"Double down or fold" - Part 2 ...

[Martinjmpr]

So rather than resurrect my old post from a few months ago, I thought I'd start a follow up post. This was the original:

https://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/that-age-old-dilemma-double-down-or-fold.201358/

Where I posted the question of whether I should "double down or fold" on my 2004 Suburban with (then) 180,000 miles on the clock.

After some back and forth, the general consensus was that I should "hold what I got" and just do routine maintenance since the GMT 800 platform was a pretty solid one.

Then, on Monday, coming back from a 4 day campout at Dinosaur National Monument, this happened:



Yes, that's me and contrary to the message on my shirt, I am NOT a happy camper! My truck is on the flatbed because the transmission died with absolutely no warning while driving 65mph on a very busy US Highway 40 about 1 mile West of Dinosaur, CO.

I was towing a trailer at the time, and fortunately for me the tow truck was able to pull my trailer as well. They got us set up at the KOA in Vernal and took the truck to the local transmission shop.

We got home to Denver a few hours ago with a brand new transmission and my wallet lighter by almost $3500.

Of course, I went through something similar in August of 2016. At that time (also coming home from a camping trip with a trailer and 2 kayaks on the roof) I only lost gears 3 and 4 so I was able to "limp" home in 2nd. This time I wasn't so lucky - lost every gear (according to the mechanic, the pump failed - again with zero warning, no noises, anything.) At that time I figured "rebuilt" by a reputable company was as good as new so that's what I went with. It had a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty, both of which are long expired.

The good news is: The new transmission (I went with new because rebuilding would have meant an extra 3 days or so waiting for them to do the work) came with a 3 year/100k warranty from GM.

The bad news is that it failed in the first place. To quote my wife (who hung in there like a trooper, I should add), "We can't keep doing this every 2 years."

So, I find myself at a crossroads. Really, I have two courses of action to consider: Long term and short term.

Short term: Of course, I'm keeping the 'Burb -for now. With all the money I just sunk into it, it would be foolish for me to dump it right away.

But this latest failure has made me consider that the thing about gambling is - sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. And while I can be pretty confident in the new transmission, I have to wonder, what is next to fail?

There's also a scary thought: Two days before this, I was in a remote part of Northwestern Colorado (the Sand Wash Basin, for those familiar with the area.) At times I was on an undeveloped two-track and probably 20 miles or more from a paved road, and 50 miles or more from any town big enough to have either tow service or a repair shop. True, we were with another vehicle, but if the trans had failed there, the cost to get the truck to a shop would have been ruinous.

So I'm curious to pick the minds of those more experienced: What causes a pump to fail on a rebuilt trans with less than 30k on it?

But while I'm keeping the truck in the short term, I have to admit (grudgingly) that maybe it's time to start shopping for a replacement. And this is also where I'd like to tap into the ExPo Hive Mind for advice.

With 2 blown transmissions in 30 months and 30,000 miles, I have to consider that maybe, just maybe, I'm a little bit harder on transmissions than I thought I was.

So here's my question for the group: Should I consider a 3/4 ton truck for my next vehicle?

Here's the rig I'm currently pulling:



"On paper", a half-ton truck should be more than adequate to pull a 3500lb trailer. But living in Colorado I end up pulling this over 11,000' passes on a fairly regular basis. Maybe I'm just taxing the 1/2 ton platform more than it should be taxed.

All things being equal, I'd prefer a 1/2 ton for size, ease of driving, more comfort options and MPG.

But as the wife says, I can't keep blowing transmissions.

So what's the consensus? Move up to a 3/4 ton or are my problems more likely related to the fact that my truck is 15 years old, with a 4 speed tranny? Would a newer domestic half ton likely be enough for the (apparently) hard way I use my truck?

 

[6gun]

I would say 3/4-1T is the easy answer but I'd do everything in my power to keep the new trans happy in the meantime. HD cooling, proper fluid, and possibly even look at differential gearing to help reduce strain on the trans.

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[Ducky's Dad]

The GM half-ton transmissions are notoriously unreliable, but the rebuilt one should have lasted longer. My '98 K1500 is approaching 200M and I expected to need a new trans by now, but so far, so good. I am, however, getting close to blowing the rear diff for the second time. Also exploded the rear diff on another GM half-ton SUV years ago so I can't reasonably be described as an easy driver. Sometimes it's the luck of the draw, so it may not be your fault. Re the 3/4-ton question? The answer is an absolute YES. when the time comes. A 3/4-ton Sub is the same size as a half-ton Sub. Enough of the components are better that is worth the extra cost and weight.

 

[Martinjmpr]

Just to be clear I would be getting a crew cab truck, NOT another Suburban. Current strong contender would be a RAM 2500 with the gasser V8. I’d also consider Ford and GM but both seem to be well above my self imposed $33k price for the 3/4t versions.

I MIGHT consider a 2500 Suburban if I can find one with low miles but that seems unlikely.


