"Double down or fold" - Part 2 ...

[Martinjmpr]

Seconding Buddha's remarks. You're starting with a clean slate, a brand new trans AND the phat cooler. AND all that prior towing experience and concerns. Now you 'stand pat' and cruise for years. Stay out of high revs and high temps as best you can and that trans should last a very long time. There's nothing inherently wrong with it (or the 10-bolt / 3.73 ).

Yes, the logical, reasonable part of my brain knows you're right, of course. I think I was still a little bit pissed off when I started this thread - I'm sure you know the feeling of "Screw it, I'm done with this POS!"

Driving to work this morning again made me realize how much I actually like this truck and how much I'd lose if I get rid of it too soon.

Then of course there's the double-whammy of getting socked with taxes/registration fees and increased insurance costs on a newer truck too. Those are absolutely non-trivial concerns (sales tax alone on a ~$33k truck would run nearly 2 grand and a registration fees are based on "assessed value" so that's like getting taxed twice. ) Not to mention that for the way we use a vehicle, if I go with a pickup, a topper will become a necessity so factor another $2k on top of everything else.

As I said above, if I went strictly "by the numbers" I could literally put a new transmission in this truck every year and still be ahead of where I would be if I bought a new(er) vehicle.

12.3mpg heh, I was just talking with Stryder about that the other day, he got some crazy high MPG cruising upstate at <65mph. But he's got tall gears and pretty much has to keep top speeds down as tradeoff for his off-road performance.
My typical mixed tank is likewise a poor 12.5. My driving is mostly errand-running around town, where I try and keep things under 2k rpms.

The number of times I've taken the 'Burb on a long trip WITHOUT the trailer I can probably count on the fingers of one hand. Back in 2016 I drove a 400+ mile round trip to the Northwest part of the state to pick up a sidecar for my motorcycle and running at ~65mph through mountain roads I got an astonishing 18.5 MPG. But any more if I need to drive somewhere far away and am not pulling the trailer, we'll take the wife's CR-V which will give us 24 MPG in the city and over 30 on the highway. It's not as comfortable as the 'Burb and it's NOISY (surprisingly "unrefined" for a 2016 car) but my poor overall MPG is more due to the fact that we only use the 'Burb when we pull the trailer and/or when I'm driving to work, both of which are MPG killers.

The newer crop of half ton trucks with 6, 7, 8 and 10 speed transmissions get impressive MPG numbers when not towing, but I suspect when hooked up to a trailer, 10 - 12 is about as good as it gets, at least on a gasser (and diesel doesn't appeal to me at all, for a lot of reasons.)

 

[XJLI]

Yes, the logical, reasonable part of my brain knows you're right, of course. I think I was still a little bit pissed off when I started this thread - I'm sure you know the feeling of "Screw it, I'm done with this POS!"

I've had that feeling with both of my modded XJs, my Subaru, my brand new VW (not bc it broke, bc it was too slow and boring), and even though I loved it to death, my Rover. I've never once been mad at my Chevy for any reason other than I didn't (and sometimes still don't) like it. I like driving something different, but this is the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned. And the nicest thing about the platform is you could be anywhere in the country and get literally any part in 24 hours. You got a BRAND NEW GM TRANS the next day. Imagine if you were driving a Land Cruiser, or Xterra, or whatever and broke down where you did and bc you broke something and were dead in the water. I try and tell that to all the "I need an overland vehicle!" people when everyone suggests some random Vanagon or LC80. Every backwoods hokey pokey shop in every town in this country can work work on a full size domestic truck, and they more than likely have the parts on the shelf. Three times I was working on my Rover and discovered I needed to replace something "while I'm in there" and that was a 2 day wait at the soonest.

 

[rayra]

The new vehicle costs really are a financial hit. Missus replaced her '05 Tahoe with a new Equinox that gets more than double the fuel economy and with gas here now well over $4/gal, it 'saves' $2k/yr in fuel costs. But at the cost of ~$500/mo in payments and annualized registration fees. Getting a new vehicle for fuel economy is a losing proposition. Getting a new vehicle to replace on eat the end of its life AND gets better economy might be a good deal.
I have a 'pseudo-nephew', Chief in the USN, his wife's a 100% disabled vet, former SeaBee, who's always complaining about being broke. With their pay and benefits they should be in fat city. But he buys a new car every year. Snowballs the debt until he's strapped, digs out, then does it again. I keep trying to point out to him how much money he's throwing away every year in depreciation losses. He doesn't want to hear it.
And yes, you could buy a new trans every year for far less than what an equivalent vehicle will cost you. But the 'trust' factor has an indeterminate value of its own. My '85 pickup was givign me fits with some electrical gremlins in the mid 90s, randomly losing ignition. Took months to get it resolved, burned up all me 'free' AAA tows and then some, before that mess was over. But I still have it. 350k mi, 2nd motor, 3rd trans and in fact have spent the last year freshening up everything prior to moving it down to my aged folks place where it will be put to good use in the next few years. It's just been sitting in my driveway since I bought my very-used Sub. Speakign of that, my Sub's rear wipe just crapped out today. There's a ratcheting click noise coming from back there when I turn it on and no wiper motion.

 

[Martinjmpr]

$850 plus new bearings. I know a guy outside the Springs who does this kind of thing for a living. He regeared my Explorer and considering having my Expedition done as well.

You won’t get much a return on your newly purchased $3500 transmission if you decide to sell. A 2004 Suburban with a new transmission won’t sell for much more than a 2004 Suburban with a used transmission. Is the warranty transferable?

I’d say at this point: in for a penny, in for a pound. In other words: you’re stuck with this thing.

Tom I may have to talk to you off-line about the gear swap. My thought is that if this is a wear item anyway (at least on the rear) then it might benefit me to regear. Certainly crawling up to Eisenhower Tunnel at 25 MPH while the transmission jumps between 1st and 2nd can't be good for its longevity. For all I know that may be the cause of the pump failure.

 

[Halligan]

If you like the Suburban I'll ask you these questions. Is the engine is running good? Are the body and frame solid? How about the electronics? My wife had a 2004 Tahoe and she drove it for 11 years. Now my father owns it and it still runs great. We always liked how it drove/rode and my wife really misses it.

You got a bum rebuild on your 2nd transmission and now have a GM rebuild which is probably a better quality unit with a warranty. You added a cooler so that should help keep the fluid cool and in good shape. I would say keep driving it and for good measure swap out the rear differential oil with a good synthetic gear oil. While your at change the transfer case and front axle fluid. Is the truck due for a coolant flush? If yes do that also. Going forward you could replace the trans and rear axle fluid every year as an extra insurance policy for longevity.

 

[tacobronco]

In fact, I was all set to come back after our little camping trip and write a glowing review of the trans cooler I installed. The difference was dramatic. On passes where I previously would hit 210 or 215 degrees it now would hit 160 max. And not only would it not get as hot, but as soon as I crested the pass and started back down it would drop dramatically. I actually think it only hit 160 once and never went higher. Even climbing to Eisenhower Tunnel, a long, slow climb to 11,000', I think it may have only gotten to 157 or so. Normal "cruising" temps were so low I was almost worried about the trans being too cold - cruising on flat ground it would routinely stay around 105 to 115.

Any thought that the installation of the new cooler might have caused the pump failure? Debris in the new cooler? If it did fail just after the installation, seems like a bit of a coincidence.

 

[Binksman]

As a Dodge guy, I know all about their automatic transmission- only, parking break feature (mispelling intentional). My first full size I had the trans rebuilt a month after I bought it. The guy who rebuilt turn out to literally be the town drunk who took it back to repair some massive leaks under warranty. Trans rebuild #2 happened because all the RTV sealant the drunk used to stop the leaks ended up contaminating the solenoids which caused some clutches to fry. Trans #3 happened because put 100k on trans #2. With trans #3 I finally had enough first had research, more knowledgeable friends, and finally gained a better understanding of vehicles to realize the benefit of new vs rebuilt and of keeping auto temps cool.

OP, if you've got a good trans cooling system in place now and a new trans, go rock it. By the time you need another trans you will probably be needing an engine too, so at that point it might be better in your long term interests to buy a newer vehicle.

In my case, trans #3 was sold when I parted ouf the truck. I took all those lessons and applied them to a Grand Cherokee with a similar model trans that someone gave me because they fried the trans. A low mileage trans later and the cooling system from the old fullsize truck and I ended up putting another 70k on that Jeep.

 

[rayra]

That's the kicker on my pickup, too, I'd just plopped down ~$1300 on a rebuilt THM350 for it when I began looking for used Sub. Wasn't driving it much after the replacement and almost not at all since I got the Sub, so I didn't even get to put some hard use on it before the rebuild warranty expired. Don't think I put 6-7k mi on it.


