Another one bites the dust?

[Yorker]

Maybe both of you would find peace elsewhere. I know it would be more peaceful on this forum if you realized that nobody except you two seem to care what you drive or why. Go reread this thread to find that most of the people could care less about the points you two are trying to make and it has become tiresome.
Maybe you could PM each other and continue this entertaining banter?

The price of fuel must have people more crotchety than usual. Lets see more build and trip threads! This philosophical BS has gone on long enough and in enough threads already. Lock this down and let it drop off the board.

 

[Blair G]

Here's my take:
I care about both of their opinions and am very interested in what they drive and why. Actually, I have harbored feelings of extreme envy when confronted with images of their rigs. These are two people who have a misunderstanding about the other person's perspective, and maybe, just maybe, if we try to bridge this small gap we'll have fewer of these disagreements in the future.

I'm willing to bet they would get along fine out on the trail, over a nice bottle of wine, decanted into fine stemware over linen tablecloths...

I don't see anything that can't be talked about. Nobody seems to be brand- bashing or model-bashing, just discussing why they choose one over the other and explaining their position. A little heated, for sure, but hopefully that will cool.

I hear what you are saying. I was hoping we were past all this BS as we introduced some levity in to the thread to give it new direction. I hate to say it,but I think I need to figure out how to use the "ignore feature" for the first time.

Blair

 

[MuddyMudskipper]

The price of fuel must have people more crotchety than usual. Lets see more build and trip threads! This philosophical BS has gone on long enough and in enough threads already. Lock this down and let it drop off the board.

:iagree: :exclaim:

While opposite view points being expressed in a respectful manner is good, rehashes of the same type of argument is tiresome for me as I'm sure it is for other people. In recent times, in the Land Rover section there have been similar discussions in threads started by other folks, often heated, often emotional, but hardly different.

I don't see anything that can't be talked about. Nobody seems to be brand- bashing or model-bashing, just discussing why they choose one over the other and explaining their position. A little heated, for sure, but hopefully that will cool.

I can agree that there isn't anything that can't be talked about, but again, I see a lot of things that have ALREADY been talked about....to no end. The positions have been explained here, and in other threads, by many of the same people which seems to make all of this so ridiculous (again). The Land Rover section has become some hellish web version of Groundhog Day but not as funny.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I think the coilers with a transfercase are more capable than Series rigs out of the box, tyre size for tyre size once you remove the spoilers & such. And that they are at least as reliable with the same level of maintenance. I have pretty much always thought that.

Well, then why do you need to speak out about the vehicles and owners so often?

What I DO say is that Series Land Rovers have about as much in common with coiler Land Rovers (Defender body parts, & earlier diffs excluded) as they have in common with Xterras and Unimogs. Mechanical concerns are different, and they travel at different speeds so coiler owners often leave the Series rigs behind to travel by themselves.

Well, ok. But what is the reason for bringing this up? We know they're different. All vehicles change. How is an FJ80 the same as an FJ40? And a Taco is different from an Earth Roamer.

That's one of the interesting things about this website.

also maintain that with their level of complication it takes more work to keep a coiler maintained to the same level as a Series rig.

I can't really argue that point as I haven't owned it long enough. I do know that my modern cars are vastly easier to maintain than any of my older cars were.

It has become evident to me that you really don't know what my point of view is or you would not be distorting it so much.

I don't know anyone who has hard statistical maintenance data on Land Rover maintenance between 1951 and 2008. So my life experiences are all I have to go by. That's about 33 years of Land Rover ownership.

Well, maybe I don't. Maybe I'm misreading what you write. But I know I'm not the only one. Just seems many discussions in this forum get sidetracked with how leafers are better or different than coilers, and I really don't understand why it's even a point of discussion.

Maybe your right. There is a lot of harassment going on here. You seem to have been harassing me at most every thread. Maybe I would find more peace elsewhere.

I can't understand this comment. I've never said anything against you before. If you reread this thread, you'll notice on page 8 is the first time we come to conflict directly. I'm talking about the history of EFI and how people can be resistant to change. And then you quote me and make mention of a Defender having a crank sensor problem. Completely off-topic and a direct attack on coilers.

and therein lies the problem with your statment: you cant buy just a $100 dollar tool to give you insight as to why your system failure lights are on. it will only do one of many systems on the truck. and you cant buy a 500$ tool for a rover because its not a popular model built in high numbers. you cant even get a module for a high end scan tool like the ones built and sold by snap-on. and there is NO tool for any amount of money that will allow you to retune it to higher power or aftermarket specs.

Yes I can. For $170 I can get a system that will tell me any why the CEL is on, which can often be easily traced back to an exact failure point. Furthermore, said device can also output realtime continuous data streams for many of the engine's sensors and functions which helps in diagnostic.

The only place you really have a point is in the other computers.

If I get a SLABS ECU malfunction and the traction control fails... yeah, that sucks, but guess what, I'm not worse off than any other non-TC vehicle.

Transmission computer fails? No different than an old auto with cracked vacuum hoses or plugged trans oil passages, and you're not likely fixing that problem trailside either.

The only place you really have a point is the body control computer, and there is really only one failure mode likely to leave you stranded, and that is the no crank condition.

and there is NO tool for any amount of money that will allow you to retune it to higher power or aftermarket specs.

Retune? No. So just replace it with any number of affordable generic aftermarket engine management systems. It's little different than switching carbs in years past.

no one will be able to fix them without a $5000+ computer based tool. who will buy a tool thats worth more than the truck is? if the value is lower it will just prompt more people to trade them in and buy new; where the real money is to be made.

Yes you can. As I mentioned, $170 gets you a very useful tool. You'd never need to do more, save replacing the actual computer. Which are affordable since so many "young" vehicles are being sent to the scrapper because they're "unfixable."

