Cooper ST's - 255/85/16

[xcmountain80]

Ditto.

I LOVE the tread design of the Cooper, but it seems almost too skinny to put on my FJ80... I would like to like the Toyo M-55, but Redline has me a little spooked about that one, especially considering the $250/ea (or more) price tag... The BFG KM seems to have a lot of happy customers, but the tread seems overkill for the kind of driving I do.

When I get ready to actually spend money on a set of tires, I may just flip a dang coin!

I hear ya but I have a slight twist to this. I'm running 295/75/16 Nitto Terras 33.?X11.? and have a NEW full size spare. I also have a NEW 285/75/16 Cooper STT 33.?X11.? slightly smaller in diameter and width than the Nitto. With either of those I could just buy 3 tires and save some coin. Since money is tight I'll run the nitto's until they are flat. I like the MT's but again they are a little aggressive for day to day. Not to mention not siped, the cooper STT's aren't siped either but they don't chunk either.

Aaron

 

[FLYFISHEXPERT]

Yesterday I went down and talked with the local Cooper dealer here in town. I asked him specifically about siping the S/T. He informed me that Cooper Tires is not a proponent of siping their tires and in fact discourages it. The dealer informed me that Cooper sees siping as an action that voids their factory warranty. The dealer, a Commercial Tire, informed me that they would sipe the tire and it would be covered under their warranty. I talked to him about the possibility of siping the tire to the minimum depth they have the capability of going, 5/32, for winter driving to avoid chunking during summertime off-roading. He discouraged this as well as siping a used tire is not cosmetically pleasing. I don't care a bout cosmetics, so I will probably end up siping. I have an email out to Cooper to verify the above.

 

[Redline]

I mostly agree about the Cooper ST 255/85 being pretty narrow (tread, not section width) for an FJ80. Hell, they look pretty narrow on my '06 4Runner, particularly compared to my more beefy Maxxis Bighorns. I would also suggest you consider the ST in a 285/75R16. That size should look good on your 80. 285s will probably cost you extra fuel too.

I really want to love the M55, just would like a little less whine, a little less wheel weight, and a little more void. Less expensive would be nice too :sombrero:. Though they are still quieter, and a different tone that the Cooper ST.

While 285s can be squeezed onto 7-inch rims, the minimum suggest is 7.5", and eights might be better. I have some 285s on the stock seven inch wheels on my F350 currently and the sidewalls are pinched in more than I prefer. This appears to be even more of an issue when the tires are aired-down. On the other hand, 255/85R16s love 7-inch wheels :smiley_drive:

Ditto.

I LOVE the tread design of the Cooper, but it seems almost too skinny to put on my FJ80... I would like to like the Toyo M-55, but Redline has me a little spooked about that one, especially considering the $250/ea (or more) price tag... The BFG KM seems to have a lot of happy customers, but the tread seems overkill for the kind of driving I do.

When I get ready to actually spend money on a set of tires, I may just flip a dang coin!

 

[ashooter]

I mostly agree about the Cooper ST 255/85 being pretty narrow (tread, not section width) for an FJ80. Hell, they look pretty narrow on my '06 4Runner, particularly compared to my more beefy Maxxis Bighorns. I would also suggest you consider the ST in a 285/75R16. That size should look good on your 80. 285s will probably cost you extra fuel too....

Redline,

You may not know it, but I have probably read and re-read every word you've written at this site about tires in the last year or so. I blame you for still having 265's on my truck!
ROFSheriffHL:



...just funnin'

Seriously though, you have given me a LOT of food for thought and because of that I may be overthinking the whole thing. The facts are: I tried 285 Revos on 16x8 alloys and didn't like the way the truck handled. Swapped them for some 265's and the truck corners and tracks much nicer, plus gas mileage is better. Recently got rid of the alloys and bought these 16x7 steelies in anticipation of putting a set of 255/85's on the truck when I got another 10k or so on the 265 Revos. I'd had a passing interest in the Cooper S/T, but pretty much settled on either the Toyo M-55 or the BFG KM when 24HOURSOFNEVADA found me at "mud" and pointed me here....

I'm really thinking these Coopers will be fine for me, since I plan to pull the flares off this summer when I get time to repaint the truck. So "looks" should be fine flareless. I doubt there's any mechanical reason why the Coopers would be a bad idea, since they are load range D tires and my truck is not armored up, other than I plan to add a no-winch ARB roo bar eventually.

Do you have any more tips/suggestions to scramble my brain with?



?

 

[FLYFISHEXPERT]

Siping Cooper S/T Tires

Here is the response I got back form Cooper Tire:

I am considering your S/T tires for my 4Runner. I was talking
with my local Cooper Tire dealer about having them siped. The dealer
informed me that siping the tire would void the manufacturers warranty.
Is this true? Winter traction is very important to me and from what I
understand havign the tires siped increases winter traction. What are
your feelings on this subject?

Beau,
Yes this will void the warranty on our tires. Siping does increase traction but in the S/T tires case you'll not need it in most situations. Tread studs would be fine for increasing traction.
Thanks,
Clay

Clay,
Why does siping the tire void the warranty? Is this the case
with all of your tires?
Beau Johnston

Yes, it is. Siping can be done improperly so often that we merely can't be responsible for what other persons introduce to our products in the field.
Clay

 

[madizell]

Not at all surprising. Few manufacturers will stand behind a product that has been modified by someone else in a manner that manufacturer can not control. I wouldn't either.

If you want to sipe your tires, proceed. You simply have to abandon the warranty. Best bet is to do it yourself. The tool is under $100.

 

[Redline]

Although I like a 7-inch wheel for 255s, an 8-inch works fine (I used stock eights on my Rubicon TJ, and currently used 7.5-in. on my 4Runner). I would have suggested the 8-in. alloys that you sold to go with M55s over steel 7-inch wheels. As you probably know, alloy wheels usually require less weight to balance and the (one) set of M55s I had took more wheel weight than other heavy 255/85 tires I have owned (Maxxis Bighorn & Bravo AT are heavy as well).

Unless it frustrates you, 'over-thinking it' may not be the worst thing as most people only buy one set of tires every few years and it's hard to compare one tire to another years apart.

Comment on your "facts":

I agree about the 285s. As of this writing I have owned two sets, the current set on my F350 and a previous set of Toyo MTs that I tested on both an LJ and F350. The only reason I bought these two sets of 285s is because the tires were not available in 255/85.

265/75R16- a nice size tire, except that I really prefer a 33-in tire over a 32. If there is no 255/85 in the tread I want that leaves a 285/75 unless I'm willing to go shorter (currently I'm giving thought to a set of tires that are not offered in 255/85 so later I will have to choose between: 285/75, 265/75 or 235/85).

All of these 255/85 tires you mention (M55, ST, BFG MT) have strong and weak points. Because of their popularity and availability I think the BFG MT is an interesting option. I'm very curious to see how the new BFG KM2 rates compared to the current BFG MT when they are offered in 255/85 in the Fall. The current BFG KM are louder than the ST and M55, and if I remember correctly took a bit more weight to balance than my Maxxis Bighorns (the Bighorns weigh about 7-lbs more each).

Personally, I would not discount the difference in price. Not that having flats or replacing ripped tires is a fun option, it is probably unlikely to occur. If the Cooper STs are going to cost you $500.00 less for a set, you can probably buy 2-3 replacement tires "IF" you ruin some before you reach the original price of the M55s.

I was going to buy my Cooper STs mail order from

http://www.custom-wheels-car-rims.com/Tires.cfm

because they were so inexpensive and shipping to me was only $15.00 each. I found them locally for within $3.00 per tire after tax so I bought them locally. But the price was so reasonable in this day of $200.00+ tires that I thought it was stupid not to try them (I sold a set of slightly used Toyo MTs in 265/75 to finance the STs). I have yet to use the STs off-highway enough to judge them (only one easy trip to Death Valley). On-highway I love them except they are a bit noisy (as you have read). The only thing I don't care for, and I knew this before I bought them, was their appearance. The tread is much narrower than the sidewalls compared to most tires (just like the Dean SXT in 255/85). It makes the tire look even narrower and makes the sidewall a little more vulnerable when deflated aggressively.

The Look will likely be even better "flareless". If you make the truck narrower I think a narrower tire looks better/okay. This is one reason the Maxxis Bighorns and BFG MTs look better on my 06 4Runner, as the 06-up 4Runners have wider plastic fender flares and skinny Cooper STs get lost inside with wheel wells.

How's that for adding to the confusion ☺

Redline,

You may not know it, but I have probably read and re-read every word you've written at this site about tires in the last year or so. I blame you for still having 265's on my truck!
ROFSheriffHL:


snip....

Do you have any more tips/suggestions to scramble my brain with?



?

 

[ashooter]

Although I like a 7-inch wheel for 255s, an 8-inch works fine (I used stock eights on my Rubicon TJ, and currently used 7.5-in. on my 4Runner). I would have suggested the 8-in. alloys that you sold to go with M55s over steel 7-inch wheels....

