Axe or chainsaw?

[Schattenjager]

We've got the same problem here with the mountain pine beatle

If it's red it's dead... makes for a very fast burn.

MAN - that looks like most of Colorado I-70 corridor and even north to Winter Park - and beyond. When it goes, Colorado will be gone.

Yet another reason to have a chainsaw packed - you never know what may happen while your off the beaten path. Get stuck in a fire and, well... you get the idea.

 

[Offtrack]

The super cold is what gets that darn beetle. A forester told me that the best is when it starts to warm up a bit in the very early spring and then drops back very cold in the single digits or less. The Beetle has kind of a antifreeze in them the warm weather turns it back around and they kind of come back to life. Then the super cold hits and they can't react to it. Kills them. Not sure if that's the whole story but I do know the super cold is what is needed to take them out.

 

[john101477]

An old woodsman once said to me, "The only good tree is a stump"...:elkgrin:

There is a big difference between a lumber jack/ logging outfit and a woodsman. A woodsman believes in conservation and selective thinning. A costly process for many logging companies. Crane Mills out of Paskenta/ Corning Ca has been using selective thinning for 40+ years and replant more than what they harvest. The theory being that they can utilize the same property forever. Of course they own all the property the log which is a substantial portion of the western sacramento valley.

As for the choice of chain saw, axe, or other hand saw, you use the tool best suited to the task at hand. In most campgrounds, chain saws are frowned upon mainly due to noise and disturbing others. A short drive can usually remedy this if there is no downed wood available. Anyone that pays a camp host $5 for 5-6 pieces is crazy. If I am out in the middle of nowhere by myself the chain saw is for sure comming out. I carry a madaxe and shovel all the time, I carry a chainsaw when out in the woods or when I am cutting firewood.

 

[RR1]

There is a big difference between a lumber jack/ logging outfit and a woodsman. A woodsman believes in conservation and selective thinning. A costly process for many logging companies. Crane Mills out of Paskenta/ Corning Ca has been using selective thinning for 40+ years and replant more than what they harvest. The theory being that they can utilize the same property forever. Of course they own all the property the log which is a substantial portion of the western sacramento valley.
.

Hey good to know, we have clear cut in the past, tell you the truth I feel guilty about it now. Must be getting sensitive in my old age.

 

[Alchemyguy]

The super cold is what gets that darn beetle. A forester told me that the best is when it starts to warm up a bit in the very early spring and then drops back very cold in the single digits or less. The Beetle has kind of a antifreeze in them the warm weather turns it back around and they kind of come back to life. Then the super cold hits and they can't react to it. Kills them. Not sure if that's the whole story but I do know the super cold is what is needed to take them out.

They (forest management folks) look for a sustained (1 week) -30C or colder as a reliable killer of the mountain pine beetle. We didn't really get that this winter up here, so it's looking to be another year of controlled burns to head them off. They conducted a large one just outside of the Banff park boundary last year.

It's been demonstrated time and again that if you try to completely suppress wildfires (as was done in the national parks up here for decades), you end up with catastrophic fires when they happen. Deadfall accumulates and is perfect tinder. When a fire starts (whether through negligence or nature) it spreads quickly to the tree-tops and annihilates the trees, more or less sterilizing the earth for a few years.

If you burn every few years and/or clear the deadfall it doesn't tend to have the opportunity to get hot enough or reach the tree-tops and kill every single spruce/pine tree in the forest; they drop their cones (heat activated!) and new baby trees sprout. The forest recovers fairly quickly.

I'm not forest manager/firefighter guy, but that's my understanding.

The philosophical angle to all this is thus; Leave No Trace is great in areas that are well trafficked or where heavy impacts are easy to generate (OHV, for example *can* tear the land up if one doesn't use care), since the resources there are prone to destruction by sheer volume. It's nevertheless a product of urban romanticism and doesn't reflect the reality of most real wildland areas, especially if you're travelling in a non-motorized manner. Realistically, if I bring a chainsaw in to clear some deadfall for my fire, I'm probably doing more good than evil in the grand scheme of forest ecology. The LNT types that see nature as somehow distinct from humanity, who are largely urban professionals and not people who actually live or work close to the wild, don't seem to understand these sorts of relationships.

 

[Alchemyguy]

Ha! I didn't even weigh in on the topic at hand!

Nobody seems to have mentioned that axes and saws are two different tools for two different things, really. If you're not felling trees (which you probably aren't, standing deadwood not withstanding) then your axe is for splitting, a saw is for cutting your lengths. The big question is whether you need to be cutting and splitting big wood for your fire, or if smaller stuff is available. Wrist sized wood burns just as well and with less work.

We (4 strapping young-ish men and our elderly uncle) camped for a week (in the rain for a couple of days there) with a 24" axe and a bow saw. The lower limbs of mature spruce are usually dead and dry, so we cleared those for yards around our impromptu camp site. Wrist/forearm sized deadwood was sufficient for most of our fire and we took turns on the saw bucking it up. It was work, but it was hardly onerous. If we had a chainsaw it would have been faster and easier.

My verdict; Always an axe, chainsaw is a convenience unless the only wood is big wood.

 

[john101477]

The philosophical angle to all this is thus; Leave No Trace is great in areas that are well trafficked or where heavy impacts are easy to generate (OHV, for example *can* tear the land up if one doesn't use care), since the resources there are prone to destruction by sheer volume. It's nevertheless a product of urban romanticism and doesn't reflect the reality of most real wildland areas, especially if you're travelling in a non-motorized manner. Realistically, if I bring a chainsaw in to clear some deadfall for my fire, I'm probably doing more good than evil in the grand scheme of forest ecology. The LNT types that see nature as somehow distinct from humanity, who are largely urban professionals and not people who actually live or work close to the wild, don't seem to understand these sorts of relationships.