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[TeamKarkos]

I used to tow with a Suburban quite a bit and heat is the enemy. Larger cooler, synthetic fluid, trans temp gauge, and never tow in OD were always the keys to longevity. That being said my old Burban has over 300K with the new owner and the trans has held up far better than the rear diff. I blame the Whipple Supercharger and the new owners heavy foot. I would look into a trans cooler, shift kit and temp gauge at the very least if you keep it.

 

[TeamKarkos]

I used to tow with a Suburban quite a bit and heat is the enemy. Larger cooler, synthetic fluid, trans temp gauge, and never tow in OD were always the keys to longevity. That being said my old Burban has over 300K with the new owner and the trans has held up far better than the rear diff. I blame the Whipple Supercharger and the new owners heavy foot. I would look into a trans cooler, shift kit and temp gauge at the very least if you keep it.

 

[OverlandNA]

So I'm curious to pick the minds of those more experienced: What causes a pump to fail on a rebuilt trans with less than 30k on it?

When they rebuild a trans they put in new steels & clutches, rubbers & seals, inspect the hard parts & test solenoids, maybe put in a reman torque convertor.
Hard parts (planetary gears) & pumps get changed if needed. When it leaves the shop they are gambling it will last out the warranty.

 

[xvz12]

Any way you look at it, it's gonna coat you money.....buy new, you got a car payment every month. Keep the Burb, no car payment, but plan on having a not-so-pleasant surprise every once in a while. Either way, ya gotta pay. My TV( & daily driver) has 215k on it now, on its second transmission, with expectations of another trans-plant (LOL) in the relatively near future. 2 trannys in 4 years, will cost me WAYYY less than 4 years of payments.
I guess its like the old saying, "you pays yer money, & takes yer chances". Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[TeamKarkos]

I used to tow with a Suburban quite a bit and heat is the enemy. Larger cooler, synthetic fluid, trans temp gauge, and never tow in OD were always the keys to longevity. That being said my old Burban has over 300K with the new owner and the trans has held up far better than the rear diff. I blame the Whipple Supercharger and the new owners heavy foot. I would look into a trans cooler, shift kit and temp gauge at the very least if you keep it.

 

[billiebob]

Would a newer domestic half ton likely be enough for the (apparently) hard way I use my truck?

Honestly, I'd buy an older 1970s 3/4 ton with a clutch. They are bullet proof and you can find a perfect one for under $30K. I absolutely hate everything made over the past 10 years,,, and they keep getting worse. The new Wrangler has a 48V battery which is connected to the rad to keep it hot and connected to the AC to cool it.

 

[rayra]

I'd say you got ripped off twice, both the trans that failed and the replacement you just put in. $3500? Shame about the pump. What were your temps when it failed? Anecdotally, it seems 275F seems to be the death point for 4L60E transmissions. Differential heating kills the pump seal, kills the pump. I read about that many times. If you are climbing those grades and riding it hard in third or even 2nd, there's very little temp margin with the engine riding the boiling point and the cooling system doing likewise.

And you just put in that trans cooler, for this trip. What were your indicated trans temps, did you see any improvement in that regard? I'd have been watching the gauge like a hawk.

At this point I really don't know what to suggest, other than you need a beefier transmission for what you are doing, where and how you are doing it. You're going to want a 3/4 ton and the higher tier trans.
You probably might even want a newer vehicle with 6- or even 8-speed transmission, in the hopes of the trans running in a less stressful band. AND keep adding increased cooling. Especially if you continue hauling that trailer and gear.

Too, with your luck, I'd quit the family solo trips in the backside of beyond or add a satellite radio or rescue beacon. Or get schooled and equipped in HF Ham radio.

Don't know what else to say, you've had the worst run I've seen


eta hell you can rent a suburban for $750/wk from Enterprise. in fact maybe consider that with a quad cab pickup for your next trip. See if that config works for you, before you go out and buy one.

 

[Martinjmpr]

I'd say you got ripped off twice, both the trans that failed and the replacement you just put in. $3500?

Yeah, the price seemed high to me, too but they more or less had me over a barrel. I was in Vernal, Utah, which isn't exactly a metropolis. Arranging a tow to Denver for the Suburban and renting a truck big enough to pull the trailer would likely have cost me close to anything I could have saved by having the truck fixed around here, and there's also the cost in time (arranging the tow, arranging the rental, setting up the trans repair once I got back to Denver, etc) and my time is valuable, too. So paying their cost was the "least bad" option for me.

Unlike the previous one, this isn't a rebuilt, it's a new transmission with a 3 year/100k warranty. So that at least gives me some breathing room.

Shame about the pump. What were your temps when it failed? Anecdotally, it seems 275F seems to be the death point for 4L60E transmissions. Differential heating kills the pump seal, kills the pump. I read about that many times. If you are climbing those grades and riding it hard in third or even 2nd, there's very little temp margin with the engine riding the boiling point and the cooling system doing likewise.

And you just put in that trans cooler, for this trip. What were your indicated trans temps, did you see any improvement in that regard? I'd have been watching the gauge like a hawk.