On the filter and pump, i'm 95% sure the pump draws only from the sump pan via the pan filter. But I'm not sure where the return line from the cooler puts that fluid I used a small pipe cutter myself when I trimmed my factory lines, looking to reduce the chance of anything getting in there. I've never changed my filter for the 33k mi I've driven the vehicle and from the looks of the pan it never has been. I tried the drain plug a couple times and couldnt' get it to budge and didn't trust my Bullwinkle strength to not wreck things trying bigger cheater bars or an air hammer. When I did my partial fluid changes I did it JiffyLube style and siphoned the fluid out the dipstick tube.

eta this diagram raises more questions than it answers -
https://ww2-secure.justanswer.com/uploads/GG/ggrote1/2013-02-08_181747_1.jpg

but it seems the pump itself should have been safe from any debris contamination.


Martin, when you're bogging up a grade in 1st or 2nd at 25mph, what are your RPMs? The problem might be excess fluid pressure rather than temps. Too high fluid pressure would kill your pump, which is ironic since it's supposed to be the pump producing the pressures in the first place.
chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://www.atreman.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/4L60E-Checking-Line-Pressure.pdf

 

[Buddha.]

... crawling up to Eisenhower Tunnel at 25 MPH while the transmission jumps between 1st and 2nd can't be good for its longevity. For all I know that may be the cause of the pump failure.

I really would have thought a suburban would do better than that. My chevy 6.0 doesn't make much more power than your 5.3 and it did that pass at 45mph with a combined truck/trailer weight of 18,000lbs. Maybe you're loaded up heavier than you think?

EDIT:
Do you tow in third or fourth gear?

On the filter and pump, i'm 95% sure the pump draws only from the sump pan via the pan filter. But I'm not sure where the return line from the cooler puts that fluid I used a small pipe cutter myself when I trimmed my factory lines, looking to reduce the chance of anything getting in there. I've never changed my filter for the 33k mi I've driven the vehicle and from the looks of the pan it never has been. I tried the drain plug a couple times and couldnt' get it to budge and didn't trust my Bullwinkle strength to not wreck things trying bigger cheater bars or an air hammer.

You've got a drain plug on your transmission oil pan?

 

[BPD53]

High time you became a mechanic.

Transmission Bench website will help.

Pull the 4l60e and rebuild that sucker yourself. You'll learn more about your truck and not be intimidated by it anymore.

Consider a gear ratio swap after the transmission rebuild and you'll be fine. I'm running a 5.3 with a 4l60e and 4.10s. I tow in 3rd gear at 65 mph and my rpms are at the bottom end of the power band. I prefer to rev my 5.3 to the power band because below 2200 rpms it sucks.

My transmission and engine temps stay cooler when I keep the tranny in 3rd gear. I added the largest tranny cooler I could fit and my temps stay below 175 degrees even in the summer. A piece of cardboard in the winter stops any worries about over cooling.

Granted, I don't tow as much as you but my setup works great.

Keep the Suburban. Debt is overrated.

Good Luck.

 

[rayra]

You've got a drain plug on your transmission oil pan?

Yep. Imagine my disappointment after 30yrs+ of spilling trans fluid everywhere working on THM400 and THM350 transmissions to finally have a drain plug and not be able to get it loose.

 

[zoomad75]

Man a lot of 4l60e hate going on here. Pretty normal, but for the application, it's just fine. Much like others stated, the rebuilt unit was probably flawed or not done quite right. Plus reading over the 5 pages not much was stated about flushing the cooler during the first rebuild, even if it was only the stock one. Right there could be a source of the problem. If the cooler was not flushed it could have been restricted that would have caused higher operating temps prior to installing the larger aftermarket cooler.

The GM rebuilt unit normally requires a transmission cooler flush prior to installing in order to make sure the warranty is in tact. IF the install was done at a GM dealer they would have recorded the actual flow stats from the required GM flush machine. I wouldn't have any doubt in a GM rebuild. We've installed 4l60e's and never had a case of one coming back in for any warranty work at the dealer. If towing regularly I'd change the fluid and filter sooner than recommended. With keeping an eye on trans temps. Anything north of 250 degrees is where ATF oxidizes/breaks down. 210-220 under load isn't uncommon, but it is the signal to gear down to get more rpm.