Well said. While I do not exactly share your thoughts on chain saw carry (i feel your being more responsible with a chainsaw), at least you have a firm grasp of the need to clear dead fall. Unfortunately if a very strong slow fire sets in to the forest floor as well as the tree tops that can take many years to heal. Many of the major fires we have had 10+ years ago are still fighting to come back. most of those areas are still closed to non NFS vehicles but foot traffic is usually ok. on the other hand some fires that just rip through leave a charred mess for a few years and the trees slowing come back. this re-growth usually leaves a mess of under brush and broad leaf that create ample fuel for a far worse fire. Controlled burns are only in control when the wind is doing what the fire crew wants, which is one reason that back fires fail so often.

 

[Alchemyguy]

Well said. While I do not exactly share your thoughts on chain saw carry (i feel your being more responsible with a chainsaw), at least you have a firm grasp of the need to clear dead fall. Unfortunately if a very strong slow fire sets in to the forest floor as well as the tree tops that can take many years to heal. Many of the major fires we have had 10+ years ago are still fighting to come back. most of those areas are still closed to non NFS vehicles but foot traffic is usually ok. on the other hand some fires that just rip through leave a charred mess for a few years and the trees slowing come back. this re-growth usually leaves a mess of under brush and broad leaf that create ample fuel for a far worse fire. Controlled burns are only in control when the wind is doing what the fire crew wants, which is one reason that back fires fail so often.

Well, my opinion that chainsaws are a convenience mostly come from my experience; I don't generally have to clear trails and am quite happy with fires that can be maintained with small wood and a bit of sweat. I've also been on horse trips where we carry a small chainsaw as well, and it's great especially if there's a tree across the trail.

I understand forest fires in a similar way; fires that have the opportunity to climb to the tree tops are dreadfully disastrous, while those that come through every few years don't leave enough behind to become huge; the deadfall and undergrowth is cleared (by fire) and does not accumulate. If this does not happen (because fires are actively prevented or haven't happened for a while) then people have to step in and clear the undergrowth/deadfall.

In the end, again getting philosophical, it's all about how your perception of nature. Is fire unnatural? Is it wrong for forests to burn? Is it actually reasonable to expect things to stay the way they are indefinately? I want to have nice places to play, but fire is part of the ecosystem and to try and deny it from a place forever is probably a futile battle.

 

[john101477]

Haha yeah change is inevitable. Fire is a natural way to renew area but unlike that way things worked say 200 years ago, there are many areas that man has prevented from burning that now would be destroyed for generations if a fire went through. IMO that is where controlled burns come in and a really wish more of that went on in california. Some of the major fire desasters we have had the last few years could easily have been prevented with a better system. In idaho they purposly set fires in the mountain areas partially to clear new groth and partially to create better elk habitat.

RR1 I totally missed your remark on clear cutting. Having been up in several small aircraft we often commented on the old practices. You can still tell where loggers clear cut 20-30 years ago. On the flip side of that some companies have been required to go back through NF land and replant. 5-6 year later they thin out some of the young trees and then 10 years after that they are to thin again.

 

[RU55ELL]

I'm bringing this one back up since it was the newest thread talking about saws. I was just reminded of my handy little saw that takes up a very small amount of space. You could carry this one in your glovebox or center console. I got it from Lowes and it has a 7" blade. I've had it for 4 years and it still cuts like a hot knife thru butter. It's made by Fiskars.

 

[109 Pretender]

Great post here!

I'm of the same opinion here - I use a bow saw and/or axe for the most part. But, I do carry a 16" Stihl sometimes if I'm taking a trail that is forested and might have fallen trees across it. (I'm lazy).

I support not bringing your own wood as that can and does spread diseases and might be against regulations depending on where you're camping.

I gotta say that the pic Tucson left is mighty impressive. That's a lot of firewood. Gotta love a guy who knows how to camp large!

Cutting and trying to burn green wood is an exercise in futility (even though I know someone(s) mis-intrepreted the OP). Just had to say it...

Lastly, I like mechanized tools a lot! Noise, smoke, and chain rattle as the chainsaw revs up just gets my blood to pumping (especially if someone else is doing it while I'm sleeping).:Wow1:
I still think dynamite should be allowed for clearing trails - something about the terrorist bill makes that idea maybe not so good???:sombrero:

 

[flippinover]

I was up in Steamboat Spring, CO. 2 weeks ago Elk hunting. Finding firewood was easy. Most of the lower Routt National forest is dead due to the pine beetle. Wall tent, wood stove and chainsaw That's how you spell comfort.

 

[Wyowanderer]

Both. I carry a 24" Stihl 036 and an Eastwing camp axe.
The Eastwing is really for splitting kindling.

You'd be suprised how tolerant folks can be of the noise when you bless them with a couple armloads of freshly cut wood. Better than a beer.

 

[camp'n_hunt]

Carry both

I carry both, the axe is for my buddy and i use the chain saw. You never can have too many weapons against those brain eating zombies!

 

[DarthBeaver]

I carry both, the axe is for my buddy and i use the chain saw. You never can have too many weapons against those brain eating zombies!

hahaha... "You need to get a gun and learn how to use it which leads me to my second rule, the double tap. In those moments when you're not sure that the undead are really dead-dead, don't get all stingy with your bullets, I mean one more clean shot to the head. You can avoid becoming a human happy meal. Woulda, shoulda, coulda." :wings: