Do I really need 4x4 on my van?

[ihatemybike]

I've got an absolutely terrific Pleasureway Traverse camping van. The one thing is it's not 4x4. It would cost me nearly $10k to convert it and I still wouldn't use it on more than rutted two-track roads. I think of 4x4 as a safety margin for poor weather (like snow) but then there are chains which are a lot cheaper anyway.

A local shop suggested I just get some self recovery equipment, maybe do a small lift and get AT tires vs. the Michelin LTX M&S tires I run now.

Since you already have a van that you enjoy, I agree with the shop. Might want to add a selectable locker to the rear diff though.

Once the van is ready, go have some fun on the trail and see how it does. If the van does everything you want it too, great! If you find that you are stuck or worried about getting stuck too often, start saving for the conversion.

This guy is a bit of a goof and the audio is out of sync, but his van has ATs and he's having fun with his 2WD conversion van.




More 2WD Full Size Van




And my standard reply on the Astro/Safari forums when the subject of 2WD off-road comes up.

 

[RocKrawler]

The other side to the argument on all the videos you posted is you cn hit any of those extremely mild situations with an empty vehcle and enough speed/momentum to make it through the occasional tight spot, but when your vehicle is loaded down with equipment for the week and you're hauling down the trail the cargo is going to be everywhere, and the vehicle is taking a beating and wouldnt last as long as a 4wd rig cruising along at a safer pace. My goal for a 4x4 Van would be taking something comparable to the Mojave Road safely if the weather went bad - not rockcrawling, but something you might not want to risk getting stuck in 2WD on if you were alone, or burdoning those with you to constanty pulling you out every time you got stuck.

 

[Herbie]

My goal for a 4x4 Van would be taking something comparable to the Mojave Road safely if the weather went bad - not rockcrawling, but something you might not want to risk getting stuck in 2WD on if you were alone, or burdoning those with you to constanty pulling you out every time you got stuck.

That's a perfect example of the point I was trying to make. For me having 4x4, etc. isn't about the rock crawling, its about having enough safety margin should things go a bit pear-shaped.

 

[CSG]

That's the way I view 4x4 too, Herbie. I'm not one of those types who runs around joking that 4x4 just allows you to get stuck farther back. For me, it's more for the safety margin of getting back when something happens (like inclement weather). My own common sense keeps me from getting in trouble these days. I learned the hard way when I was younger.

 

[RocKrawler]

Yep - and in CA it was if things got bad on the trail. Now here in VA, we experienced a bit of the frigid white powder this past winter that had nearly every every 2WD stuck in the parking lot unable to move without chains. That sucked. Now it looks like 4wd is going to be part of life here on the east coast, so its an easier decision for me. I know lots of people "get by" with 2WD in snow and other conditions, but I prefer going where I want, when I want, and not letting trail or road conditions dictate my travels. I've also seen plenty of 2WD tow rigs stuck going out to the lakebed at the Hammers and other spots, where 4x4 tow rigs had zero issues, I dont want to be that guy begging for a recovery pull because I always felt if you didnt come prepared, you shouldnt be there in the first place.

 

[zuren]

If one were to opt for 2WD with a locker, what would be recommended for these big vans (Ford E350)? I see ARB has a selectable air locker (RD37) and Eaton has a couple:

- Detroit TrueTrac (LSD)
- Detroit Locker (full locker)
- Detroit E-Locker (selectable electronic)

I'll need to read up on the strengths/weaknesses/pros/cons of each. I guess I would lean toward a selectable locker since any van I would have would be doing a lot of highway miles to get to where I may need the locker, but that is my application and a mostly uneducated statement at this point!

 

[RocKrawler]

If one were to opt for 2WD with a locker, what would be recommended for these big vans (Ford E350)? I see ARB has a selectable air locker (RD37) and Eaton has a couple:

- Detroit TrueTrac (LSD)
- Detroit Locker (full locker)
- Detroit E-Locker (selectable electronic)

I'll need to read up on the strengths/weaknesses/pros/cons of each. I guess I would lean toward a selectable locker since any van I would have would be doing a lot of highway miles to get to where I may need the locker, but that is my application and a mostly uneducated statement at this point!

I have "heard" of problems with the Eaton, although I have not experiened any myself - but I have plenty of experience with the ARB and they are flawless when installed correctly. I can supply either one, let me know if you need a quote. :victory:

 

[Ozrockrat]

What damage will you do to the road/track

Another thing to consider is will you cause more damage to the places you go by only having 2wd. Its not only can I get there/back. Sooner or later we all pay for road/trail damage. Its either taxes or trail closures.

I know most people on this forum probably don't have this in the front of their mind as they will only use the road/track once to see whats there and go somewhere else so they do not have to contend with the damage every time they head to town etc. But the locals, workers etc get there vehicles beaten up running rutted roads or have their taxes pay for the repairs.

Now I am probably more sensitive to this than most. We lived 30 miles outside town on an all dirt road. The council (Australian for county) would grade the road once a year. If some numb nuts ripped it up in the wet we lived with it for a long time.

FACT: well setup and carefully driven 4wd will do less damage than a 2wd. A badly setup or driven 4wd will still cause a lot of damage.

OK now I'm off the soapbox. Rant over back to normal programming :coffeedrink:

 

[ujoint]

Can't go wrong with the versatility of the ARB.

 

[T.Low]

I see T.Low was captain of the debate team! What great examples of having the added flexibility 4wd affords!

Its funny how people seem to thing you are going to be rock crawling to need 4wd - there are plenty of situations where it can be useful. Personally, I don't want restrictions, and I look at it as insurance. Personally I don't mind the investment if it provides peace of mind and a margin of safety for my family. I can go camping and exploring without a SPOT, CB, HAM, recovery gear, winch, etc... would it be responsible of me to do so with kids involved without taking these precautions? To me personally no. If I were to only hit campgrounds off paved roads or maintained dirt roads, then I'd be totally comfortable with it. But there are forums for that group, and many of us here aren't there because we want to go away from those crowded spots. That's why we are her in ExPo, and not rvforum.net or any of the hundred other forums that cater to the beaten path. We have done our homework and after weighing all of our travel goals, the 4x4 Van is our ideal setup. Since the SMB is out of the budget, building it ourselves with the help and suggestions of people on these forums are key to getting it right, hopefully the first time.

Thanks RKrawler, and I agree whole heartedly. None of those examples were of rock crawling; they were all just out and about exploring in the mountains from A to B. Once in a while I do push the envelope a wee bit just to experiment and get a more educated idea of what the van is actually capable of...since there's not a lot of data out there on 4x4 Astros!


There is a forest fire fighter that seems to slpit time between Colorado and Michigan who has done a ton of stuff in his lifted 2wd Astro. But has since sold it and built an AWD Astro. IF you care to, you could search "2wd astro firevan" maybe.

 

[biere]

I am one of those people who use 4x4 for unexpected weather, better gearing using 4x4 low, and generally just keeping better control of the vehicle.

My jeep is capable of some astounding stuff, I saw videos of similar jeeps do it.

I admit to trying some things when out with others so that I feel more comfortable as a driver if such a situation arrises.

But I tend to wander out by myself and I need to get back even if the weather thinks otherwise.

I think a 2wd van can accomplish some amazing stuff. But I think a 4x4 van offers more safety factor if things don't go as planned.

Since I like to wander off by myself it is harder to get unstuck if I get stuck. Being able to self recover is nice but depending on weather and time this might get old.

It will really suck if I get injured or sick somehow.

So while my jeep has an amazing 4x4 system that others push to the limits I use it for minor things and like it since it is a big safety margin in case mr murphy stowed away in the roof rack and brought some friends along to ruin my weekend.

A locked up 2wd with good tires will do what I want to do pretty well. And that is also something I am considering since I need tires on my jeep.

4 mild all terrains will ride better on road and with 4x4 I will have some hope of getting through some muck.

With 2wd I would go with more aggressive tires and drive more aggressively than I prefer to drive.

Now I don't really mind aggressive tires other than their short lifespan.

But I will probably put all terrains on the jeep and if I had a 2wd with a locker I might wind up with mud terrains on the back for max traction. The front tires are just along for the ride so all terrains would wind up on the front since I treat a 2wd like a semi that has steer tires up front and traction on the back.

As far as lockers go, I had a lunchbox locker in a 76 catalina I messed with a decade or so ago and I would not rely on it for something as heavy as a built van.

