Concealed Carry - What Have You Got?

[AbleGuy]

I’m still waiting for the guy who posted the picture of that huge, heavy cap and ball black powder pistola to explain how he carries it concealed.

As long as the big barrel of that old fashioned shooter is, he must run into the “Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me” situation rather frequently.

Do tell.....

 

[Buliwyf]

What didn't you like about the Kahr?
Or was it an issue with the caliber?

Too small to draw quickly. Finding and gripping it sucked.
Effective range of 5 yards. Way too hard and slow to aim.
Heavy trigger and lack of grip area for large hands means the sight picture wobbles during the trigger press, and the short sight radius doesn't help here.
Even point shooting was lackluster.

Weak magazines were easy to damage. One mag spilled it's guts in the middle of a dark shoothouse. Instructor couldn't stop the drill because he was laughing so hard.

It's just not an effective weapon. Someone pulls a Kahr p380 on me, I'm going to react without hesitation.

The smallest decent pistol I've tried is the 3" Glock. 4" are a ton better. 5" is like a rifle, compared to a subcompact.

 

[shade]

I don't see a contradiction between an officer supporting the 2nd Amendment, and that same officer preferring to know where all of the firearms are located during a traffic stop.

Note that I said preferring, not demanding, which relates to what I said earlier. A quote from an '80s classic comes to mind.

"It would be well for your government to consider that having your ships and ours, your aircraft and ours, in such proximity... is inherently DANGEROUS. Wars have begun that way, Mr. Ambassador."

 

[shade]

Too small to draw quickly. Finding and gripping it sucked.
Effective range of 5 yards. Way too hard and slow to aim.
Heavy trigger and lack of grip area for large hands means the sight picture wobbles during the trigger press, and the short sight radius doesn't help here.
Even point shooting was lackluster.

Weak magazines were easy to damage. One mag spilled it's guts in the middle of a dark shoothouse. Instructor couldn't stop the drill because he was laughing so hard.

It's just not an effective weapon. Someone pulls a Kahr p380 on me, I'm going to react without hesitation.

The smallest decent pistol I've tried is the 3" Glock. 4" are a ton better. 5" is like a rifle, compared to a subcompact.

Makes sense.

I have a Kahr PM9 that I believe is a similar size. I can shoot it well enough with my pinky jammed under the short magazine, but prefer to shoot it with the longer mag, which kind of defeats the purpose of the smaller size. I find the trigger pull, target acquisition, etc. fine out to 25 yards, but it's obviously a compromise compared to a larger pistol.

If I was buying a semi-auto for concealment today, I'd likely get a single stack Glock, though. I'd imagine those have hurt Kahr sales pretty bad.

 

[ventura911]

you say your pro-second Amendment. Yes. if that were the case then everybody who is a US if that were the case then everybody who is a US citizen, unless they are a criminal or too young, Could be lawfully armed. Yes. why would it bother you if somebody's printing? It doesn’t “bother” me; it heightens my tactical awareness and, since I enforce California law, will cause me to inquire about it for the purpose of making sure the firearm is lawfully being carried. Knowing the person has a CCW answers that question without unnecessary drama. I can see if there's some sort of issue and they're reaching somewhere Such as for a wallet in a front or back pocket or purse, vehicle registration in a glove box, or an insurance card in a center console? and you don't know what's going on Other than knowing why I stopped the person, I rarely know anything about what’s going on in the person’s life, so... but if you see somebody Printing and they're doing nothing wrong and it bothers you you are not pro 2nd Amendment, quit lying. I have to balance my personal support of the Second Amendment with my professional duty to enforce the laws of California. As I am expected to do, I do my best to separate my own beliefs from my duties as a cop. As for calling me a liar? Well, since you don’t know anything about me other than a few Internet posts today, I’ll not worry about your mistaken opinion.

you keep talking about a free pass or people doing something when they're pulled over, every citizen of the United States of America, without exception, is innocent until proven guilty, aren't they? Well, not quite. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law means the court cannot impose punishment upon someone until that bar is met. If you run a red light, steal a pack of gum, rob a bank, etc., and I see you do so, I am the one calling you out on it. Believe it or not, people dislike having their misdeeds pointed out to them. Whether it’s out of embarrassment, fear, or whatever, some people, not all, but some, have a tendency to take it out on the cop who caught them. Most of the time, this is expressed verbally, but it can become physical and lead to a violent encounter.