The idea to change gearing is not a bad one. The 5.3 needs all the help it can and the larger tires is moving in the wrong direction so going up numerically is going to bring it back to what it was with stock sized tires or a little better. That will keep the rev happy 5.3 more in it's power curve and using more leverage to get the job done.

What I say next might piss off the nay-sayers of the 4L60e, but this is just my experience. Any 4L60e that has come into our shop with a major failure has had one common thread between them. High mileage and little to no maintenance done. Not saying this was the case for the OP's first failure at all, but we get many with issues that came in merely requesting us to flush the trans fluid. When asked why (we've learned the hard way not to blindly proceed with that request) we find out there is some kind of performance issue. Talk to any transmission professional and they will tell you changing fluid or flushing will not fix any performance issue. If anything doing a flush on a high mileage trans will doom it for failure sooner than later. I've got a 02 ZR2 S10 Blazer in the shop right now for that very reason. It had a fluid/filter change done by a buddy because it was starting to slip in 3rd and 4th. Within a week of that, it came to us barely able to move forward on it's own. Sure enough the new fluid smells cooked and it needs a full rebuild or reman replacement.

I'm not saying 4L60e's are bulletproof by any stretch in stock form. But with the larger aftermarket cooler and watching the temps it should go just as long or better than the original trans. The better gearing would just add the extra insurance. I would drop it out of 4th on the big passes though. Even with the gearing so the engine is up in the rev band for better torque.

 

[Lykos]

Man a lot of 4l60e hate going on here. Pretty normal, but for the application, it's just fine. Much like others stated, the rebuilt unit was probably flawed or not done quite right. Plus reading over the 5 pages not much was stated about flushing the cooler during the first rebuild, even if it was only the stock one. Right there could be a source of the problem. If the cooler was not flushed it could have been restricted that would have caused higher operating temps prior to installing the larger aftermarket cooler.

The GM rebuilt unit normally requires a transmission cooler flush prior to installing in order to make sure the warranty is in tact. IF the install was done at a GM dealer they would have recorded the actual flow stats from the required GM flush machine. I wouldn't have any doubt in a GM rebuild. We've installed 4l60e's and never had a case of one coming back in for any warranty work at the dealer. If towing regularly I'd change the fluid and filter sooner than recommended. With keeping an eye on trans temps. Anything north of 250 degrees is where ATF oxidizes/breaks down. 210-220 under load isn't uncommon, but it is the signal to gear down to get more rpm.

The idea to change gearing is not a bad one. The 5.3 needs all the help it can and the larger tires is moving in the wrong direction so going up numerically is going to bring it back to what it was with stock sized tires or a little better. That will keep the rev happy 5.3 more in it's power curve and using more leverage to get the job done.

What I say next might piss off the nay-sayers of the 4L60e, but this is just my experience. Any 4L60e that has come into our shop with a major failure has had one common thread between them. High mileage and little to no maintenance done. Not saying this was the case for the OP's first failure at all, but we get many with issues that came in merely requesting us to flush the trans fluid. When asked why (we've learned the hard way not to blindly proceed with that request) we find out there is some kind of performance issue. Talk to any transmission professional and they will tell you changing fluid or flushing will not fix any performance issue. If anything doing a flush on a high mileage trans will doom it for failure sooner than later. I've got a 02 ZR2 S10 Blazer in the shop right now for that very reason. It had a fluid/filter change done by a buddy because it was starting to slip in 3rd and 4th. Within a week of that, it came to us barely able to move forward on it's own. Sure enough the new fluid smells cooked and it needs a full rebuild or reman replacement.

I'm not saying 4L60e's are bulletproof by any stretch in stock form. But with the larger aftermarket cooler and watching the temps it should go just as long or better than the original trans. The better gearing would just add the extra insurance. I would drop it out of 4th on the big passes though. Even with the gearing so the engine is up in the rev band for better torque.

I have a relatively new 4l60 in Burb. What do you recommend for service and at what intervals?
The shop that installed it suggested a filter change every 30 to 40 k and only to replace what fluid is lost when you drop the pan.

 

[zoomad75]

I have a relatively new 4l60 in Burb. What do you recommend for service and at what intervals?
The shop that installed it suggested a filter change every 30 to 40 k and only to replace what fluid is lost when you drop the pan.

They are in the right range. The more towing, the lower on the range they gave you. Stick with Dex 6 fluid as it's synthetic.

 

[rayra]

@Martinjmpr don't forget that if you go with a gear swap, you've got to do both axles.