Do you feel the need to be unarmed and defensless while camping?

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OCD Overland

Explorer
OCD Overland posted "Let's list all the cases of this happening outside of one's imagination. You start."
November 7, 2015 6 killed at Texas campsite. Took 3 seconds on google. How many more do you need me to list?
No, that's not what I asked for. I want a list of the times some camper was saved by some other passerby and his gun. It's your scenario, mind you - I'm just following through.

And did you really only find one example? I know of at least three. And the way some people go on here, you'd expect it to number in the hundreds.
 
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OCD Overland

Explorer
He just wants to stir the pot.
As opposed to what? This entire thread is an exercise in pot stirring. Some toter didn't like the way someone else titled his thread - even though if he'd bother to read it, it was a real question posed by someone who actually ended up buying a gun. But the title - oh, my! - it was too much for him to take. So he started his own pro-totin' entitled thread to assuage his hurt feelings.
 

OCD Overland

Explorer
I have no idea where you get off saying something like that, especially given the recent events that have transpired here in America and throughout the world.

You can quote statistics all you want, though oddly enough you didn't actually provide a source for the specific stats which you used.

Statistically speaking, we shouldn't have to worry about emergency exits and flotation devices on airplanes since the chances of any one individual flight crashing into the ocean are very low; every commercial flight has those safety features though.
Statistically speaking, a man shouldn't have to get checked for testicular cancer since his chances of having that are 1 in 263; such a check is still highly recommended for men.
Statistically speaking, there is a low probability of getting electrocuted during a lightning storm, but most people run inside regardless.

We can go on and on about what threats/issues aren't statistically relevant. We still take certain precautions for those threats because the consequences of slipping through that statistical safety net are quite severe....Why should we view carrying a firearm any differently?
LOL, you don't know where I "get off saying that"? Such anger.

A) 5 times more likely to die from getting bonked on the head than by getting shot. - http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm, http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html

Wear a helmet, people! Everywhere you go! It's your constitutional right.

B) Statisticaly speaking, most people don't understand statistics. Therefore, they make pretty dumb choices in life. That's kind of my point, thank you. Gun ownership just happens to be one of those things. It doesn't make you safer so much as it makes you feel safer.

I'm not anti gun, I'm anti gun-toter. Anti gun-culture, or anti gun gung-ho, or whatever you want to call it. I look at people who go on in threads like this and I'm looking at children playing cowboy.

Fantasy.
 
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Dalko43

Explorer
LOL, you don't know where I "get off saying that"? Such anger.

I'm not angry. I'm flabbergasted that someone would try to say that carrying a firearm for self-defense is statistically irrelevant in light of all the attacks we have seen here and abroad. Every time I turn on the news, I'm hearing some supposedly intelligent reporter talk about how mass shooting and gun violence is on the rise. Then I hear from you, the self-proclaimed statistics expert, telling me how there is no need to worry about gun violence because statistically there are other things more likely to happen to me. Which narrative should I believe? They both seem mutually exclusive to me.


A) 5 times more likely to die from getting bonked on the head than by getting shot. - http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm, http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html

Wear a helmet, people! Everywhere you go! It's your constitutional right.

Falls, motor vehicle accidents, struck by an object combined account for over 70% of TBI's. There is prescribed safety equipment for most, if not, all of those scenarios (seatbelts, air bags, bike helmets, construction hard hats). Because of those statistics most people are wearing helmets, and taking other precautions, where such measures are relevant; so your argument that everyone needs to wear a helmet (whether genuine or satirical) is moot.

Also, how did you calculate that a person is 5 times more likely to die from a TBI injury over a gun-related injury? I didn't see that specifically noted on the link you provided.

B) Statisticaly speaking, most people don't understand statistics. Therefore, they make pretty dumb choices in life. That's kind of my point, thank you. Gun ownership just happens to be one of those things. It doesn't make you safer so much as it makes you feel safer.

I'm beginning to wonder if you understand statistics. For example do you know how death and injury rates are actually calculated?

As for whether gun ownership statistically makes a person safer or not, that's transitioning into a whole other argument, which up until this point you've done nothing to prove or disprove. It seems to me that short of compiling a large, diverse and credible pool of criminal-civilian self defense incidents, it will be fairly hard to make a statistical case one way or the other. I'm inclined to say that the matter is entirely subjective. I know plenty of common-sense people who have stayed safe throughout their lives without ever touching a firearm and I know plenty common-sense people who have carried most of their adult lives without an issue. I also know plenty of idiots from both groups that have gotten into trouble; the common denominator has always been individual judgement and decision-making (or lack thereof) not the presence or lack of a firearm.

And as I said earlier, there are many other calamities (certain types of cancer, airplane crashes) that are far less likely to befall someone than a gun violence related death, and yet we still take extreme precautions for them. I think a purely statistical analysis of life's threats or problems isn't very practical for everyday life. What's far more practical is risk-analysis, which incorporates many different factors regarding an issue (including the probability of occurrence and severity of outcome among other things) to allow a person to make an informed decision.

I'm not anti gun, I'm anti gun-toter. Anti gun-culture, or anti gun gung-ho, or whatever you want to call it. I look at people who go on in threads like this and I'm looking at children playing cowboy.

Fantasy.

Ah yes...this narrative again. I think you want the gun-culture (whatever that is) to be full of gung-ho, cowboys and wannabe heroes. The reality of life for the average gun-owner here in America is vastly different from what you imagine it to be. I don't think you've had a lot of exposure to firearms or firearm owners. Because if you did, you wouldn't be regurgitating that played-out, cliche propaganda that gets spouted off by certain politicians and media groups.
 
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OCD Overland

Explorer
70%!!!

That's not really a lot for a random number. I mean, look - 100!!! - wow, that's a lot.

For kids who don't read good...

CausesPie_04.2014.png


You pretty much listed all the causes of hitting your noggin, then said 70!!!. I didn't say only wear a helmet when being assaulted by a bear, or when in 'unknown/other' situations. My point is that people fall down a lot. So why aren't you wearing a helmet, right now!?! You could frickin Fall Out of That Chair! Then where would you be? On the floor, that's where, and maybe even without a gun. What if a bear were to attack you right this moment, and you're on the floor, no helmet, delirious from having hit your head, and your gun is like, clear across the room. Now you've been eaten by a bear, and he has your gun, and he's headed off now to shoot some camper, and KMG is nowhere to be seen. Do you realize how much this situation will confuse statisticians? You could have prevented this just by wearing a helmet. Maybe a tactical one. Black, with some MOLLE attachment points or something.
 
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Dalko43

Explorer
70%!!!

That's not really a lot for a random number. I mean, look - 100!!! - wow, that's a lot.

For kids who don't read good...

CausesPie_04.2014.png


You pretty much listed all the causes of hitting your noggin, then said 70!!!. I didn't say only wear a helmet when being assaulted by a bear, or when in 'unknown/other' situations. My point is that people fall down a lot. So why aren't you wearing a helmet, right now!?! You could frickin Fall Out of That Chair! Then where would you be? On the floor, that's where, and maybe even without a gun. What if a bear were to attack you right this moment, and you're on the floor, no helmet, delirious from having hit your head, and your gun is like, clear across the room. Now you've been eaten by a bear, and he has your gun, and he's headed off now to shoot some camper, and KMG is nowhere to be seen. Do you realize how much this situation will confuse statisticians? You could have prevented this just by wearing a helmet. Maybe a tactical one. Black, with some MOLLE attachment points or something.

If I were making a paper-thin argument, I'd be hiding behind sarcastic commentary as well ;)

Please, continue...your posts are bound to get more amusing as you continue down this rabbit hole.
 

OCD Overland

Explorer
Hey, I'm only following the path KMG blazed for us. Once you put fantasy scenarios on the table, you can't limit how fantastic.

Seriously, though, I'm being real with my point about looking at this from a statistical standpoint. Hitting your noggin is funny, but the point is that there are a ton of things out there that can hurt you and we tend to fixate on the wrong ones. Want to live longer? Stop drinking sodas. I mean, I've seen the crowd at overland expo and I think heart disease is going to get most of these guys long before any bad guy has a chance.

And yeah, it's easy to say, well why not? Why not have a gun even if there's the slightest chance of having to use it. Well, here's why...


Big man in his big truck with his big gun. Gun defenders like to pretend that this never happens, but unfortunately there's plenty more of that around. There's no IQ test for gun ownership, and the more guns out there, the more likely cr*p like this happens. Some people think that if everyone wore a gun that we'd all live in some magic utopia, but we wouldn't. We'd all live in a world where every idiot ************ out there is ready to pull a gun every time someone hurts his feelings. And there are a lot of idiot ************** out there.
 
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kevin604

Observer
I think the two sides always talk about extremes. As a pro gun Canadian, I'm not against carry. I'm against any projectiles in camp where there is a chance they are drinking. "Common sense" is a pretty low common denominator these days. Sadly the stats show the most damage is caused by accidental discharge of a firearm, not offense or defense. I'm protected from my neighbor at home by at least two sets of walls and 50 to 100 feet of distance. I just don't trust people enough to use good sense when it involves alcohol. In a public campsite, rarely is their not an issue with music/ camp noise / generator use. I just don't want to hear guns popping off at midnight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
I think the two sides always talk about extremes. As a pro gun Canadian, I'm not against carry. I'm against any projectiles in camp where there is a chance they are drinking. "Common sense" is a pretty low common denominator these days. Sadly the stats show the most damage is caused by accidental discharge of a firearm, not offense or defense. I'm protected from my neighbor at home by at least two sets of walls and 50 to 100 feet of distance. I just don't trust people enough to use good sense when it involves alcohol. In a public campsite, rarely is their not an issue with music/ camp noise / generator use. I just don't want to hear guns popping off at midnight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup
If that Biker had been packing and was as unstable as big man in his big truck full of big friends the story probably would have included gun play and some poor kid near by being hit. "Cant fix stupid"

65,000 miles commuting by bike in 5yrs. Something about motorcycles and people feeling invincable in cars triggers the most illogical crazy behavior I've ever seen. Smart experienced two wheeler riders simply ride fully expecting intentional attempts to kill you from other motorists. I've had people cut off three lanes of traffic in attempts to hit me as I was minding my own business 4 lanes away. Crazy people happen and happen allot. Sadly... Be safe out there and no a gun doesn't really change the game it just upps the leathal mistake factor.
 

Verkstad

Raggarkung
B) Statisticaly speaking, most people don't understand statistics. Therefore, they make pretty dumb choices in life. That's kind of my point, thank you. Gun ownership just happens to be one of those things. It doesn't make you safer so much as it makes you feel safer.

Compound that with the fact that 78.5% of all statistics are fabricated 3.2 minutes before being published.
Folks who make choices based on statistics are doomed to make dumb choices.

Btw, The biker video was amusing, Thanks !!
It displays alot about stupid bikers doing stupid things.
 

plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
Hey, I'm only following the path KMG blazed for us. Once you put fantasy scenarios on the table, you can't limit how fantastic.

Seriously, though, I'm being real with my point about looking at this from a statistical standpoint. Hitting your noggin is funny, but the point is that there are a ton of things out there that can hurt you and we tend to fixate on the wrong ones. Want to live longer? Stop drinking sodas. I mean, I've seen the crowd at overland expo and I think heart disease is going to get most of these guys long before any bad guy has a chance.

And yeah, it's easy to say, well why not? Why not have a gun even if there's the slightest chance of having to use it. Well, here's why...


Big man in his big truck with his big gun. Gun defenders like to pretend that this never happens, but unfortunately there's plenty more of that around. There's no IQ test for gun ownership, and the more guns out there, the more likely cr*p like this happens. Some people think that if everyone wore a gun that we'd all live in some magic utopia, but we wouldn't. We'd all live in a world where every idiot ************ out there is ready to pull a gun every time someone hurts his feelings. And there are a lot of idiot ************** out there.

What a joke, that guy doesn't represent anyone but himself. You are trying to lump a large group of people together. Critical thought is needed on your part.
 

OCD Overland

Explorer
I'm not lumping anyone together, and I don't hold that guy as representative of anything. I just know that guy is out there. And if you think he's the only one, then your head really is in the sand.

Stupid people exist. The more stupid people who have guns, the less safe my world is.
 

F5driver

Adventurer
I wonder of the moron on the bike would have knocked on the window if he didn't have "a pretty big YouTube channel"?
 

Dalko43

Explorer
I'm not lumping anyone together, and I don't hold that guy as representative of anything. I just know that guy is out there. And if you think he's the only one, then your head really is in the sand.

Stupid people exist. The more stupid people who have guns, the less safe my world is.

You admit that stupid people cause problems but for some reason you choose to fixate on the object and not the person, at least when it comes to firearms.

I can think of a lot activities/objects that don't mix well with stupidity.

Stupid people on bikes:

Stupid people jumping on cars:

Stupid people driving drunk:

Stupid people with lighters:

Stupid people in traffic:

By your line of logic, I guess I should consider cars, alcohol, lighters, and sport bikes very dangerous and pointless to have, because in the hands of stupid people, they can cause a lot of harm. But I don't, and I suspect most people don't as well. They are objects/tools, granted ones that need to be used appropriately and with respect.

A firearm is a tool. Most people who own them use them responsibly. Your video shows someone acting in a negligent and irresponsible manner due to road rage (which is a well known problem on the streets of America, involving both armed and unarmed drivers). You obviously do think this dip**** is representative of the gun-owning community, because if you thought he was the exception to the norm, you probably wouldn't have used this video to try and prove your point. This guy no more represents the firearm community, or that crazy "gun culture" as you refer to it, than does the speeding biker represent the motorcycle community. Some % of people are idiots; that has been the case well before we were ever talking about gun regulation or assault style this and that. As the proverbial saying goes: It only takes a few bad apples to ruin it for everyone (having everything instantly posted to youtube probably only exacerbates that).
 
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