C-Fish
Adventurer
Did yours come from the factory with spacers? Apparently there are some late model Dodge pickups with OEM spacers that Discount will service...
Discount Tire ******!!!...Over
- Thread starter C-Fish
- Start date
Did yours come from the factory with spacers? Apparently there are some late model Dodge pickups with OEM spacers that Discount will service...
ntsqd
Heretic Car Camper
The spacers used by those brands and road racers are far, far different from the spacers that you're using. Theirs are shim spacers, yours are not. There is a considerable difference in the load path between the two. It is that difference that is critically important. I have tried and tried and tried to explain the problem, but few seem to care and even fewer seem to understand the issue.
Ask "Grim Reaper" here about his experience with this type of spacer. He is not alone in that type of experience. If that isn't enough proof then I don't know what to say.
I don't even know where to begin here. See there are these people called engineers who are educated about designing this sort of thing. I won't claim to be a very good one, but I did get that education. The stress flow through an offset stud spacer, as is commonly used on off road vehicles, is a nightmare. A shim type spacer, as commonly used on road racers, is just that - a shim. Those are clamped between the wheel and the wheel hub. The added stress from using them is almost insignificant compared to off road type spacers. There is a slight change in stress in the wheel studs and a slight change in stress in all of the wheel hub, wheel bearings, etc. parts. The total of those added stresses is less than the added stresses from a different wheel offset because these shim spacers are used to put the wheel in a place where there is no correct offset available to do.
Even though an off road spacer does add the same stresses to the supporting parts that would be added due to a change in wheel offset, that isn't the whole picture. Look at the exact shape of these offset stud type spacers. Now consider that stress is like water in a way; it does not like to go around sharp corners. With that description if you can't see the beginnings of my objection to this type of spacer then I'm wasting my time trying to further describe the problem.
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You assume that these wheel spacers were not designed by engineers? I can't verify that either, so I guess that's up the air. Your other issues with aluminum can apply to other aluminum products such as wheels, and there seems to be no issue with a properly designed wheels. Some are better than others, and yes, wheels fail too.
I did a search on Grim Reaper's experience, and he is not clear in his description, other than blaming the spacer.(I don't have an eternity to search) Without proper analysis, it would be hard to determine if his issues were material failure, design failure, improper installation, or another issue, such as neglected wheel bearings, etc. I couldn't find a good description.
Anyway, not trying to start a flame war, just another comment.
I did a search on Grim Reaper's experience, and he is not clear in his description, other than blaming the spacer.(I don't have an eternity to search) Without proper analysis, it would be hard to determine if his issues were material failure, design failure, improper installation, or another issue, such as neglected wheel bearings, etc. I couldn't find a good description.
Anyway, not trying to start a flame war, just another comment.
It does not seem that unrealistic to me.
Think about all the kids who would put all kind of wheel spacers to fit all sort of wheels on their Civic "fast and furious" edition.
I have always been a bit "concerned" when I hear "wheel spacer" as I have seen some crazy stuff.
Would you want your company be responsible for that?
I know it may be fine most of the time, but I wouldn't.
Think about all the kids who would put all kind of wheel spacers to fit all sort of wheels on their Civic "fast and furious" edition.
I have always been a bit "concerned" when I hear "wheel spacer" as I have seen some crazy stuff.
Would you want your company be responsible for that?
I know it may be fine most of the time, but I wouldn't.
ntsqd
Heretic Car Camper
I never expected mine to be a popular position. I've no idea if an engineer designed these spacers or not. I can not imagine an engineer not doing an extensive analysis on them if he or she had known that they were going to be used on the street. This comes back to does the mfg say that they are DOT compliant and safe for street use? I highly doubt it, but I could be wrong.
For their original application, rock buggies & what-not, they're fine. No issue with their use there at all. I see some advantages to using them in that type of application.
Whom ever originated making them this way may have done the homework to make them live and be safe for street use. I highly doubt that this is possible, but it might have happened. That is no guaranty that those who copied the original design didn't make some simple change(s) that take them into the unsafe zone.
Say the design is only safe when made from 7075, but most make them from the cheaper and more common 6061. That is like taking a design intended for 4130 Chro-Moly and making it from 1018 mild steel. There is no reasonable way that the consumer could tell the difference, until the part(s) fail. Those with spacers who find that their lug nuts frequently need to be re-torqued should be particularly on guard. Something is moving or distorting for that to happen. Not a good sign.
The fatigue life issue with the spacers is directly related to the stress concentration. Low stress = long life. High stress = short life. Lots of cuts, pockets, and notches = high stress.
Wheels are designed to be comparatively low stress components. There is NO way to make these spacers low stress components, can only minimize the stress and find a material that gives a suitable life.
Perhaps the mfg's ought to take a clue from the OE's? They make similar spacers for the front of dually trucks. Those spacers are well designed and made from a material with practically an infinite fatigue life.
I've 'known' Grim on a couple of other forums over the span of several years. He does not strike me as one who is lax in his maintenance, yet a spacer failed and set large tire free at speed.
For their original application, rock buggies & what-not, they're fine. No issue with their use there at all. I see some advantages to using them in that type of application.
Whom ever originated making them this way may have done the homework to make them live and be safe for street use. I highly doubt that this is possible, but it might have happened. That is no guaranty that those who copied the original design didn't make some simple change(s) that take them into the unsafe zone.
Say the design is only safe when made from 7075, but most make them from the cheaper and more common 6061. That is like taking a design intended for 4130 Chro-Moly and making it from 1018 mild steel. There is no reasonable way that the consumer could tell the difference, until the part(s) fail. Those with spacers who find that their lug nuts frequently need to be re-torqued should be particularly on guard. Something is moving or distorting for that to happen. Not a good sign.
The fatigue life issue with the spacers is directly related to the stress concentration. Low stress = long life. High stress = short life. Lots of cuts, pockets, and notches = high stress.
Wheels are designed to be comparatively low stress components. There is NO way to make these spacers low stress components, can only minimize the stress and find a material that gives a suitable life.
Perhaps the mfg's ought to take a clue from the OE's? They make similar spacers for the front of dually trucks. Those spacers are well designed and made from a material with practically an infinite fatigue life.
I've 'known' Grim on a couple of other forums over the span of several years. He does not strike me as one who is lax in his maintenance, yet a spacer failed and set large tire free at speed.
M
modelbuilder
Guest
Spacers are safe....arm chair experts say they are not. Still no proof that they are unsafe in any post in this thread.
It's a nightmare....engineers say this...yada yada yada...still no proof or examples of failures. Just assumptions.
It's a nightmare....engineers say this...yada yada yada...still no proof or examples of failures. Just assumptions.
ntsqd
Heretic Car Camper
Still no proof that they are safe either. Spacers are a stress riser nightmare. I was taught to err on the side of Safety, engineers call it the "Conservative" option/method/solution.
If you're comfortable with saying something that has the potential to dramatically affect the lives of others, who may or may not have had any say in the decision, when you have no apparent education or information to support that, then so be it.
I've had my say, I knew going in that I'd be the voice in the wilderness. I'm just surprised that it is so strong here. When you're ready to discuss it factually instead of with blind emotion/devotion I'm ready.
<unsubscribed>
If you're comfortable with saying something that has the potential to dramatically affect the lives of others, who may or may not have had any say in the decision, when you have no apparent education or information to support that, then so be it.
I've had my say, I knew going in that I'd be the voice in the wilderness. I'm just surprised that it is so strong here. When you're ready to discuss it factually instead of with blind emotion/devotion I'm ready.
<unsubscribed>
jsmarine
Adventurer
I'm not an expert on this, I don't have any examples or proof of failure, and I don't have wheel spacers on my rig. But to me they seem unsafe; by spacing out the wheels you have that much less of the lug bolt for the nut to hold onto. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Even if you replaced your lug bolts with longer ones I wouldn't want the weight of the vehicle resting on the outer edge of the lug bolt.
I also don't think anyone on here would agree that putting a stack of washers behind the wheel would be safe, which to me seems like the same concept as a wheel spacer, just only that wheel spacers are made of aluminum. Which by the way I don't think would fail; I think its the lug bolts that will fail, either too much stress makes them snap, or not enough threads for the nuts to hold onto. Just my $.02 I guess
I also don't think anyone on here would agree that putting a stack of washers behind the wheel would be safe, which to me seems like the same concept as a wheel spacer, just only that wheel spacers are made of aluminum. Which by the way I don't think would fail; I think its the lug bolts that will fail, either too much stress makes them snap, or not enough threads for the nuts to hold onto. Just my $.02 I guess
M
modelbuilder
Guest
Bleezle blaazle babble...
They seem unsafe...facts? Come on guys...it's all talk.
No one has still provided proof that they are unsafe...only reasons why they might be unsafe. They are about as safe as any mod you would make to your rig...maintain it and it will be fine.
And since no one can offer any evidence of failures in the field or on the road all they can do is make assumptions.
Come on...admit you have no proof they are unsafe. You know what else is unsafe...gas pedals...it seems stuck gas pedals has been a much bigger problem than spacers as of late.
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They seem unsafe...facts? Come on guys...it's all talk.
No one has still provided proof that they are unsafe...only reasons why they might be unsafe. They are about as safe as any mod you would make to your rig...maintain it and it will be fine.
And since no one can offer any evidence of failures in the field or on the road all they can do is make assumptions.
Come on...admit you have no proof they are unsafe. You know what else is unsafe...gas pedals...it seems stuck gas pedals has been a much bigger problem than spacers as of late.
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C-Fish
Adventurer
You're thinking of these.
The conversation is about these...
Two completely different animals...
jsmarine
Adventurer
You're thinking of these.
The conversation is about these...
Two completely different animals...
Well you are correct, I was referring to the first picture.
And I apologize for not reading the thread correctly, but still, in the second picture, if you are spacing out your wheels THAT FAR that you need to bolt the spacer onto the old lugs and then need new lugs for the wheel to bolt to; then that also seems really unsafe to me!!
Again, no proof, or examples of it, but that just doesn't seem like the RIGHT way to gain the look you want, or the clearance for wider tires!
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M
modelbuilder
Guest
:safari-rig: Still safe even if they don't look it. The ones in the second picture are similar to what I have...spidertrax...proven safe and never met anyone that had a problem.
Token
Explorer
Not a spacer story but a chain tire story none the less..
Brought some 35" BFG MT that I'd picked up of ebay in the shop with some OEM Hummer H3 wheels to mount them on.. No problem.. $1 per wheel inch per wheel mount and balance.. ($16x4).. Took the truck in and they slapped them on real quick, backed the truck off the rack and did a lock to lock turns and found out they rubbed the swaybar SLIGHTLY at full lock.. The guy tells me that since the they rub, they can't leave them on the truck.. I reach in the cab, grab my keys and say "Whatever.. You'll have to do it with the hand jack, cause I'm not letting you put it back on the rack.." He just walked off, I paid and left..
Brought some 35" BFG MT that I'd picked up of ebay in the shop with some OEM Hummer H3 wheels to mount them on.. No problem.. $1 per wheel inch per wheel mount and balance.. ($16x4).. Took the truck in and they slapped them on real quick, backed the truck off the rack and did a lock to lock turns and found out they rubbed the swaybar SLIGHTLY at full lock.. The guy tells me that since the they rub, they can't leave them on the truck.. I reach in the cab, grab my keys and say "Whatever.. You'll have to do it with the hand jack, cause I'm not letting you put it back on the rack.." He just walked off, I paid and left..
Token
Explorer
FWIW, I'd like to read about ANYONE that's had a set of "these" spacers fail on them..
I've got a friend in CO that lost a wheel off his Jeep on I-70 and was running spacers. Turned out someone had removed 4 of 5 lugnuts.. He had one stud broken off.. Other studs were fine, just no lugs.. He has no idea how long it had been like that but he was 20 miles from the last place someone would have had a chance..
I've got a friend in CO that lost a wheel off his Jeep on I-70 and was running spacers. Turned out someone had removed 4 of 5 lugnuts.. He had one stud broken off.. Other studs were fine, just no lugs.. He has no idea how long it had been like that but he was 20 miles from the last place someone would have had a chance..