The alloys I had from the previous owner were after-market chrome-plated cast wheels rather than OEM forged alloys. I would have kept them if they were OEM's, but these were too "bling" for my liking, and I was a little worried about their strength. Actually, I have given some thought to keeping the Revos on these 16x7's and buying a set of five OEM 70-series 16x6 steelies for a set of Cooper 255's. The Coopers would be my "boonie tires" and then I could mount the Revos for long highway trips... I'm not sure I'm that far gone yet, but I have thought about it.

265/75R16- a nice size tire, except that I really prefer a 33-in tire over a 32...

Agreed 100%! Maybe even a 34" tire.

FWIW, I just took a trip out in the boonies today where I got a pretty good representative sample of the types of "offroad" driving I do out here - rock, steep, gravel, brush... There were a couple of spots I wished for a little more ground clearance than the 265 Revos give me. There were a couple of spots I wished for a little more aggressive tread since I had a little slipping on some gravel/caliche going up a really steep hill. Only place I went today that something like the BFG KM's would not have done it better (maybe) was crossing a dry creekbed a couple of times where the BFG's might have tended to dig into the soft sandy gravel more than the Revos, which floated right over.

I know I'm not the first to say it, but I sure wish BFG made their AT in a 255/85!

Personally, I would not discount the difference in price. Not that having flats or replacing ripped tires is a fun option, it is probably unlikely to occur. If the Cooper STs are going to cost you $500.00 less for a set, you can probably buy 2-3 replacement tires "IF" you ruin some before you reach the original price of the M55s.

I was going to buy my Cooper STs mail order from - http://www.custom-wheels-car-rims.com/Tires.cfm

That's the place I was thinking about ordering the Coopers if I couldn't find them "locally" (within 100 miles) for close to the same price.

I hadn't really thought about the price that way, but now that I crunch the numbers, I would actually be able to afford a set of 7 Coopers and 2 more of these steel wheels for $15.00 more than a set of 5 Toyo M-55's! I'm not that hard on tires!

I guess that fact alone pretty much rules out the Toyos for me. Now I just have to toss the coin between the Cooper S/T and the BFG KM.

 

[Redline]

In Favor of Cooper ST

A couple weeks ago I again installed my mounted Maxxis Bighorn MTs onto the 4Runner just to enjoy them on the car in the garage (been riding M/C more than driving). They look great and complete the vehicle. I only drove about 200-miles on the weekends before taking them off and putting the mounted Cooper ST 255/85R16s back on. The Bighorns are well balanced and ride well but they are still an aggressive mud tire. The Bighorns are fairly loud/audible and don't get quieter at speed. The noise continues to grow with speed making them a less highway friendly tire.

(Somewhat related to all of this tire talk) I gave the car a much needed hand wash/wax, the first in months, and noted all the little rock/paint chips on the lower body. I'm not blaming all these chips on the Bighorns as the Bighorns have not been on for many miles over the winter, but the Bighorns do catch and throw more rocks than the much less aggressive Maxxis Bravo AT or Cooper STs.

Though there have been many comments about the noise/volume of the Cooper ST tread design, my own included, all things are relative. After a few miles on the Bighorns going back to the STs was nice. The tires are audible, but not loud compared to a typical mud tire. Loud compared to a quiet AT, sure. To repeat myself/earlier posts, though the Cooper ST is clearly audible at all speeds in my quiet 4Runner, they become noticeably quieter at freeway speeds where a tire like the Maxxis Bighorn just get louder and drones on.

There is lots to be said for a tire like the ST. Lots more void than an all-terrain but less than a ‘mud' tire. Yes the STs are narrow, much narrower than the Bighorns, and don't look as ‘tough' on my Mall Crawler, but they also feel and work great on the car.

This time I put 30-psi in the STs and they ride and steer perfectly.

 

[Redline]

I think you are far from me (Texas?) and my 4Runner is not the same animal as your FJ80. But if you were much closer you could drive/fly over and drive my 4Runner with a couple of these tires mounted to compare them (BFG MT vs. Cooper ST). I think dirt performance will be very good with either of these two tires. The big difference off-highway will be in the most extreme, wet & deep snow or mud. Obviously this is where the higher void BFG MT will be better.

Depending on your actual use, and since both tires seem to be quite capable from a traction standpoint, as a matter of practicality I suggest you base your decision more on the positive or negative highway manners of the tires. Desert Dude seems to be happy thus far picking the Cooper STs for less noise over the BFG MT. (Coopers are made in USA too

Another thought, though it sounds like you will need tires before Fall, the new BFG KM2 should be out in 255/85R16 later this year. Of course none of us know how that tread is going to sound, grip, or wear compared to the current BFG MT.