While I would prefer to have the locker disengage I would be tempted to go with the detroit locker but you have to put up with their handling quirks when on pavement. But there is no air line to fail when you need it.

I have never lived with a detroit and the lunchbox locker I had was kind of mild so I admit to not being able to really give solid advice on lockers.

My jeep does things all by itself as far as the differentials are concerned and I am very very spoiled by it.

 

[Doin_It]

So I asked Mr. Hackney the question about having, and using his 4x4 on his trruck while on his extended travels, (and I say MR. due to the fact that like many of us who haven't..........he has been "out there") his response was...

"If you are going to South America (SA) to visit the interesting places you don't need 4x4 for 98% of them. You can rent a local Hilux or burro for the remaining 2%.

We used our 4x4 a few times in Patagonia (mud), but a DCV went by us on the worst of those roads and they were smiling.

We used it in earnest, as in really needed it, maybe 3 or 4 times."

I'm sure by DCV he means a Citroen DCV. Those little "pimples" have traveld the world.

As a side note a Cirteon hold the records for "the first trans-saharan mail delivered by car" Though they were on a tracked vehicle in 1923.

http://www.piecescitroensport.citroen.com/CWW/en-US/HISTORY/ADVENTURE/CrossingTheSahara/


Does that help you out a bit?

I have found out in the years gone by, as in 20+ years ago, before oil companies were into the habit of providing 4x4 trucks up here in Canada, that a 4x2 with chains would make it into 80% or more of the places a
regular 4x4 would go, had we had lockers maybe more. That would of course would have been mud and snow.

I grew up in Africa, and we went ever where in 4x2 Peugeot pickups, never thought about needing a 4x4. Of course if you got stuck, there was always someone to help.

 

[CSG]

Good post, Doin_It.

 

[RocKrawler]

I grew up in Africa, and we went ever where in 4x2 Peugeot pickups, never thought about needing a 4x4. Of course if you got stuck, there was always someone to help.

And there is the key.... with the travels some of the rigs here do running solo, there isnt always someone to help if you get stuck. I think the debate here is entirely dependent on how far you plan to venture solo, who you may be traveling with, and what equipment you know will be carrying at all times. If your idea of an expedition is to an improved forest or beach campground than its likely that something happening can be remedied with a local ranger or camp official coming to your rescue on their rounds. If you and a buddy are both in 2WD rigs out in the middle of nowhere and weather turns nasty like grandmas bloomers, then you might both be stuck in the mud or sand. Having a second vehicle in this case just means now 2 rescue's are required. If you travel in groups with other well equipped rigs chances are someone can get you out and to safety. Where you are and what you carry can be crucial if you feel that 2WD is all you'll need in these situations, because the argument that 4WD "adds weight and kills mileage" becomes a moot point when you're in horrid weather and cant contact help. Personally I'd rather have the weight under the vehicle in the form of an axle and transfer case helping my COG in our large boxes, as opposed to adding a bunch of weight in the form of recovery equipment and chains up in the vehicle worsening my relative COG and taking up precious space that could be better used for lightweight trip supplies like Twinkies and Chips Ahoy cookies. Just sayin.

 

[Coyotearms]

I've had two 4x4 shops tell me that a limited slip on 2x4 is mostly a waste of money and it can cause as many problems as it solves. As far as a heavy bumper, what good does that do me? I've got a hitch receiver on the back that could take a hitch mounted winch and I could put a front mounted receiver hitch on for a lot less weight and money. As far as a lift, what will that get me regarding traction? I wouldn't put bigger tires on it than are on there now so I'm not sure what I gain. The rear differential isn't going to get any higher although a few other low points might gain a bit of height. I've got just under 8" now.

I was told by Quad Van that if you have a later model E-350 with that mysterious rectangular window in the front bumper, you can install a winch without having to put out mucho bucks for a macho bumper. So that is another reason. Also, I hear over and over about rigs weighing greater than 10k lbs---that's called over loading the suspension. Everyone gets their E-350 overloaded, so why complicate it with replacement bumpers that add weight unless you need to look cooler than snot, which of course is a major reason we by SMB's?

p.s. That mysterious rectangular window is most likely for engine cooling, and one may need to clarify whether air blockage from the winch would be measurably detrimental.