slide-in houses that were en vogue at the time). Believe it or not, it gets around 12 mpg on the highway if you keep it cruising around 55-60. It also has more wheel travel than a Raptor :D
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These trucks are a lot lighter than you'd think, there is a lot less insulation and padding in the cab, and virtually no safety features. Not even collapsible steering columns usually. New trucks also have massively overbuilt fully boxed frames, old trucks are all C-channel and have about half the cross-members. My company owns a 2012 CCLB and 2014 CCSB Ram, both trucks are WAAAAY over 8000lbs empty, my truck is ~4500 with me and ~22 gallons of fuel, and its still rated for 9900lbs GVW....These old Ford trucks are tough as nails and don't have a lot of the major issues that the similar year GM and Dodge trucks have, and if you look under the front of a 2wd Super Duty, you'll see that not much has changed over the years. Beam Team FOR THE WIN!! One thing to look out for, the F350 frames were quite a bit beefier than the F250 frames, they have a much taller vertical profile, and its almost twice as tall as an F100/150 frame at the thickest point. The 2wd F350's also have the biggest brakes, cold forged plate radius arms, and 1" king pins. A lot of the pre-runner guys used to rob beams and arms from F350s because they are so heavy duty but still interchange with the lighter trucks. Also, a lot of the parts for the unique F350 bed are long out of production, including the rear gas tank and parts for that odd ball spare tire carrier.

You're on the right track with a modern engine, you would see 15 pretty easily with anything under 6 liters of displacement, overdrive and EFI in my experience (although tire choice and driving style still play a HUGE factor). The main question is how much of a load are you needing the truck for?
photo37.jpg

That's about 5000lbs of concrete, and the 460 didn't even care or heat up (it was over 90* that morning). There really is no replacement for displacement when it comes down to moving things down the road, those coffee can pistons can do some serious work especially at the lower end of the RPM range. They really do get 10-12 mpg loaded, unloaded, up or downhill, tail or head wind, running or not lol. It just comes down to priorities, do you want a big rattley school bus engines that wakes up everyone in a 4 block radius but can tow a house behind you, do you want a simple old carbed big block that can pass everything but a gas station and be rebuilt in a Napa parking lot, or do you want a modern EFI small block with half the displacement and twice the RPM range, along with all the modern wiring needed to make it work? The upside? Its a super simple, MASSIVE engine bay that will accept damn near anything. 4v53 2 stroke detroit? twin turbo 572 ford? 12/24v? yup, seen them all crammed into one.

And just to stir the pot, it has been my personal experience that most people are exaggerating about what fuel mileage their diesel gets; back to back test I've done with the same 6k lb crawler on a trailer behind both a 8.1L GMC (my dad's) and Duramax (my best bud's) 2500HD trucks revealed that the D-max got about 2 mpg better overall. Hardly worth the hassle of oil and coolant changes that take twice as much fluid, (generally) more expensive and harder to find fuel, lots of extra weight over the front end leading to decreased component life, and the more expensive maintenance/upfront costs of the diesel. The 8.1 truck averages 16-17 highway, and the D-max averages 19-20 highway empty. That same crawler on a trailer behind a tuned and straight piped 7.3 power stroke netted around 13 mpg; again, only about 2 better than the 8.1 GMC got towing the same setup. Interestingly enough, our 2014 Dodge towing a similar jeep on a trailer, only manages about 10-11 mpg with the fancy schmancy 6.7 Cummins (stick or auto, we have both and the mileage is the same). I'm generally of the notion that no matter how you are trying to move whatever it is you're moving, it'll take about the same amount of energy. Just pick which sound you like best and roll with it!
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Sooper Camper....awesome info thanks a ton man!

After reading Woofwagon's thread on Caddy vs Cummins....think I am settled on a 500 Caddy engine.

Weight wise: Plan on a Four Wheel Camper popup, and towing a 6X12 Enclosed trailer for the dirt bikes and gear.

The build is on the back burner for now, with the move to Idaho we ended up buying a house. So yawl know how that goes. :)
 

Sooper Camper

Adventurer
i know exactly how that goes...luckily this truck has more than paid for itself in terms of hauling lumber and scrap. Maybe I missed it, did you ever score a truck to start with?

one thing to keep in mind about the bed i have, the tire bulge kicks into the bed a very large amount. a Four Wheel Camper won't fit without some major surgery...i found that out last week and now i'm very sad and back to the drawing board...

