Ozrockrat
Expedition Leader
If you have the room consider the Thetford Curve. You can get a base plate for it to make sure it stays in place. The only downside is the electric pump, another thing to fail.
Buying & Building a Medium Ambulance into an RV – The FAM-BULANCE
- Thread starter rlrenz
- Start date
If you have the room consider the Thetford Curve. You can get a base plate for it to make sure it stays in place. The only downside is the electric pump, another thing to fail.
rlrenz
Explorer
Eureka!
I've been searching for a Medic Master manual since my truck followed me home, and I finally tracked one down (only 2 years searching). The manual is for a 2003 medium truck-based unit (Freightliner M2), equipped with the VMUX digital control system. Even though I have conventional relay technology, the manual will still cover very much of my vehicle since the same electricians wired the conventional relay trucks, and the VMUX trucks - they even mounted the VMUX relay modules in the drop down curbside relay cabinet so the installation was as straightforward as possible for their electricians. As per the requirements of KKK-A-1822E, the manufacturer's wiring is continually marked with a wire number and use, and this manual shows the interconnections and the wire routing. It also includes the data on all the vehicle lighting, interior, exterior, and emergency. I have pages showing the wiring and numbers associated with each circuit and item.
The various vehicle and module systems are separately shown on color 17x22" pages.
Just reviewing this 2" thick binder briefly, I found the amount of Freon 134 that I would need for a total recharge of my system - the manual states that:
---For a Freightliner FL60, a single compressor system requires an additional 1#-8 Oz for the module – this equals a total for the truck and module of 4#-6 Oz.
---For a Freightliner FL60 with a dual compressor system, the module requires 2#-6 Oz of 134.
About a dozen pages or so of the manual cover the usage of the VMUX digital control system - if anyone wants me to scan them a copy, let me know and I'll email it to you. Likewise, if anyone needs specific info on a subsystem, let me know and I can get one of the data sheets copied.
Two Cents Worth:
Of all the information you could track down on your project ambulance, a copy of either the actual manual for your vehicle, or a comparable vehicle from the same manufacturer, is well worth trying for. Even if you're planning on a total rebuild, some electrical data might save you some headaches.
I've been searching for a Medic Master manual since my truck followed me home, and I finally tracked one down (only 2 years searching). The manual is for a 2003 medium truck-based unit (Freightliner M2), equipped with the VMUX digital control system. Even though I have conventional relay technology, the manual will still cover very much of my vehicle since the same electricians wired the conventional relay trucks, and the VMUX trucks - they even mounted the VMUX relay modules in the drop down curbside relay cabinet so the installation was as straightforward as possible for their electricians. As per the requirements of KKK-A-1822E, the manufacturer's wiring is continually marked with a wire number and use, and this manual shows the interconnections and the wire routing. It also includes the data on all the vehicle lighting, interior, exterior, and emergency. I have pages showing the wiring and numbers associated with each circuit and item.
The various vehicle and module systems are separately shown on color 17x22" pages.
Just reviewing this 2" thick binder briefly, I found the amount of Freon 134 that I would need for a total recharge of my system - the manual states that:
---For a Freightliner FL60, a single compressor system requires an additional 1#-8 Oz for the module – this equals a total for the truck and module of 4#-6 Oz.
---For a Freightliner FL60 with a dual compressor system, the module requires 2#-6 Oz of 134.
About a dozen pages or so of the manual cover the usage of the VMUX digital control system - if anyone wants me to scan them a copy, let me know and I'll email it to you. Likewise, if anyone needs specific info on a subsystem, let me know and I can get one of the data sheets copied.
Two Cents Worth:
Of all the information you could track down on your project ambulance, a copy of either the actual manual for your vehicle, or a comparable vehicle from the same manufacturer, is well worth trying for. Even if you're planning on a total rebuild, some electrical data might save you some headaches.
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rlrenz
Explorer
A 2-compressor system would mean that the truck cab AC is separate from the module AC, so the module would have a truck engine driven compressor, an underbody (or front-of-module) condenser, and the usual evaporator. It would be activated by the cab console HEAT/AC switch, and then by the dual thermostat calling for AC. There would be a fuse for the compressor clutch, the condenser fans (usually 2 each, 12"), and the evaporator blower. The unit would shut down for freeze-up, and high condenser pressure.
Unless the original buyer of the ambulance covered by this manual had two compressors, there probably wouldn't be anything specific to a 2-compressor system, but let me do some digging and I'll see what I can find. Since this was written for a VMUX system, I'll also do some digging into the relay logic they furnish for the VMUX nodes and see what they say as well.