When EFI was new, ECU's cost $1000's of dollar at the scrap yard. Now that everybody is used to them, and lots of vehicles are in the scrapper, they're worth $100 now.

Remember when airbags cost $1000's to replace? Now people are blowing them up on YouTube for fun because they're only worth $60.

the only way/reason that the discos and rrc and to a lesser extent p38s/mk3 will be able to survive as long as a series is because there are many more of them here in the states in junkyards and LR specific recyclers. the factory will definitly not build parts for them or support them as long. they have already closed the classic parts support network. how long did that last? a few years at most.

That's exactly the point I'm making. So many of them being scrapped or crashed makes the parts in plentiful supply. Parts are much more available for my Disco than for any leafer, just because there's more of them on the road getting junked.


OEM's are required by law to provide replacement parts for 14 years. As you have seen with the older vehicles, the aftermarket picks up after that. I have no doubt that the popularity of the newer vehicles, particularly overseas, will mean parts will continue to be available from specialist shops. Just as they are for leafers today.

this is expedition portal. this isnt discoweb or LRO, etc. or even a land rover based site. as a whole, the board could care less if the vehile was built in the us japan or europe. its a site based on vehicle dependent travel. TeriAnn would appear to have many many miles and years of overland travel experience under her belt perhaps it would be wise to listen to all parties with an open mind. a wise man once said " you learn a lot more by listening than talking"

I agree completely. I love seeing what she's done with her truck, and reading about travels. I just have a problem with the direction some of these conversations go, for no good reason. And that's what I'm questioning.

Being a young automotive engineer, I know a thing or two about modern vehicle design and maintenance. Perhaps the people who are fans of the older vehicles should listen to those of us with younger ones.

 

[Alaska Mike]

I'm hesitant to shut this one down. Every time we shut a thread down, another one pops up in its place. If the ongoing debate is disturbing to you, you have the ability to ignore the thread and concentrate on the build threads. I've seen some comments that I consider over the line, and I strongly warn all those involved to act like adults and tone down the accusations. Cool off. Re-read and edit before you post.

 

[kcowyo]

The Land Rover section has become some hellish web version of Groundhog Day but not as funny.

Word.
.
Too many people postulating over semantics. Give that dead horse a rest.
.

 

[Alaska Mike]

Word.
.
Too many people postulating over semantics. Give that dead horse a rest.
.

I think they agree more than they disagree.

For the record, I'm pretty miffed about gas prices too.

 

[Alaska Mike]

The Land Rover section has become some hellish web version of Groundhog Day but not as funny.

"Ned? Ned Ryerson?"

Sorry, that scene was stuck in my head as I drove to work today.

The way I look at it, if we don't reach some sort of understanding, some sort of detente on this issue, it's going to infect the other threads. Every time we close one thread, it pops up somewhere else. All it takes is one comment and everything boils back to the surface. Things that happened years ago or on another forum suddenly takes the attention from the build threads or the trip reports.

Get it out of your system, just be respectful of your host and the other participants.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Well, for what it's worth, I think I'm done.

I've seen enough now to understand why this schism exists and that it is in fact limited to only a couple of people and not the entire marque.

 

[FourByLand]

Maybe both of you would find peace elsewhere. I know it would be more peaceful on this forum if you realized that nobody except you two seem to care what you drive or why. Go reread this thread to find that most of the people could care less about the points you two are trying to make and it has become tiresome.
Maybe you could PM each other and continue this entertaining banter?

I think I love you... I am taken so it would never work!

 

[MuddyMudskipper]

Alaska Mike, I need some light reading since I have the power to not peruse this thread if it annoys me. Could you direct me to a "What Makes a 4Runner Expedition" thread? I'd like to see how the 4Runner guys discuss the virtues of the 1st gen removable top trucks vs. everything else and vice versa. I've often wondered how the Toyota Trekker, Trailblazer, and Wolverine trucks fit in since they are the coachbuilt predecessor to the 4Runner but not really 4Runners.

 

[Blair G]

I think I love you... I am taken so it would never work!

And the obvious fact theat you drive a Discovery.

Blair

 

[Alaska Mike]

Alaska Mike, I need some light reading since I have the power to not peruse this thread if it annoys me. Could you direct me to a "What Makes a 4Runner Expedition" thread? I'd like to see how the 4Runner guys discuss the virtues of the 1st gen removable top trucks vs. everything alse and vice versa. I've often wondered how the Toyota Trekker, Trailblazer, and Wolverine guys fit in since they are the coachbuilt predecessor to the 4Runner but not really 4Runners.

You make me giggle.
You think it's limited to Land Rovers? The Jeep world has had this for over 50 years. The flat-fender guys thought the round fender guys were inferior. The round headlight guys hated the square headlight guys. The body on chassis guys hated the unibody guys... every time the manufacturer changed designs or the ownership changed, another reason for conflict arose. Even when reliability and/or capability improved, somehow there was that new/old battle. I guess it's human nature.

Oh, and I've seen it in Toyota with the IFS vs solid axle guys.

 

[Blair G]

You make me giggle.
You think it's limited to Land Rovers? The Jeep world has had this for over 50 years. The flat-fender guys thought the round fender guys were inferior. The round headlight guys hated the square headlight guys. The body on chassis guys hated the unibody guys... every time the manufacturer changed designs or the ownership changed, another reason for conflict arose. Even when reliability and/or capability improved, somehow there was that new/old battle. I guess it's human nature.

Oh, and I've seen it in Toyota with the IFS vs solid axle guys.

It never happens in the Unimog world as we know we are superior.

 

[Alaska Mike]

There's what, 5 Unimog owners in the world? How heated could the arguments get, especially considering they're all deaf from highway driving.:shakin: