Finatic Angler
Adventurer
Just so we are clear are we talking yeti coolers or solar generators?
EarthRoamer XV-JP "Northwest Edition"
- Thread starter WhereTheHellIsJames?
- Start date
sarconcepts
Adventurer
and with all that said.. ..
Mike, i think it may be time to take a vacation from all these rubes & clear your head for a while.
those of us who care, know where to find you
Mike, i think it may be time to take a vacation from all these rubes & clear your head for a while.
those of us who care, know where to find you
mk216v
Der Chef der Fahrzeuge
With due respect, you are pretty far off with your interpretation. I know it's a lot of pages to read thru, but here's the more accurate skinny from what I've gathered from 108pgs;
- Mike bought an Earthroamer Jeep "XV-JP" awhile back
- Didn't like a lot of things about it(namely that in the wet PacNW, when you closed up the goofy Earthroamer-designed-tent-contraption, all your gear inside the cabin became soaked) so tore it apart and changed how the roof opened and a bunch of other stuff
- <After the last iteration of interior by woodcrafter Paul Jensen--the zebrawood and copper roof inlays weren't Mike's choice, Paul added those in artistic fashion--Mike felt it still needed more work to be a true 2 person camper with more efficient layout, since the cabin was only a tiny 5x5x5. Mike respectfully spoke to Bill Swails of Earthroamer to see if Bill wanted to work on an enlarged Earthroamer cabin. Bill said no thanks, but Dion Kranz of Red Cannon Expedition who used to work at Earthroamer, and built the last of the XV-JP's, #14, incorporating other improvements not seen in early versions, has been talking about taking the XV-JP one step further and making HIS OWN unique camper(read; not an Earthroamer). Dion is ok to go ahead with this, and since you want a larger XV-JP Mike, talk to Dion about the project(what Dion came to call the "Darien">
- Dion wanted to turn his passion into a business and start a company....yet as it's come out now, he had absolutely no capital to do so. He delayed the project(it's sat the same for 7+months), and lied about the status, meanwhile trying to find some sort of investor(venture capitalist?) to turn his business dream into an actual company who could produce these enlarged cabin Jeep campers.
- Mike teamed up with the guy(Dion) who helped put together the last XV-JP, #14
- Dion tried to buy the molds from Bill Swails for pennies on the dollar, but didn't have the money to do so....plus, it wouldn't have made much sense to buy molds which are for the original/smaller XV-JP cabin, since Dion wanted to build a larger version, and similarly Mike was after that larger cabin design
- Mike and Dion drew up a very specific contract of work to be done to modify the existing XV-JP cabin into a larger cabin. Mike sent Dion his jeep (to cut apart, finish and then make a mold of for future Red Cannon cabins to sell), with money to buy parts for the new cabin layout, then also money for the new cabin molds(to help Dion get the cabins going, otherwise once Mike got his Jeep back, Dion would never be able to make another)
- Dion Kranz from Red Cannon Expedition tore apart the jeep, burned up all Mike's cash Mike sent for the project, NOT to buy parts for Mike's Jeep or to buy molds for the new larger cabin, as laid out in their contract, but for Red Cannon Expedition's OWN costs (I can only assume business expenses like rent, utilities, etc??). The only parts difference I see in the recent picture Mike posted of his Jeep was a front LED light bar. So $$five-figures for a light bar for the Jeep, an 8" fiberglass extension on the original XV-JP cabin, and the rest Dion Kranz from Red Cannon Expedition used for his OWN use?
:squint: - Now Mike is going to pick up the jeep and what's left of it
Mike, is that a correct synopsis? Feel free to clarify any points if needed as it may not all be 110% correct.
Last edited:
mhiscox
Expedition Leader
Jeremy's supportive writeup is a little bit off in some of the details . . . and I never talked to EarthRoamer about creating an enlarged cabin--they'd have just pointed out that they do, in fact, make the much bigger, if pricier, XV-LT.
I am grateful for this supportive explanation, and always very grateful for those who are standing up for me and the Jeep in the face of comments made with no or misunderstood information. Continued thanks to you all.
Now going forward, I'd encourage you all to let the backstory rest. Here's an authoritative summary of what happened, and it's probably all that a faithful reader needs to remember.
I was a customer of Red Cannon Expedition, a company I hired to make several modifications to my EarthRoamer. My motivations for doing so seemed good at the time, but they no longer matter to the situation. EarthRoamer's part no long matters. Even Dion's dream of making a lot of Wrangler campers no longer matters.
I was never an investor in the project and never had a stake in whether Red Cannon would or could make a business out of making Jeep campers. Under our contract, Red Cannon was to perform certain tasks and receive some money to buy specified components. But I did not give RCE enough money to completely remake the camper into the prototype Dion wanted to build to see if his design and production techniques were suitable for production. That money was to come from other investors Dion thought he had, and additional ones he would get.
When the money from the investors did not happen, RCE used the money I'd provided on things different from what was in the agreements and successfully delayed my understanding of the situation in hopes that an investment from someone else would let them proceed with my Jeep and all would then be well. That didn't happen. And since Dion, thinking last summer that he did have a major investor onboard, had prematurely taken my Jeep totally apart, there wasn't going to be any happy ending.
I have hopes of getting my Jeep back and making something else out of it. Dion made some serious mistakes in how he conducted business and how he interacted with me, but given there are 100,000-plus members of ExPo, I'm sure there are hundreds of others who, as customers, have lost money when a business failed to deliver on their promises. While I'm not happy about the money I lost, and even less happy about the Jeep being totally disassembled, no amount of discussion is going to get it put back together.
The brief story above is accurate, and it's all that really matters at this point. And though I am very grateful for all of the empathy and good wishes (and hope they continue), I humbly suggest that there's not much more to be gained from speculating about, or even restating, the history of this debacle or the motivations of those involved.
The next newsworthy event will be a report on whether I have straightforwardly recovered the Jeep and its equipment. You'll know shortly after I do.
----------------------
P.S.--And if anyone needs specific information about what happened before posting an opinion, I'd encourage them to send me a private message, which I will be happy to answer.
Last edited:
Whats Next...
Dion,
At the time of typing his there are 1078 posts on this thread and over 450 thousand views... History has been written and the only thing you have any control over is the future. Anybody that has done product development knows that it is a very tough job. Those of us who have started and grown businesses know that is also a tough job. Specifically to this topic, Bill and his team at Earthroamer did not see a clear path to commercial success with the Jeep based camper so only built a limited number of them. I am typing this to drive home the point that the road you headed down with Red Cannon was going to be a rough one. The creation of a fully functional prototype was going to take a combination of vision, talent, hard work, and capital that did not come together for you.
I can not comment to the nature of the contract you had with Mike nor the extent of the communications over the last 8 months but I have bought several vehicles from him and have never dealt with an individual as clear, concise and detailed in execution of these sorts of things. Its hard to imagine he would be any less so with an asset as valuable as the XV-JP.
A casual reading of your posts on this topic suggest you picked the Jeep up in July, drove it back home and immediately started to disassemble. You ordered some resin and cloth and went to town on a water tank towards the end of July. The cabin extension was looking to be progressing nicely on August 14th... Then nothing except to claim thousands of dollars and thousands of hours invested in Mikes Jeep a few days back ??? Giving you the benefit of the doubt on the cost of supplies and parts can you briefly describe where the thousands of hours of labor ended up. Please understand that building and equipping a shop does not count as work done on the Jeep. Hours spent thinking about concepts, building patterns, checking templates, and making molds does not count as work on Mikes Jeep. That activity and expense is/was for the benefit of Red Cannon... How you and Mike resolve this is not the business of this board but I have a few suggestions for you.
First, you can bet everybody who is following this post is going to check back into often to see how things are going. The best way for you to demonstrate that you are not a complete fraud is to work with Mike to make sure the pick up of the Jeep and all associated equipment goes exceedingly well. If you truly are a pro who had any chance of making a go at this endeavor, all parts and hardware will be boxed, labeled and on the pallet racking evident in your post on 7/23/15. I cant imagine everything will fit back in the Jeep so cataloging whats there and giving Mike a clear picture of what he can fit in the Jeep for the ride back to Portland is in order. The Jeep itself should be assembled back as completely as possible (unless Mike has made other arrangements) be clean and ready to travel. Extra points if you pack up and secure all the associated equipment before Mike arrives.
Next, please don't take this the wrong way but if you truly do have thousands of hours invested into the Jeep and the progress as shown in the pictures is accurate you were never going to make this a commercial success. The fact that you were able to learn this lesson at significant financial loss to somebody else (Mike) is a bonus for you (Sorry Mike). Appreciate that you might not be as much of a victim here as your "Tesla" post implies.
Last and most important, You and nobody but you will determine how the final chapter of Red Cannon is written. Owning past mistakes gives you a chance to learn from them. Following through on commitments merely to prove to yourself that you can is more valuable than any cash an investor could throw at you. Standing up and doing the right thing no matter how tough is always going to pay dividends no matter how it may seem at the time.
Dion,
At the time of typing his there are 1078 posts on this thread and over 450 thousand views... History has been written and the only thing you have any control over is the future. Anybody that has done product development knows that it is a very tough job. Those of us who have started and grown businesses know that is also a tough job. Specifically to this topic, Bill and his team at Earthroamer did not see a clear path to commercial success with the Jeep based camper so only built a limited number of them. I am typing this to drive home the point that the road you headed down with Red Cannon was going to be a rough one. The creation of a fully functional prototype was going to take a combination of vision, talent, hard work, and capital that did not come together for you.
I can not comment to the nature of the contract you had with Mike nor the extent of the communications over the last 8 months but I have bought several vehicles from him and have never dealt with an individual as clear, concise and detailed in execution of these sorts of things. Its hard to imagine he would be any less so with an asset as valuable as the XV-JP.
A casual reading of your posts on this topic suggest you picked the Jeep up in July, drove it back home and immediately started to disassemble. You ordered some resin and cloth and went to town on a water tank towards the end of July. The cabin extension was looking to be progressing nicely on August 14th... Then nothing except to claim thousands of dollars and thousands of hours invested in Mikes Jeep a few days back ??? Giving you the benefit of the doubt on the cost of supplies and parts can you briefly describe where the thousands of hours of labor ended up. Please understand that building and equipping a shop does not count as work done on the Jeep. Hours spent thinking about concepts, building patterns, checking templates, and making molds does not count as work on Mikes Jeep. That activity and expense is/was for the benefit of Red Cannon... How you and Mike resolve this is not the business of this board but I have a few suggestions for you.
First, you can bet everybody who is following this post is going to check back into often to see how things are going. The best way for you to demonstrate that you are not a complete fraud is to work with Mike to make sure the pick up of the Jeep and all associated equipment goes exceedingly well. If you truly are a pro who had any chance of making a go at this endeavor, all parts and hardware will be boxed, labeled and on the pallet racking evident in your post on 7/23/15. I cant imagine everything will fit back in the Jeep so cataloging whats there and giving Mike a clear picture of what he can fit in the Jeep for the ride back to Portland is in order. The Jeep itself should be assembled back as completely as possible (unless Mike has made other arrangements) be clean and ready to travel. Extra points if you pack up and secure all the associated equipment before Mike arrives.
Next, please don't take this the wrong way but if you truly do have thousands of hours invested into the Jeep and the progress as shown in the pictures is accurate you were never going to make this a commercial success. The fact that you were able to learn this lesson at significant financial loss to somebody else (Mike) is a bonus for you (Sorry Mike). Appreciate that you might not be as much of a victim here as your "Tesla" post implies.
Last and most important, You and nobody but you will determine how the final chapter of Red Cannon is written. Owning past mistakes gives you a chance to learn from them. Following through on commitments merely to prove to yourself that you can is more valuable than any cash an investor could throw at you. Standing up and doing the right thing no matter how tough is always going to pay dividends no matter how it may seem at the time.
Last edited:
VanIsle_Greg
I think I need a bigger truck!
If there is anything to learn here... its that startups are risky. Also that having a vision or dream, and being a businessman/person are 2 very different things.
I know some very talented and creative people who are the WORST business people and I wouldn't trust them with my lunch money. Sounds like this company falls into the same category, along with a certain Trailer Manufacturer and a few others that have made it to the pages of this forum. Big visions, big dreams but not a lot of follow through. I might be wrong, I don't know all of the details, but the outcome would tend to support that (as would that long winded reply).
I am sorry that this didn't work out for you Mike, this is not cool on any level. Sorry that it didn't work out for (and likely never will now) for Red Cannon and Dion. If investors were hard to come by before... well.
Paul Jensen, way to step in and offer up a solution.. or at least an option. I have been burned a few times before, and it sure would have been nice to have somewhere to turn at that time.
Hope the recovery goes well on the Jeep and parts.
I know some very talented and creative people who are the WORST business people and I wouldn't trust them with my lunch money. Sounds like this company falls into the same category, along with a certain Trailer Manufacturer and a few others that have made it to the pages of this forum. Big visions, big dreams but not a lot of follow through. I might be wrong, I don't know all of the details, but the outcome would tend to support that (as would that long winded reply).
I am sorry that this didn't work out for you Mike, this is not cool on any level. Sorry that it didn't work out for (and likely never will now) for Red Cannon and Dion. If investors were hard to come by before... well.
Paul Jensen, way to step in and offer up a solution.. or at least an option. I have been burned a few times before, and it sure would have been nice to have somewhere to turn at that time.
Hope the recovery goes well on the Jeep and parts.
mhiscox
Expedition Leader
Several people questioned the wisdom of flying to Iowa to fetch the Jeep from Dion and immediately driving it 2000 miles back to Portland. They had a point, and so I've spent some more money to have the camper delivered.
The transporter picked up the XV-JP today at Red Cannon, along with, theoretically, all of the equipment taken off it during the disassembly. It's estimated that the truck will arrive at my house sometime next week. Photos and a status report will be posted once it arrives.
Thanks for your continued interest.
The transporter picked up the XV-JP today at Red Cannon, along with, theoretically, all of the equipment taken off it during the disassembly. It's estimated that the truck will arrive at my house sometime next week. Photos and a status report will be posted once it arrives.
Thanks for your continued interest.
veilside180sx
Observer
Good to hear
patoz
Expedition Leader
I was thinking a while back, that might be a good idea. Even though it probably cost more money, it's also probably the safer thing to do. Not knowing the recent history or what exactly has or has not been done to it, could be pretty risky.
The only drawback I can see, is not being able to confront him face to face if something is missing.
The only drawback I can see, is not being able to confront him face to face if something is missing.
screwball48
Explorer
Mike,
Thank you for taking the time that you do to share your projects with our community at large. I feel that you do so not to be flashy or to show off. It is my impression that you share these things in the spirit of furthering the knowledge base of the community as a whole. I speak only for myself in saying that what I have learned from your threads has helped to broaden my knowledge base in vehicle dependent travel and exploration. Maybe one day I will be able to implement a "crumb" picked up from yourself or Paul Jense into one of my own builds. Again thank you for sharing your experiences with us whether they be good or bad.
Thank you for taking the time that you do to share your projects with our community at large. I feel that you do so not to be flashy or to show off. It is my impression that you share these things in the spirit of furthering the knowledge base of the community as a whole. I speak only for myself in saying that what I have learned from your threads has helped to broaden my knowledge base in vehicle dependent travel and exploration. Maybe one day I will be able to implement a "crumb" picked up from yourself or Paul Jense into one of my own builds. Again thank you for sharing your experiences with us whether they be good or bad.
SamM
Adventurer
Mike,
I always loved your Jeep and this thread. It's very unfortunate what happened to it. I feel your pain, as I had a similar situation happen to me. I gave my vehicle and parts to a builder and never received the agreed upon work and fabrication. I lost my investment and in the end my vehicle. It's in a state of disrepair and will be sold off, as parts, when I can finally look at it again. It's currently locked in a building that do not go into. My dream turned into a nightmare. My hope and prayer is that your Jeep does not end up like my project did. Hang in there!
SamM
I always loved your Jeep and this thread. It's very unfortunate what happened to it. I feel your pain, as I had a similar situation happen to me. I gave my vehicle and parts to a builder and never received the agreed upon work and fabrication. I lost my investment and in the end my vehicle. It's in a state of disrepair and will be sold off, as parts, when I can finally look at it again. It's currently locked in a building that do not go into. My dream turned into a nightmare. My hope and prayer is that your Jeep does not end up like my project did. Hang in there!
SamM
mhiscox
Expedition Leader
Thank you, Sam. I appreciate your thoughtfulness, and am certainly sorry to hear of your own situation.
Current estimate for arrival is Monday, the 4th. And then we shall see what there is to see.
PaulJensen
Custom Builder
Better than getting on April First or Groundhog Day...
More like this
Episode 1- Rich dude buys a $100k used jeep off of eBay
Episode 2 - Random dude picks it up and delivers said jeep
Episode 3 - Surfer dude remodels used jeep with stuff he used to make surfboards
Episode 4- Wacky dude attempts to turn the jeep into another jeep
Episode 5 -Transporter dude picks up the new said jeep....... The following has been brought to you by:
- expedition portal "You post it, we profit from it"
And
- red cannon outfitters "where our vision doesn't turn into reality"....