I'm not talking about walking to a bank robbery I'm talking about pulling somebody over for speeding. I have encountered cooperative suspects who have committed bank robbery and violent people who have been stopped for traffic violations, so while I hope each encounter is peaceful, I cannot count on it being so. Adding a weapon to the equation can turn out badly; if you’re lawfully carrying a firearm with a CCW, why not voluntarily try to mitigate any concerns that might, correctly or not, arise?
[/QUOTE]

 

[ventura911]

Here’s my perfect CCW scenario during a traffic stop:

Me: “Hi. I stopped you for running the stop sign back at First and Elm. Can I see your license, regisration, and proof of insurance?”

Driver: “Sure. Before I get them for you, I want to let you know I have a CCW and am carrying my pistol today.”

Me: “Okay, where’s the gun now?”

Driver: “It’s on my right side.”

Me: “Okay. Don’t reach for it. Where’s your CCW?”

Driver: “It’s in my wallet in my back pocket, left side.”

Me, with my hand on my holstered sidearm and ready for a wrong move: “Okay, why don’t you slowly get your wallet so I can see your CCW and license? Don’t reach for the gun, or I might take it as a threat, okay?”

The driver follows my directions, I obtain his CCW and driver’s license, and I have another officer watch him while I do a computer check and find nothing amiss. Once everything checks out, the driver gets a warning or citation for his violation, and we go our separate ways.

Same circumstances, but the driver does not mention his CCW or firearm:

The driver reaches for his wallet, registration, or insurance and I see the firearm print, a holster on his belt and partially concealed, or the firearm itself. I order him not to move and hold him at gunpoint until I get Code 3 backup and can safely disarm and handcuff him. Until I have him disarmed and detained, I’m not going to listen to much of what he has to say. Once we’re in a stable situation, I will now continue my investigation into why the driver was armed and whether everything was legal. If so, I will give the driver some advice, with the intent that the CCW holder understands how this could have gone more safely and without the unnecessary drama, and we go our separate ways.

Same circumstances, but it does not end as well:

The driver doesn’t listen to my directions and reaches for the firearm, or perhaps his wallet in the back right pocket behind his pistol. I draw my firearm and he fails to comply with my orders not to move. In a matter of seconds, I must take into account everything I know at that moment and determine if his movements are an immediate threat. Since I’ve already tried to de-escalate the situation by ordering him not to move or reach for the gun, I’m left with having to make the split-second decision to protect myself by shooting him and stopping the threat.

Oh, and BTW, in all three scenarios, my bodycam will be recording the event.



Do we all agree that the first scenario is best for all involved?

 

[MOguy]

Here’s my perfect CCW scenario during a traffic stop:

Me: “Hi. I stopped you for running the stop sign back at First and Elm. Can I see your license, regisration, and proof of insurance?”

Driver: “Sure. Before I get them for you, I want to let you know I have a CCW and am carrying my pistol today.”

Me: “Okay, where’s the gun now?”

Driver: “It’s on my right side.”

Me: “Okay. Don’t reach for it. Where’s your CCW?”

Driver: “It’s in my wallet in my back pocket, left side.”

Me, with my hand on my holstered sidearm and ready for a wrong move: “Okay, why don’t you slowly get your wallet so I can see your CCW and license? Don’t reach for the gun, or I might take it as a threat, okay?”

The driver follows my directions, I obtain his CCW and driver’s license, and I have another officer watch him while I do a computer check and find nothing amiss. Once everything checks out, the driver gets a warning or citation for his violation, and we go our separate ways.

Same circumstances, but the driver does not mention his CCW or firearm:

The driver reaches for his wallet, registration, or insurance and I see the firearm print, a holster on his belt and partially concealed, or the firearm itself. I order him not to move and hold him at gunpoint until I get Code 3 backup and can safely disarm and handcuff him. Until I have him disarmed and detained, I’m not going to listen to much of what he has to say. Once we’re in a stable situation, I will now continue my investigation into why the driver was armed and whether everything was legal. If so, I will give the driver some advice, with the intent that the CCW holder understands how this could have gone more safely and without the unnecessary drama, and we go our separate ways.

Same circumstances, but it does not end as well:

The driver doesn’t listen to my directions and reaches for the firearm, or perhaps his wallet in the back right pocket behind his pistol. I draw my firearm and he fails to comply with my orders not to move. In a matter of seconds, I must take into account everything I know at that moment and determine if his movements are an immediate threat. Since I’ve already tried to de-escalate the situation by ordering him not to move or reach for the gun, I’m left with having to make the split-second decision to protect myself by shooting him and stopping the threat.

Do we all agree that the first scenario is best for all involved?

I will assume based on the number of years you've worked in law enforcement you are in your mid-50s, as am I.

In your scenario above you give a completely *********-up version and a completely perfect version. Throughout you're probably 50 some years existence how many times did things work out completely perfect and how many times do things work out completely ********* up and how many times you think this workout somewhere between?

In your scenario above would it make you feel more or less comfortable once he told you he was caring and had a CCW permit??

Had he not told you he was caring and you never knew he was carrying what would you have done different?

 

[NevadaLover]

Here’s my perfect CCW scenario during a traffic stop:

Me: “Hi. I stopped you for running the stop sign back at First and Elm. Can I see your license, regisration, and proof of insurance?”

Driver: “Sure. Before I get them for you, I want to let you know I have a CCW and am carrying my pistol today.”

Me: “Okay, where’s the gun now?”

Driver: “It’s on my right side.”

Me: “Okay. Don’t reach for it. Where’s your CCW?”

Driver: “It’s in my wallet in my back pocket, left side.”

Me, with my hand on my holstered sidearm and ready for a wrong move: “Okay, why don’t you slowly get your wallet so I can see your CCW and license? Don’t reach for the gun, or I might take it as a threat, okay?”

The driver follows my directions, I obtain his CCW and driver’s license, and I have another officer watch him while I do a computer check and find nothing amiss. Once everything checks out, the driver gets a warning or citation for his violation, and we go our separate ways.

Same circumstances, but the driver does not mention his CCW or firearm:

The driver reaches for his wallet, registration, or insurance and I see the firearm print, a holster on his belt and partially concealed, or the firearm itself. I order him not to move and hold him at gunpoint until I get Code 3 backup and can safely disarm and handcuff him. Until I have him disarmed and detained, I’m not going to listen to much of what he has to say. Once we’re in a stable situation, I will now continue my investigation into why the driver was armed and whether everything was legal. If so, I will give the driver some advice, with the intent that the CCW holder understands how this could have gone more safely and without the unnecessary drama, and we go our separate ways.

Same circumstances, but it does not end as well:

The driver doesn’t listen to my directions and reaches for the firearm, or perhaps his wallet in the back right pocket behind his pistol. I draw my firearm and he fails to comply with my orders not to move. In a matter of seconds, I must take into account everything I know at that moment and determine if his movements are an immediate threat. Since I’ve already tried to de-escalate the situation by ordering him not to move or reach for the gun, I’m left with having to make the split-second decision to protect myself by shooting him and stopping the threat.

Oh, and BTW, in all three scenarios, my bodycam will be recording the event.



Do we all agree that the first scenario is best for all involved?

Okay let's look at that scenario another way, say you work in Nevada where open carry is legal and handguns concealed on your person in your vehicle are also legal, what do you do on a traffic stop where the driver doesn't tell you about a firearm and has no obligation to tell you?
To clarify my question, what do you when you haven't been notified and see a handgun?

 

[ventura911]

In your scenario above would it make you feel more or less comfortable once he told you he was caring and had a CCW permit?? I’d be more comfortable, as studies have shown CCW holders are more law-abiding than the general population. Once I’m aware of it, and he understands and follows any directions I might give him, I’ll have a better read on him and a lot more information with which to make my decisions and handle the stop.

Had he not told you he was caring and you never knew he was carrying what would you have done different? Well, since I would never have known he was carrying, then none of this would have come up during the stop. Over my career, during thousands of traffic stops and public encounters, I have not known everything I would have liked to have known, and I’m thankful this lack of knowledge has not ended poorly for me.

 

[ventura911]

I will assume based on the number of years you've worked in law enforcement you are in your mid-50s, as am I.

In your scenario above you give a completely *********-up version and a completely perfect version. Throughout you're probably 50 some years existence how many times did things work out completely perfect and how many times do things work out completely ********* up and how many times you think this workout somewhere between?

In your scenario above would it make you feel more or less comfortable once he told you he was caring and had a CCW permit??

Had he not told you he was caring and you never knew he was carrying what would you have done different?

Sorry, you edited your post as I was responding to the original. You’re absolutely right, I gave a perfect version and a totally crappy version, as well as one a bit more in the middle. Why the argument? Yes, life isn’t perfect, but if everyone were to strive for perfection in this scenario, then there’s a greater chance of a happy ending, right?

In fact, in my first post on this subject, I described an actual event that went extremely well. One might call it “perfect.”

 

[ventura911]

Okay let's look at that scenario another way, say you work in Nevada where open carry is legal and handguns concealed on your person in your vehicle are also legal, what do you do on a traffic stop where the driver doesn't tell you about a firearm and has no obligation to tell you?
To clarify my question, what do you when you haven't been notified and see a handgun?

In your scenario, I’m working in a different environment and enforcing different laws. Therefore, any actions I take will be dictated by the circumstances and will follow Nevada laws, training, and policies and procedures, all of which I’m not familiar with, being from, and speaking about, California. (Oh, and for the record, I’m unfamiliar with the laws, training, and policies and procedures of the other 48 states, as well.)

As for an “obligation” to inform the officer, I don’t believe I ever expressed that a CCW holder, or otherwise legally-carrying person if a CCW is not required, is obligated (in the sense of a legal duty) to inform the officer. However, I would suggest that, since the other part of the definition of obligation has to do with a moral duty, the
armed citizen does have the obligation to mitigate any chance of an unnecessary, dangerous, and violent incident from happening.

 

[NevadaLover]

In your scenario, I’m working in a different environment and enforcing different laws. Therefore, any actions I take will be dictated by the circumstances and will follow Nevada laws, training, and policies and procedures, all of which I’m not familiar with, being from, and speaking about, California. (Oh, and for the record, I’m unfamiliar with the laws, training, policies, and procedures of the other 48 states.)

As for an “obligation” to inform the officer, I don’t believe I ever expressed that a CCW holder, or otherwise legally-carrying person if a CCW is not required, is obligated (in the sense of a legal duty) to inform the officer. However, I would suggest that, since the other part of the definition of obligation has to do with a moral duty, the
armed citizen does have the obligation to mitigate any chance of an unnecessary, dangerous, and violent incident from happening.

Fair enough on the first part.
On the second part, I wasn't saying that, I was asking what you would do if you stopped someone and they didn't inform you that they were armed and you saw a firearm?