I have become a big proponent of multiple sets of wheels and tires. If you can afford the initial cost, it is a great way to go.

In a previous post I think you mentioned the load-range-D weight rating of 255/85R16 tires and your heavy 80? My 4Runner is about as heavy (heavier?) as a stock FJ80, about 5,500-lbs now without a load or passengers. A 3,000-lb per tire capacity is much more than most will ever need or use. I have used lots of 255/85 D-range tires on my heavy F350 diesel. I would never shy away from this size or load-range unless I was going to need more than 6,000-lbs of capacity per axle.

On a somewhat unrelated rant:

Yesterday I was walking through a parking lot and noticed a set of Cooper STs on a newer half-ton pickup. The tread caught my eye, they were studded, but the size was LT275/65R18. Yuck! I just don't like low-profile tires on trucks, but maybe it's the future?

SNIP.........

I hadn't really thought about the price that way, but now that I crunch the numbers, I would actually be able to afford a set of 7 Coopers and 2 more of these steel wheels for $15.00 more than a set of 5 Toyo M-55's! I'm not that hard on tires!

I guess that fact alone pretty much rules out the Toyos for me. Now I just have to toss the coin between the Cooper S/T and the BFG KM.

 

[Redline]

Cooper ST Subjective Noise Test Observations

2006 4Runner
Cooper ST 255/85R16
30 PSI cold

Tire noise is moderate at 65-MPH. Noise starts to build and increase around 70-MPH, and continues to increase between 70-80.

Somewhere slightly above 80-MPH (82?) the tire noise appears to decrease on up to 90-MPH, possibly because of an increase in wind noise, which is competing with and canceling out some of the tire noise.

Tire noise seemed a bit worse while driving into a head-wind compared to when I had a tail-wind at similar speeds.

Of course, the tires were noticeable louder on concrete freeway compared to smoother asphalt.

 

[jim65wagon]

I think it's time you purchased a decibel meter...:beer:

 

[ashooter]

Redline,

First, THANKS for all the info - both directed at me, as well as just general tire info you have posted at this site.

I do think from a purely practical standpoint, the Coopers are probably the best thing out there for my use. The Toyo M-55 might be better, but at $100 more per tire they'd have to be a whole lot better! The BFG KM/KM2 or the Maxxis Bighorn would undoubtedly be overkill because of the fact that there just isn't any mud around here (West Texas). Even when it rains 3 inches in an hour, the deepest mud I've ever seen is about 4-6 inches on top of solid rock.

One of the things I like about the Cooper is that I've read in a couple of reviews how the driver was pleasantly surprised at how they don't pick up and throw rocks. Even these Revos toss more than a few, and I can imagine a full blown mud terrain would sound like popcorn.

Vehicle weight: Your 4-Runner is HEAVY! I think stock weight of my FJ80 is about 6000 lbs, so we're close. With my idea of a full load, plus future ARB front bar, I'm guessing weight on the ground would still be under 7000 lbs. 80's are pretty heavy, but not heavy like a loaded down diesel pickup is heavy. Load range D "LT" tires ought to be plenty.

I'm surprised you only run 30 lbs in your 4-Runner! I run 40 lbs in load range E 265 Revos and it rides good... even though part of me wants to air them up to 45. I've heard a couple of guys running 255 BFG KM's on FJ40 and FJ/FZJ80 Cruisers talk about running them at 60 lbs+! Is there a formula for figuring out how much pressure is "correct"?... And if so, does the formula fit ALL tires or is it dependent on tire size/construction?


?

 

[Redline]

You are correct! All joking aside, I have actually been considering one for months but I'm not sure how reliable my results will be, nor have I wanted to spend the money on one. I do have an old analog DB meter that was lent to me, but haven't figured out how I will drive and use it at the same time


Redline

I think it's time you purchased a decibel meter...:beer:

 

[SOAZ]

You are correct! All joking aside, I have actually been considering one for months but I'm not sure how reliable my results will be, nor have I wanted to spend the money on one. I do have an old analog DB meter that was lent to me, but haven't figured out how I will drive and use it at the same time

I forgot to post above: Although the Cooper STs are audible, they are much quieter than the Maxxis Bighorns.

Redline

One other slightly nice thing about the cooper st's compared to the BFG Mud is the lack of vibration. BFG Muds had the mud terrain tell tale vibration from parking lot speeds on up to highway speeds. My coopers don't have that. "not noticeably" anyways.
I do need to post another picture of the chunking and chipping. After a trail run last weekend at full tire pressure on some sharp rocks there are a lot of chunks missing.