Colorado ZR2 and Tacoma TRD Pro compared

[lqdchkn]

This is from a deleted diesel Z71 4x4 CCSB, 2in lift, fuel wheels, 32in Duratracs, with on avg 200lbs gear (read junk) in the bed
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32.6 was in moderate commute about 50% actual freeway cruise, 25% freeway stop and go (or try to stay rolling at least, lol), 25% city for that 25 miles - should be noted that, that was the highest seen to date, which is why the pic was taken .
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[superbuickguy]

hopefully around Christmas I too can stimulate the US economy with a new ZR2, diesel purchase.

 

[kojackJKU]

You do know that toyota is built in America too right.

 

[Dalko43]

Actually it is what is behind the badge that counts. Long term reliability is still an unknown with the Chevy. What are those trucks going to be like at 100K, 200K, 300K?

Speaking from experience, Toyotas will go darn near trouble free until 200K.

Long term reliability for any new pickup and engine is unknown. But GM as a brand is capable of producing vehicles that last just as long as toyotas.

The 2.8l duramax (really a VM motori) has been used in other platforms. The unknown issue about the American version are the emissions, but those have seen quite a bit of refinement and improvement since their introduction in 2007. Negative owner feedback and the tsb's and recalls that accompany thEm have dropped off significantly over the last few years. You should go research how the emissions work and how they've evolved before you make any judgement.


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[Clutch]

Long term reliability for any new pickup and engine is unknown. But GM as a brand is capable of producing vehicles that last just as long as toyotas.

The 2.8l duramax (really a VM motori) has been used in other platforms. The unknown issue about the American version are the emissions, but those have seen quite a bit of refinement and improvement since their introduction in 2007. Negative owner feedback and the tsb's and recalls that accompany thEm have dropped off significantly over the last few years. You should go research how the emissions work and how they've evolved before you make any judgement.

Yep, use a version of it in the Ram Ecodiesel. Reports have it being a little fussy. Looked hard at the Ram's too, just can't do it.

Like I said, I need to see those things with a bunch of miles on them, before I can trust them. Trust must be earn, Toyota has done so with me. GM, not so much.

Toyota really isn't building exactly what I want either, but it is closer to the needs/wants than the Chevy. Plus the drivetrain is legendary. I know the 2.7/5 speed manny will go to 200K with hardly any issue, just keep the oil changed. The diesel engine of the Collie itself will probably be fine, it is the expensive components that causes me worry. Being self employed has made me a cheap SOB. Don't want to throw a bunch of money at a dumb vehicle. Gotta remember, I view ALL vehicles as a liability and not an asset....which one is going to cause me the least amount of damage to my bank account.

I drive an average of 24,000 miles a year, anything bought new will be out of warranty fairly quick. Have absolutely no issue owning a Toyota out of warranty. GM's make me leery. Long term reliability is a concern of mine, and think it is a valid one. You may not.

Average age of a vehicle on the road is 11+ years. If bought today...I know which one I want to be in an 11 years.

hopefully around Christmas I too can stimulate the US economy with a new ZR2, diesel purchase.

You do know that toyota is built in America too right.

Looks like the GM diesel engines are built in Thailand and exported here.

http://wardsauto.com/industry/thai-duramax-diesels-bound-north-america

You would have to go gas, if you want more US made parts. Do believe they manufacture the LFX engine in Flint for the US trucks.

 

[Highlander]

Guys how does one calculate the max payload for a crew cab tuck?
5 people plus whatever left?

 

[Dalko43]

Yep, use a version of it in the Ram Ecodiesel. Reports have it being a little fussy. Looked hard at the Ram's too, just can't do it.

Like I said, I need to see those things with a bunch of miles on them, before I can trust them. Trust must be earn, Toyota has done so with me. GM, not so much.

The 2.8l duramax ( designed by vm motori and produced in Thailand) is not the same engine as what is in the ram eco diesel.

It is used in other global platforms like the Holden and has a somewhat established history at this point. I'm not sure what you think is so fussy about the engine. The emissions are the only real new aspect with the engine, but at this point those aren't even new anymore as they've been out for 10 years now and have seen lots of improvement in mpg and reliability. The dpf and egr issues have mostly been resolved due to better ecu programming and scr usage. There are plenty of people getting high mileage with their stock emissions in place with gm diesels and other brands.

As for you not trusting gm, well that's simply you falling victim to your bias. The fact is modern ford and gm and ram pickups will last just as long as Toyota stuff. You complain that gm's Colorado isn't heavy duty enough for you. Gm puts out a pickup with a boxed frame, Diesel engine while toyota's mid size pickup is still using a c channel frame with a gasoline engine transplanted from a passenger car. Gm's pickup has more in common with the hilux (which you think so highly of) than does the Tacoma.

I'm a Toyota fan too. But i don't let that preclude me from admiring other brands when they put out something good.


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[Owyhee H]

The 2.8l duramax ( designed by vm motori and produced in Thailand) is not the same engine as what is in the ram eco diesel.

It is used in other global platforms like the Holden and has a somewhat established history at this point. I'm not sure what you think is so fussy about the engine. The emissions are the only real new aspect with the engine, but at this point those aren't even new anymore as they've been out for 7 years now and have seen lots of improvement in mpg and reliability. The dpf and egr issues have mostly been resolved due to better ecu programming and scr usage. There are plenty of people getting high mileage with their stock emissions in place with gm diesels and other brands.

As for you not trusting gm, well that's simply you falling victim to your bias. The fact is modern ford and gm and ram pickups will last just as long as Toyota stuff. You complain that gm's Colorado isn't heavy duty enough for you. Gm puts out a pickup with a boxed frame, Diesel engine while toyota's mid size pickup is still using a c channel frame with a gasoline engine transplanted from a passenger car. Gm's pickup has more in common with the hilux (which you think so highly of) than does the Tacoma.

I'm a Toyota fan too. But i don't let that preclude me from admiring other brands when they put out something good.


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Yup. You have to admire GM for offering what we have asked for many times. I have had 4 toyota trucks in a row and just bought the colorado duramax. I hope toyota wakes up and offers something competitive because otherwise the colorado and forthcoming ranger diesel will get my money. WAKE UP TOYOTA!!!!!

To be fair, I still don't know why people are so hung up on the toyota C channel frame. My 2011 tacoma was solid as can be. C channel frames are used in tractor trailers and can be as strong as any boxed frame. The strength comes from the sectional properties of the frame which can be achieved in C channel or boxed frame shape. The toyota engineers are making calculations based on the design criterial and the c channel seems to be holding up.

 

[kojackJKU]

Marketing tells them that it's better, that's why. I hope there is not one hole in that boxed section...if dirt water etc gets in there, and cannot easily be washed out, swiss cheese (yes, cheby marketing term), in no time for the frame.

 

[Clutch]

As for you not trusting gm, well that's simply you falling victim to your bias. The fact is modern ford and gm and ram pickups will last just as long as Toyota stuff. You complain that gm's Colorado isn't heavy duty enough for you. Gm puts out a pickup with a boxed frame, Diesel engine while toyota's mid size pickup is still using a c channel frame with a gasoline engine transplanted from a passenger car. Gm's pickup has more in common with the hilux (which you think so highly of) than does the Tacoma.

I'm a Toyota fan too. But i don't let that preclude me from admiring other brands when they put out something good.

Like I said, trust must be earn. It is ok to be bias based on personal experience. GM has a long way to go to earn that trust with their past track record. Not saying the Colorado is a bad truck, it is pretty awesome that are offering what people have been asking for years, however we'll have to wait and see if it can go the distance, right now we can only speculate. You can read reviews all you want, but until we get a lot of these trucks with actual high miles on them, then we will know. Guessing they'll be like the fullsize diesels, will need expensive repairs to keep them on the road, when the milage gets up there. Turbos, fuel injectors, fuel pumps, DEF systems. If you trust them, hey go right ahead buy one, it is your money. Me, I need more proof. Can pretty much guarantee that if I bought a brand new Toyota today, that 15 years and 300K miles from now, it will still be on the road, and very little fuss getting it there.

Box vs. C-Channel. yep neither the US Tacoma or the Colorado has enough payload for me and what I want it to do [haul a FWC, well...], they are pretty much rated the same, even though they approach it differently. I don't care how they do it...but it would be nice if they bumped it up to what their oversea's counter parts get. It will never happened since that US market use trucks as play things. I live in a area that trucks are kings, rarely see them loaded down, other than commercially owned. The US pickup has become the family station wagon of yore. So why have a decent payload if the majority of people will never use it?

 

[Dalko43]

It is ok to be bias based on personal experience.

Lol. Many people would disagree and say that personal experience is usually very limited in scope and context compared to group experiences or unbiased studies/surveys.

You can read reviews all you want, but until we get a lot of these trucks with actual high miles on them, then we will know. Guessing they'll be like the fullsize diesels, will need expensive repairs to keep them on the road, when the milage gets up there. Turbos, fuel injectors, fuel pumps, DEF systems. If you trust them, hey go right ahead buy one, it is your money. Me, I need more proof. Can pretty much guarantee that if I bought a brand new Toyota today, that 15 years and 300K miles from now, it will still be on the road, and very little fuss getting it there.