But one part of your post, specifically :
the
armed citizen does have the obligation to mitigate any chance of an unnecessary, dangerous, and violent incident from happening.
This is where I feel different from how you feel and where I get into heated arguments at work, I don't see how my legally carrying a firearm is call for you or other law enforcement to suddenly feel unsafe or "scared" and go into the "unnecessary, dangerous, and violent incident" mode! Yes you do a dangerous job, that you signed up for, and yes the world is a dangerous place, but the mere presence of a firearm doesn't necessarily mean a danger to you or anybody else!
And yes, even here where it is legal as I have said, we have lots of LEO's who overreact and pull legal citizens out of their vehicles and handcuff and place them into their patrol vehicles for a period of time all under the guise of "officer safety"!
It's total hypocrisy in my eyes that some law enforcement think that they and only they should be armed and go out of their way to make that feeling known, THAT'S why I never got a CCW, I don't feel that law enforcement has ANY right to know that I am armed in my vehicle!
And just to clarify one point, my firearm is secreted legally completely hidden from view and nobody sees it until I extract it from its hiding place, that way if I did get pulled over I don't have any chance of making an officer, deputy or trooper nervous, my attempt at keeping the peace I feel!

 

[ventura911]

Fair enough on the first part.
On the second part, I wasn't saying that, I was asking what you would do if you stopped someone and they didn't inform you that they were armed and you saw a firearm? Sorry, missed that part. The second scenario I offered covers this, I believe?

But one part of your post, specifically :
the
armed citizen does have the obligation to mitigate any chance of an unnecessary, dangerous, and violent incident from happening.
This is where I feel different from how you feel Yep, I sense that. and where I get into heated arguments at work, I don't see how my legally carrying a firearm is call for you or other law enforcement to suddenly feel unsafe or "scared" and go into the "unnecessary, dangerous, and violent incident" mode! I did not say I would go into this “mode,” I merely said the moral obligation to inform would mitigate any chance of the incident devolving into such a condition. Yes you do a dangerous job, that you signed up for I’m not sure what you mean by this?, and yes the world is a dangerous place, but the mere presence of a firearm doesn't necessarily mean a danger to you or anybody else! Perhaps not, but there is a greater chance that if things become dangerous, the firearm might just be a part of it.
And yes, even here where it is legal as I have said, we have lots of LEO's who overreact and pull legal citizens out of their vehicles and handcuff and place them into their patrol vehicles for a period of time all under the guise of "officer safety"! I prefer to stick to specifics, so while I won’t argue that such events have occurred, I won’t comment further on your generalization that you “...have lots of LEO’s who overreact and pull legal citizens out of their vehicles...”, etc., except to repeat, go to the agency and make a complaint.
It's total hypocrisy in my eyes that some law enforcement think that they and only they should be armed I don't know about the cops in your area, but I’d suggest more cops support your right to carry than don’t. and go out of their way to make that feeling known, THAT'S why I never got a CCW, I don't feel that law enforcement has ANY right to know that I am armed in my vehicle! Sorry, confused again. I thought you said you didn’t get one because you don’t need to do so in Nevada.
And just to clarify one point, my firearm is secreted legally completely hidden from view and nobody sees it until I extract it from its hiding place, that way if I did get pulled over I don't have any chance of making an officer, deputy or trooper nervous, my attempt to keeping the peace I feel! Then, based on what you’re saying, you are complying with the law. Kudos to you!

 

[shade]

I've only been pulled over a few times in recent years. There was one time when I was pulled over and I told the Officer I was carrying. I was going to have to reach for my wallet and it was right next to my gun.

When I told him he said cool, what do you carry. At that time I cared at 1911 series 70. We talked about it a little bit we talked about the movie I was coming back with my family. He was planning on taking his kids to the movie and want to make sure it was a good movie. We never talked about my speeding after that and I didn't get a ticket.

Sounds like two rational people dealing with what was at hand with no drama. Everybody wins.

 

[ventura911]

What about us non US Citizens ?
Have I been armed unlawfully all these years ?

As I understand the law, aliens lawfully in the US can purchase firearms. However, I am NOT an attorney and encourage you to seek legal advice from one on something as serious as a possible firearms violation. You can also check websites for the ATFE, FBI, and your local state DOJ, as well as firearm enthusiasts’ forums like Calguns.net, for current information.