Here's a few reasons why I'm glad I have normal relay logic instead of VMUX:
Unless the original buyer of the ambulance covered by this manual had two compressors, there probably wouldn't be anything specific to a 2-compressor system, but let me do some digging and I'll see what I can find. Since this was written for a VMUX system, I'll also do some digging into the relay logic they furnish for the VMUX nodes and see what they say as well.
Here's a few reasons why I'm glad I have normal relay logic instead of VMUX:
Ozrockrat
Expedition Leader
That description is totally correct except I don't think there is a thermostat in the box. That might be a big hint. I wonder where the thermostat was originally.
Also you mentioned getting a 110v compressor for your box AC. Any ideas on where to find them or what size compressor it is. I would consider changing mine across from engine driven to 110v and if we ever had people in the back while traveling to run the generator or use a separate inverter.
Also you mentioned getting a 110v compressor for your box AC. Any ideas on where to find them or what size compressor it is. I would consider changing mine across from engine driven to 110v and if we ever had people in the back while traveling to run the generator or use a separate inverter.
rlrenz
Explorer
Normally you'll find the thermostat mounted in the action area, near the light switches for the box. It's most often a dual thermostat manufactured by Hoseline so it switches from heating to cooling as needed. Hoseline still makes them, and any Hoseline dealer would probably have them - the cost is $60-70. I usually buy from Select Tech (http://www.fixmyambulance.com/HVAC-PARTS-s/1817.htm)
Dual thermostat:
My Action Area panel - note the Hoseline thermostat on the right
The compressor is a Tecumseh rotary compressor that's mounted in a very solid welded frame. It also has a separate 12 volt fan to cool the compressor. Hoseline uses a Tecumseh compressor, P/N RKA5512YXA. This compressor is rated at 12,000 BTUH with Freon 134a.
Any air conditioning system only has a few basic components that are required - a compressor, condenser, and evaporator, plus things like a thermostat, high pressure cutout, freeze-up cutout, and hoses. If you want to build a 120 volt system, you have two options on combining existing and 120 volt equipment - convert everything to 120 volt, or live with a combination.
An ambulance condenser and evaporator blower are 12 volt, and the thermostat is designed for low voltage. With the Hoseline 12/120 system, they use a 120 volt converter to supply the 12 volts for the evaporator, condenser, and controls. Though you could probably track down 120 volt substitutes for the 120 volt equipment, a simple $145 120/12 volt converter lets you save the existing equipment. Some off-the-shelf automotive plug in relays can handle the logic and switching.
I was able to track down most of the components I needed through ebay - it only took about 6 months. I am installing a modified Hoseline 12/120 system - I'm installing it as a separate system that doesn't interact with the existing 12 volt vehicle supplied system. This way, I always have AC available, and as you mentioned, the 120 volt system can be run on-the-road with a generator. The only GOTTCHA is that most vehicle-supplied ambulance systems are about 25-30,000 BTUH, while the 120 volt systems are about 12,000 BTUH, so it might be a little warmer in the module. If your ambulance is white (or the roof is white), that helps, plus you aren't trying to do triage on accident victims with the doors open. A normal RV air conditioner runs between about 11-15,000 BTUH, so 11,000 should do a pretty decent job.
Dual thermostat:
My Action Area panel - note the Hoseline thermostat on the right
The compressor is a Tecumseh rotary compressor that's mounted in a very solid welded frame. It also has a separate 12 volt fan to cool the compressor. Hoseline uses a Tecumseh compressor, P/N RKA5512YXA. This compressor is rated at 12,000 BTUH with Freon 134a.
Any air conditioning system only has a few basic components that are required - a compressor, condenser, and evaporator, plus things like a thermostat, high pressure cutout, freeze-up cutout, and hoses. If you want to build a 120 volt system, you have two options on combining existing and 120 volt equipment - convert everything to 120 volt, or live with a combination.
An ambulance condenser and evaporator blower are 12 volt, and the thermostat is designed for low voltage. With the Hoseline 12/120 system, they use a 120 volt converter to supply the 12 volts for the evaporator, condenser, and controls. Though you could probably track down 120 volt substitutes for the 120 volt equipment, a simple $145 120/12 volt converter lets you save the existing equipment. Some off-the-shelf automotive plug in relays can handle the logic and switching.
I was able to track down most of the components I needed through ebay - it only took about 6 months. I am installing a modified Hoseline 12/120 system - I'm installing it as a separate system that doesn't interact with the existing 12 volt vehicle supplied system. This way, I always have AC available, and as you mentioned, the 120 volt system can be run on-the-road with a generator. The only GOTTCHA is that most vehicle-supplied ambulance systems are about 25-30,000 BTUH, while the 120 volt systems are about 12,000 BTUH, so it might be a little warmer in the module. If your ambulance is white (or the roof is white), that helps, plus you aren't trying to do triage on accident victims with the doors open. A normal RV air conditioner runs between about 11-15,000 BTUH, so 11,000 should do a pretty decent job.
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rlrenz
Explorer
Today's topics for thoughts and discussions:
I'm thinking about water (fresh and gray) tanks, and I'm trying to get the most water I can into Compartment #1 (directly behind the driver).
First, should I have more storage for fresh water than gray, more for gray then fresh, or the same?
I've been searching through poly tank catalogs, and I can't find something that fits correctly -- too wide, too long, too short, too narrow. What are your thoughts about welding up aluminum tanks? I'd have to add a sight glass (nylon tubing) to the tanks, but would there be other problems?
I'm thinking about water (fresh and gray) tanks, and I'm trying to get the most water I can into Compartment #1 (directly behind the driver).
First, should I have more storage for fresh water than gray, more for gray then fresh, or the same?
I've been searching through poly tank catalogs, and I can't find something that fits correctly -- too wide, too long, too short, too narrow. What are your thoughts about welding up aluminum tanks? I'd have to add a sight glass (nylon tubing) to the tanks, but would there be other problems?
Ozrockrat
Expedition Leader
I would recommend 2x fresh to gray but the ratio depends on where you will be camping. I actually run 8 fresh to 1 gray as my camping is rarely at civilized facilities and I just use the gray as a surge tank for when I do. This will change when I install a shower.
Also I would not recommend aluminum for fresh water. It gets a tang to it fairly quickly. If you are thinking of doing it yourself investigate plastic welding. It is no more difficult that welding aluminum and you can make the most convoluted shape you like. Otherwise stainless would be the recommendation but it gets expensive quickly and you need a good grade.
If you go with aluminum consider a full flow filter on the discharge side to eliminate the taste and allow you to put "suspect" Flint Michigan water in your tank in a pinch.
I am looking at reworking my storage and using the same cabinet and like you I cannot find an off the shelf tank that does not waste a lot of space. The closest I found was using 2 vertical tanks and staggering one to fit the pump under. I did consider using one for a raw water and the other for filtered water and still may go that route.
Also I would not recommend aluminum for fresh water. It gets a tang to it fairly quickly. If you are thinking of doing it yourself investigate plastic welding. It is no more difficult that welding aluminum and you can make the most convoluted shape you like. Otherwise stainless would be the recommendation but it gets expensive quickly and you need a good grade.
If you go with aluminum consider a full flow filter on the discharge side to eliminate the taste and allow you to put "suspect" Flint Michigan water in your tank in a pinch.
I am looking at reworking my storage and using the same cabinet and like you I cannot find an off the shelf tank that does not waste a lot of space. The closest I found was using 2 vertical tanks and staggering one to fit the pump under. I did consider using one for a raw water and the other for filtered water and still may go that route.
rlrenz
Explorer
DRAT!
That was just what I had been suspecting. I'll skip the aluminum tanks and check out welded plastic. I think I'll check with a plastics fabricator I know near here, because it appears that none of the commercial suppliers have anything ready-to-go that fits ambulances very well.
I was thinking about two tanks (fresh and gray), located side by side. Now, I'll plan on the gray being shorter so I'll have room for the fresh water pump. The gray may also be narrower, which will let me widen the fresh.
That was just what I had been suspecting. I'll skip the aluminum tanks and check out welded plastic. I think I'll check with a plastics fabricator I know near here, because it appears that none of the commercial suppliers have anything ready-to-go that fits ambulances very well.
I was thinking about two tanks (fresh and gray), located side by side. Now, I'll plan on the gray being shorter so I'll have room for the fresh water pump. The gray may also be narrower, which will let me widen the fresh.
rlrenz
Explorer
I have been plowing through the Medic Master manual that I managed to track down. It's for a Medic Master on a Freightliner truck, with VMUX digital controls.
Is there any interest in getting copies of that data? I'm planning on taking the 8 1/2 x 11 pages to Office Max and getting them all scanned in at once, and I tracked down a service that can scan the 22x34" electrical drawings.
Let me know if there is anything you'd like, and I'll see what I can do.
Is there any interest in getting copies of that data? I'm planning on taking the 8 1/2 x 11 pages to Office Max and getting them all scanned in at once, and I tracked down a service that can scan the 22x34" electrical drawings.
Let me know if there is anything you'd like, and I'll see what I can do.
rlrenz
Explorer
I've been removing any white warning lights on the buggy and replacing them with amber. When I bought it from GEV, they replaced any red or blue with white so I wouldn't get in trouble driving home, but MN regulations get cranky about light colors. If I have amber lights, then I can be considered a "service vehicle".
Not cheap, though. New amber lenses for my Whelen Series 97 lights run $47 per each, but I figured they'd never get cheaper, and any on line source I checked with either didn't have any, or wanted $47. Blue and red are easy to find....
As I've been removing and reinstalling the fixtures and lenses, I've found that about 1 out of 6 of the 10-32 mounting screws have a stripped hole in the body - it appears that the problem comes from the original self-tapping 10-32 screws used by Medic Master. I finally decided to just install 10-32 Riv-Nuts in every hole (8 per fixture). Then, I chuck up a 10-32 tap in my drill and chase the threads before I assemble the light.
I'll wind up with six clear lenses in my parts bin, but that way, I have plenty of spares for my scene lights.....
Not cheap, though. New amber lenses for my Whelen Series 97 lights run $47 per each, but I figured they'd never get cheaper, and any on line source I checked with either didn't have any, or wanted $47. Blue and red are easy to find....
As I've been removing and reinstalling the fixtures and lenses, I've found that about 1 out of 6 of the 10-32 mounting screws have a stripped hole in the body - it appears that the problem comes from the original self-tapping 10-32 screws used by Medic Master. I finally decided to just install 10-32 Riv-Nuts in every hole (8 per fixture). Then, I chuck up a 10-32 tap in my drill and chase the threads before I assemble the light.
I'll wind up with six clear lenses in my parts bin, but that way, I have plenty of spares for my scene lights.....
rlrenz
Explorer
You're too late - I decided to get custom plastic tanks made instead. There's a plastics fabricator about 10 miles from me who quoted a price that's in line with the on-line tank dealers (the guys who don't have the right size...). A bit of Clorox periodically plus a good carbon filter will take care of my needs - I'm planning this water for everything except drinking - and I'll handle that with bottled water. When not in use, I'll drain the tanks and store them dry.
patoz
Expedition Leader
Bob, when I get to that point I may ask you for the name of the fabricator you're using for your tanks. Mine are probably going underneath between the frame rails, since I now have all of that room under there. I don't really need to worry about them freezing except every now and then, in which case I'll just make sure they are drained.
rlrenz
Explorer
Not a problem, Pat.
I've been debating building two tanks that sit one above the other, or two tanks that sit side-by-side. Right now, with custom fabrication, I'm leaning toward side-by-side. That would let me have a tank about 16" high by 20" long by 11" wide, which works out to 15 gallons. I could either make the gray water tank a little shorter and install the water pump in front of the gray water tank, or install the pump on a shelf on top of the tanks. This is still way up in the air.
Once I get the generator installed, then I can figure out the water system - the generator is what it is, and the water system will have to work around it. There may be a chance that the water pump can be installed in the generator compartment, but it's a small chance since the water system also will include a carbon filter that has to be accessible for service.
I'll build a shelf that sits just above the water tanks to support two Trojan golf cart batteries, a fire extinguisher or two, and maybe some more miscellaneous stuff.
I've been debating building two tanks that sit one above the other, or two tanks that sit side-by-side. Right now, with custom fabrication, I'm leaning toward side-by-side. That would let me have a tank about 16" high by 20" long by 11" wide, which works out to 15 gallons. I could either make the gray water tank a little shorter and install the water pump in front of the gray water tank, or install the pump on a shelf on top of the tanks. This is still way up in the air.
Once I get the generator installed, then I can figure out the water system - the generator is what it is, and the water system will have to work around it. There may be a chance that the water pump can be installed in the generator compartment, but it's a small chance since the water system also will include a carbon filter that has to be accessible for service.
I'll build a shelf that sits just above the water tanks to support two Trojan golf cart batteries, a fire extinguisher or two, and maybe some more miscellaneous stuff.