Caddy 500 is an interesting idea, they are really sweet engines. I'd still take a 460 personally, but I'm a Ford guy, and thats a debate for another time. Lets just say I like oversquare, free revving engines...but Ford's bell housing habits and transmissions leave a lot to be desired. The E4OD is really your only realistic option behind a 460 if you want a 4 speed automatic overdrive in one unit. Other wise its C6 + Gear Vendor unit.
I've given a lot of thought to the 8100 Vortec as of late. They can be had dirt cheap with an Allison still attached, are no more complicated than a LS small block to transplant (uses similar ECU/harness), and they have a lot of the nice modern features like roller lifters. My dad's 02 GMC has about 200k on the clock and still purrs like a big fat kitten. EFI is nice, especially if you see a lot of elevation change in your typical trip. Carb's don't rea
 

Sooper Camper

Adventurer
i'll leave this here too:
F350 4x4 was only available 78-79 in the SC LB 133" wheelbase configuration, and only available with 400/351M V8. also keep in mind, the D60 front they came with is worth a TON to Jeepers and most trucks have either been worked into oblivion or parted out to sell the axle (i see them go for upwards of $1200 in rusty original blown out condition). 140" and 4x4 were never mixed from the factory, but the Highboy and 2wd F350 used a nearly identical frame so the swap wasn't terribly hard to do. an F250 "snow fighter" is essentially an F350 with lighter rear springs.
F250 4x4 WAS available in SC or CC configuration, but no EC (conversion companies/individuals found ways around this), probably both bed lengths were available too. These ALL had a junk closed knuckle D60 from what i've researched.
F150 4x4 WAS available in EC LB and EC SB configurations, but are very, very rare, and used leaf springs (instead of the traditional coil spring/radius arm 1/2 ton setup)

in general, you don't want an axle from the early-mid 70's. you want the newer ones because they have open knuckle designs, and disc brakes (kinda depends on GVW options too).

there is an ABSURD amount of old information on these trucks/axles here:
http://www.fordification.com
http://77cj.littlekeylime.com/images/Dana60/Dana60axleshaftsFordother.gif
http://77cj.littlekeylime.com/images/Dana44axleshafts_Ford.gif
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/60_front/index.html

if you haven't gotten a truck yet, i would look for a 2wd truck then convert it to your liking. most of the front end design on them was garbage (short stiff leaf springs, tiny shackles, push pull steering etc), and you can do much better with a little fab work and more modern axles. feel free to PM me if you want more info, I've done a lot of research on all this and its kinda what I do for a living...
 

Clutch

<---Pass
i know exactly how that goes...luckily this truck has more than paid for itself in terms of hauling lumber and scrap. Maybe I missed it, did you ever score a truck to start with?

I did have line on a couple trucks, but things got really crazy busy with the move plus buying a house. So I decided to wait. Currently super busy with work and house projects. No way I want to deal with a project truck right now, and I simply don't have enough time to tinker with it. I'll give it a year to settle down and revisit it.

one thing to keep in mind about the bed i have, the tire bulge kicks into the bed a very large amount. a Four Wheel Camper won't fit without some major surgery...i found that out last week and now i'm very sad and back to the drawing board...

Bummer, I am not completely sold on FWC either...seems like a lot of systems to fail. I have all the camping gear anyways... Kicking around the idea something like a Callen topper, a cot, and cook on the tailgate...Keep It Simple Stupid. ;)

Caddy 500 is an interesting idea, they are really sweet engines. I'd still take a 460 personally, but I'm a Ford guy, and thats a debate for another time. Lets just say I like oversquare, free revving engines...but Ford's bell housing habits and transmissions leave a lot to be desired. The E4OD is really your only realistic option behind a 460 if you want a 4 speed automatic overdrive in one unit. Other wise its C6 + Gear Vendor unit.
I've given a lot of thought to the 8100 Vortec as of late. They can be had dirt cheap with an Allison still attached, are no more complicated than a LS small block to transplant (uses similar ECU/harness), and they have a lot of the nice modern features like roller lifters. My dad's 02 GMC has about 200k on the clock and still purrs like a big fat kitten. EFI is nice, especially if you see a lot of elevation change in your typical trip. Carb's don't rea

I am not too much of fanboy either way...though we always had Ford's growing up. Really want to stick with a manual trans, hate driving autos, my commuter is an auto and I can't stand it, that said... auto isn't ruled out...we rode our brains out on the dirt bike trails a couple weekends ago...I was so sore, had trouble pushing the clutch in on the Taco. Would be nice to sit back like a zombie and let the truck drive itself.

I like the NV4500 (it isn't perfect, I do like the throw over others, buddy of mine has a short shift kit in his K5 Blazer, really like that.)...sticking to GM power plant seems like the way to go. Learned that the Caddy engine only needs a few mods to make it work. That 8100 sounds decent too. If I decide to go with an auto, might as well stick with a Ford power plant. There is more than one way to skin a cat...

EFI for sure, between the temperature swings and the elevation changes here...don't want the hassle of a carb.

I don't know if I can hit the 15 mpg target though, want to run either a 35" or 37" tire. I ran 36" tires on my '76 F250 with a 390, was lucky to get 10 mpg out of it.

Decent article on mpg: http://performanceunlimited.com/projectmpg/projectmpg_4-part_magazine_series.pdf

Might be easier just in choosing a different platform.
 
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Sooper Camper

Adventurer
I ran 36" tires on my '76 F250 with a 390, was lucky to get 10 mpg out of it.
that's cause it was a 390. cool engine, but stone age 50's engineering and not the most efficient design from an air flow stand point...

i'd love a 4WC, and pretty set on it some day. but my current HOA wouldn't be too fond of me hacking one to bits in my driveway. Callens are nice, but getting hard to find since they went under. i've looked at a few in person and it wouldn't be hard at all to just fab one yourself...i just "discovered" these last night in my craigslisting...they go for under $500 on CL pretty frequently.
http://www.caravancamper.com

i think you're on the right track, if you are patient you can find these trucks super cheap. from what i've heard, you live in the right area to find crew cabs too. mine was $300. the kid, who i presume traded a bag of pot for it, who had it had no idea what the words "ignition timing" "vacuum leak" and "coolant" meant. it had a hard time firing and was undriveable when i bought it, so i pushed it onto my buddies trailer. replaced the carb spacer the next morning, topped up the coolant and put a new carb on and it was running pretty much tip top with a weekend of elbow grease, new plugs and grounds etc. the truck is a high GVW Federal truck, so no cats even though its a 77, AND it doesn't even need EGR so passing CA smog is really easy. i'm stuck in CA for a while, so I just waited till I found a truck with the 460 in it, it took me almost 7 years to find the right deal (my criteria were F350 140" wb, big block, under $1000).

not sure how hard you're planning on beating on the truck off road, but autos soak up a LOT of shock load over whoop de doos and the like. i love manuals, especially the newer ZF and NV ones, but you can't beat a torque converter for smoothing things out and making life easier on everything down stream. i am fully with you on the KISS mentality, you will be a lot happier in an older truck IMO. no one gives a second glance to anything newer than ~85 anymore, but if you're rolling in a burbly piece of old iron everyone's your best friend suddenly...they either want your help moving, or fixing/towing their broken car ;)
 

Clutch

<---Pass
I have looked at those carvan camper shells too, building my own "Callen" type wouldn't be that hard either. I go back and forth on a bed camper or a travel trailer. I had a Wildernest on the Taco for a couple years, it never failed...get it all setup, and then want to go run and do something. I am going to have to pull a trailer either way because of the bikes, would be nice to leave the travel trailer at base camp, that would free up the truck to incase we need to make a run.

I don't plan on beating on it too hard, that is what the bikes are for...but you know how that goes...we have had to fetch broken down bikes in some gnarly locales before. That is another thought of keeping the bed open too...fetching bikes and what not.

Probably the easiest and cheapest way to go is to find one with a 460 and simply run it.

Did major overhaul on the Taco this past spring, plus some renovations on the AZ house prepping it for a renter, and all the moving BS, the new house, which isn't so new, it was built in '48...the previous owners did some renovations, but I needed to do some work to it right off the bat, currently building some cabinets for work too (and other projects)....sooooo....pretty much fried on working on things. Not sure I want another project right this minute... Pretty burnt out. :)


Now being here, and getting a sampling of the high country...all I want to do is explore and ride single track. So dang busy right now...don't even know when I'll get a chance to head back out.

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Sooper Camper

Adventurer
sounds like we are on the same page, i just want to be able to do semi-extended back country trips mainly to get to the good mountain biking and camping spots. like you said, there is some benefit to being able to pack up and go too. i'm thinking i'll ultimately get a sturdy shell and put an RTT and roof rack on it. being able to go fast on dirt is key to me though, since i currently live in desert bro mecca...and there is actually a lot to explore out here in the winter when its cooler. you can't understate the importance of lightness for back country/off roading. i've taken my truck a lot of places with the 1 tire fire that even a diesel 4wd couldn't go. momentum is definitely your friend, and diesels just can't carry it without spending a fortune on shocks and reinforcement to the frame, axles etc. my buddies F100 prerunner with a healthy 460 goes literally anywhere you point it short of rock piles.

and just to whet your appetite...
http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/cto/4710019699.html

the deals are out there, took me all of 5 minutes to find that lol. if i had space, i'd be packing up to get that thing right now! alas, 1 junky old truck is all i currently have room for. i'm so lucky my truck functions as a work horse...i just tell my wife that for every major house project it helps out with, i get to do one major upgrade to make it better/safer...so far the house has been the bigger project too. after a year of being there we had to gut an entire bathroom and redo the driveway to replace rotted out sewer lines...
 

Clutch

<---Pass
From living in AZ for 20 years...oh yeah...know all too well about going fast. A little different here up in the mountains...there looks to be some good desert running too. Kinda shocked to see a couple prerunners running around here. Would like to at least link the front.

Thought of a Super Cab, but no suicide rear doors like on the late models. Main reason for the crew is so I can toss MX gear bags back there...my Taco extra cab doesn't open either...sucks struggling to toss gear back there. That and the occasional extra passenger(s)...'cause ya know everyone is gonna want a ride. ;)

This is pretty close to what I want to build. (when I get my second wind... ;) )

If you look close, the front is a linked solid axle....TTB would be cool, more money than what I want to toss at it though.

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