Again, go do some research instead of relying on your subjective feelings. The newer diesels are doing much better in terms of reliability and mpg when it comes to emissions. Go look at NHTSA's site for recalls and TSB's and compare early 2007-20012 models to the later 2013+ models. Go look at owner feedback on the various forums. There is a stark contrast between the two time periods. I'm sure modern diesel emission systems are still far from perfect, but they have seen huge improvements over the last few years and will continue to do so if the trend continues. The regen cycles and clogged DPF's, which were the big problems with early emissions-friendly diesels, have largely been resolved. DEF systems (aka SCR) really haven't been causing too many problems relative to the other emissions controls; in fact, its introduction has helped resolve some of the problems that were previously encountered with the other systems. Turbo's, fuel injectors (and filters) and pumps are potential issues for any modern diesel (including the engines used overseas in the Hilux and LC70). Go watch Ronny Dahl's youtube videos about 4x4's in Australia; he's talked about some of those topics before. And FYI, many of the Toyota diesels used overseas are starting to incorporate emissions technologies (like DPF); those things will be a global standard soon enough.

Gasoline engines are arguably simpler and easier to maintain nowadays, but then again they've been living with emissions for a much longer time, so that technology has seen a lot of improvement and refinement over the years. As a result, they may cost a bit less to maintain and fix relative to a modern diesel engine (I wouldn't be surprised if that held true even in a market saturated with diesel vehicles, like Australia). That said, if you want something like a Hilux, the Colorado is as close to that as you're going to get here in the states: sturdy frame; diesel engine; and high tow rating.

 

[CCH]

Are these small diesels more friendly to short trips/daily driving than those in 3/4 and 1 ton pickups? Running those big diesels for short trips that don't warm them up can cause regen problems. I know the dream with these trucks is long trips, but at the price, I would imagine they are going to be daily drivers as well. I have owned a big diesel, and don't miss it for anything other than towing. However, it did not show the mpg advantage this one does according to some reports. That said, initial price difference, variance in fuel cost (currently regular gas is less than diesel) and higher repair costs for diesel engines could make the investment a long time to break even. The ZR-2 as a vehicle looks very cool, and it is great to have that option out there. Hope it spurs more in that segment.

 

[Dalko43]

To be fair, I still don't know why people are so hung up on the toyota C channel frame. My 2011 tacoma was solid as can be. C channel frames are used in tractor trailers and can be as strong as any boxed frame. The strength comes from the sectional properties of the frame which can be achieved in C channel or boxed frame shape. The toyota engineers are making calculations based on the design criterial and the c channel seems to be holding up.

I don't follow the tractor trailer argument; those vehicles aren't expected to have much, if any, offroad functionality and have pretty different design parameters from your average pickup or 4x4 SUV. I think the C-channel construction is done for that application more for weight and/or cost savings than anything else, just a guess.

But you're right in that the Tacoma has a pretty solid track record, despite its c-channel frame. Though, I'm not entirely sure why Toyota uses that method for the Tacoma when they make a point of using boxed frames for all of their global 4x4 platforms (hilux, LC70, LC Prado/4runner, LC 200). The Tacoma seems to work just fine as is (though i wonder how payload rating factors into that type of setup), but with C-channels in bigger pickup's (like the older Ford Super Duty's) there was noticeable frame flex.

 

[toylandcruiser]

I don't follow the tractor trailer argument; those vehicles aren't expected to have much, if any, offroad functionality and have pretty different design parameters from your average pickup or 4x4 SUV. I think the C-channel construction is done for that application more for weight and/or cost savings than anything else, just a guess.

But you're right in that the Tacoma has a pretty solid track record, despite its c-channel frame. Though, I'm not entirely sure why Toyota uses that method for the Tacoma when they make a point of using boxed frames for all of their global 4x4 platforms (hilux, LC70, LC Prado/4runner, LC 200). The Tacoma seems to work just fine as is (though i wonder how payload rating factors into that type of setup), but with C-channels in bigger pickup's (like the older Ford Super Duty's) there was noticeable frame flex.

Unimogs have c channel frames and they are designed for off-roading than either trucks. Hell every single military truck with the exception of the hmmwv has a c channel frame.

 

[2025 deleted member]

hah. I know what it is called but the point is that the pay for jobs hasn't inflated at the same rate. This is anecdotal but I believe it to be true across most jobs. My mom retired from teaching in 1999 at a salary of 40k/yr. Same school district, same level of education, same level of experience teachers are making $45k/yr today.

Well they didn't advance. A teacher then is the same as a teacher now. A truck then is not the same as a truck now. If I was doing the same thing I was 20 years then I wouldn't be making much more either.