Yeah - so about that: At the time the trans failed the temp was no higher than 140. It may have been lower.

In fact, I was all set to come back after our little camping trip and write a glowing review of the trans cooler I installed. The difference was dramatic. On passes where I previously would hit 210 or 215 degrees it now would hit 160 max. And not only would it not get as hot, but as soon as I crested the pass and started back down it would drop dramatically. I actually think it only hit 160 once and never went higher. Even climbing to Eisenhower Tunnel, a long, slow climb to 11,000', I think it may have only gotten to 157 or so. Normal "cruising" temps were so low I was almost worried about the trans being too cold - cruising on flat ground it would routinely stay around 105 to 115.

My only thought is that maybe my previous hard use of the truck (where temps had commonly exceeded 200) had somehow damaged the transmission leading the failure. Either that or I allowed some kind of contamination to get into the trans when I installed the cooler?

Too, with your luck, I'd quit the family solo trips in the backside of beyond or add a satellite radio or rescue beacon. Or get schooled and equipped in HF Ham radio.

Heh heh, well, we're not going to quit exploring so we'll have to come up with another solution. We were with another vehicle in the Sand Wash Basin so it wouldn't have been a life-or-death situation (for that matter, we always have food, water and adequate clothing when we go "exploring" anyway. That's one of the things I like about the Truck Fridge, it rides in the Suburban all the time.)

Don't know what else to say, you've had the worst run I've seen

I know I'm not the only member of the "replaced two transmissions club" here but we are a small group, fortunately.

eta hell you can rent a suburban for $750/wk from Enterprise. in fact maybe consider that with a quad cab pickup for your next trip. See if that config works for you, before you go out and buy one.

You're reading my mind! I hate the thought of something as big/heavy/wasteful as a 3/4 ton truck for daily use but neither the wife nor I plan to slow down our camping schedule (for example this year we are taking the camper out 13 times, most of those will require a trip over a high pass) so it may be necessary. Until 2017 I had a separate 'daily driver' for driving to work but I got rid of it because it seemed unnecessary when I only work in the office 3 days a week and my commute is only 10 miles. If I end up with a 3/4 ton I'll probably have to figure a way to cut fuel costs, either by riding a motorcycle to work on nice days or driving the wife's CR-V since she doesn't work every day.

But before I do that, I'll likely try renting one for a week to see if it's practical.

 

[XJLI]

180k isn't a lot on that truck. If a transmission is your only failure point, I don't see it being a huge issue. I don't think your first rebuild was quality which is why it failed, and it sucks you had to pay $3500 for a new trans the second time bc of a bad situation. I'm on almost 150k on my original trans, and when the time comes its getting a beefy rebuild.. HD everything. If I was towing regularly I'd be in a modern heavy 1/2 ton with a 6, 8, or 10 speed with big gears or an older 3/4 ton. Is your trailer 3500lbs dry? Remember your payload as well, which I'm sure you're getting close to loaded up camping. That isn't a lot for a 1/2 ton per say, but its a lot for a 4L60, especially with a highway gear (not sure what your truck has).

BUT If you don't plan on slowing down your camping, you should get a bigger truck. My $.02. Leaves you open to upgrade the camper in the future too. And with that short of a commute I don't think a daily is necessary, but thats just me. I commute 50 miles a day in my 1500 @ 16 mpg. Buying a cheap commuter would take 2-3 years to break even and I like driving my truck. I'd find yourself a crewcab GMT900 Silverado with the 6.0 and 6 speed auto. Thats a bulletproof combo available way under your budget and the six speed is a little easier on fuel that the old four speed.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I hate the thought of something as big/heavy/wasteful as a 3/4 ton truck for daily use

Seems to me this is the conundrum because what you're asking of a 1/2 ton is too much. This time it could have been a bad rebuild but either way you're at the margin of what the truck can do.

Just my $0.02, you need a truck that can do what you ask of it and if that means you daily drive a 3/4 then that's the price you pay.

However, if you can swing it financially having a cheap daily driver would be nice not only to save gas and parking headache. When you beat up your truck like we do it's somewhat inevitable you'll break or at least require following the severe duty maintenance, requiring more down time between trips. So having a way to get around when the truck is down probably should be factored into budgeting.

Not to mention driving your truck on short trips and in traffic isn't doing it any favors either.

Generally speaking, I'm always in favor of knowing the issues. Yeah, the transmission is a real pain but at least you know the history of it and the truck. If I were in your shoes I'd probably try to figure out a way to fit a transmission for a 3/4 in that Suburban. I'm not at all familiar with GM but seems like that I'm betting someone has figured out.

 

[XJLI]

If I were in your shoes I'd probably try to figure out a way to fit a transmission for a 3/4 in that Suburban. I'm not at all familiar with GM but seems like that I'm betting someone has figured out.

Been done a few times, pretty sure there are 'kits' and harness available off the shelf. IMHO tho, a high end rebuild of the 4L60 is easier, cheaper, and overall a better idea. The 60 has a taller first gear than the 80 too.