Expedition Portal: The Land Rover 109 IIA Build
- Thread starter MattScott
- Start date
aka rover
Adventurer
If I had to pick a piece of the drivetrain to transplant in a rover the transmission would be the number one Item to get rid of. I think in a 109 even with stock engine under hard offroad use you will continue to have problems. I have looked at the LT77 option as well as the R380 I ended up with a T 176 small compact and very strong for its size. Lots of options out there.
MattScott
Approved Vendor
Whelp, Ralph will be getting some new parts over the next few weeks that will make for some interesting posts.
In the mail today came all new brakes (shoes, springs, adjusters, cylinders) door locks, window tracks, tune up etc..
I'll also be installing a bluesea fuse block, and a custom, iPod only waterproof stereo.
In the mail today came all new brakes (shoes, springs, adjusters, cylinders) door locks, window tracks, tune up etc..
I'll also be installing a bluesea fuse block, and a custom, iPod only waterproof stereo.
MattScott
Approved Vendor
Will do!
Just think with an overdrive you can replace the engine drone with a high pitch gear noise!
LR Max
Local Oaf
I've already got the high pitch gear noise. Sounds like I'm murdering 30 million crickets all at the same time.
I see something like this being nice for around town, sub 45 mph or on the trail in 1st or 2nd low range. Of course my suffix B transfer case low range is straight cut gears which in 3rd gear...sounds like the overdrive!!!
I see something like this being nice for around town, sub 45 mph or on the trail in 1st or 2nd low range. Of course my suffix B transfer case low range is straight cut gears which in 3rd gear...sounds like the overdrive!!!
Snagger
Explorer
That looks like a great vehicle - full of original character and in great overall condition.
I have owned a SIII 109 for twenty years now, and I rebuilt it from scratch with a host of modifications to make it more capable and usable. It is a compromise between daily family vehicle and overlander, but could easily be re-rigged towards one or the other. I have an extensive website which not only covers the rebuild and mods, but also has tutorials on gear box, engine and overdrive overhauls.
Your overdrive photos show nothing of concern - they look pretty normal to me unless I missed something. The Fairey unit is not especially robust, but will cope admirably with the modest torque of a 2.25 petrol engine. Do not fit anything other than standard differential ratios (4.71:1; the aftermarket 4.75s should be OK, though), as taller ratios will leave the engine struggling on road as much as off it. A Roverdrive is a tougher and quieter unit and parts are easier to source, but unless your Fairey is irreparably damaged, there is no point in spending a small fortune on a replacement. Carrying the original transfer box input gear, shim and rear bearing housing is very good advice, though, even with a Roverdrive.
For the rear axle, definitely fit a Salisbury from a SIII and remeber to use the SIIIs shortened prop shaft. They're bomb-proof.
The 109 brakes are absolutely fine if well maintained. Discs have advantages, but also thousands of disadvantages ($). With an otherwise standard vehicle, standard brakes are more than capable of stopping the vehicle from its moderate speeds. The main difficulty with drum brakes is their need for periodic cleaning and adjustment, but that's it.
If you're content with the engine, then leave it. If the ignition system is in good order, they're very reliable and under-stressed, which is a big issue on vehicles used in remote areas; much better to have a steady plodder than a temperamental racer.
The wipers are a bit crap, but I fitted cut-down SilBlades and a Smartscreen intermittent wiper control unit and they
I have fitted a 200Tdi, three fuel tanks, a winch, twin batteries, better seating and a custom interior to add rear seats but also overland storage. Those, along with the engine rebuild and installation, overdrive fitting and so on are all detailed at www.nickslandrover.co.uk . For what it's worth, I have been preparing for some time to fit Defender axles to improve steering lock, help with lateral stability (they're longer), up the gearing to suit the Tdi's greater performance and have disc brakes for reduced maintenance. The work on the axles is also on there.
Regarding tools and torque settings, I have only ever used imperial and metric tools - I have no Whitworth or AF tools, and have not run into problems. Old LRs were heavily engineered, to as Greenmeanie says, they are quite tolerant of incorrect torque settings, but having the correct settings will ensure much better longevity of the mechanical components by not overstressing them. Having a manual, even if it's just a Haynes manual, is very useful. Like Teri-Ann, I have seen sheared drive flange bolts and wheel studs, stripped transmission casing or thermostat hosing threads and other such maladies through the laziness and ineptitude of other owners and mechanics.
I have owned a SIII 109 for twenty years now, and I rebuilt it from scratch with a host of modifications to make it more capable and usable. It is a compromise between daily family vehicle and overlander, but could easily be re-rigged towards one or the other. I have an extensive website which not only covers the rebuild and mods, but also has tutorials on gear box, engine and overdrive overhauls.
Your overdrive photos show nothing of concern - they look pretty normal to me unless I missed something. The Fairey unit is not especially robust, but will cope admirably with the modest torque of a 2.25 petrol engine. Do not fit anything other than standard differential ratios (4.71:1; the aftermarket 4.75s should be OK, though), as taller ratios will leave the engine struggling on road as much as off it. A Roverdrive is a tougher and quieter unit and parts are easier to source, but unless your Fairey is irreparably damaged, there is no point in spending a small fortune on a replacement. Carrying the original transfer box input gear, shim and rear bearing housing is very good advice, though, even with a Roverdrive.
For the rear axle, definitely fit a Salisbury from a SIII and remeber to use the SIIIs shortened prop shaft. They're bomb-proof.
The 109 brakes are absolutely fine if well maintained. Discs have advantages, but also thousands of disadvantages ($). With an otherwise standard vehicle, standard brakes are more than capable of stopping the vehicle from its moderate speeds. The main difficulty with drum brakes is their need for periodic cleaning and adjustment, but that's it.
If you're content with the engine, then leave it. If the ignition system is in good order, they're very reliable and under-stressed, which is a big issue on vehicles used in remote areas; much better to have a steady plodder than a temperamental racer.
The wipers are a bit crap, but I fitted cut-down SilBlades and a Smartscreen intermittent wiper control unit and they
I have fitted a 200Tdi, three fuel tanks, a winch, twin batteries, better seating and a custom interior to add rear seats but also overland storage. Those, along with the engine rebuild and installation, overdrive fitting and so on are all detailed at www.nickslandrover.co.uk . For what it's worth, I have been preparing for some time to fit Defender axles to improve steering lock, help with lateral stability (they're longer), up the gearing to suit the Tdi's greater performance and have disc brakes for reduced maintenance. The work on the axles is also on there.
Regarding tools and torque settings, I have only ever used imperial and metric tools - I have no Whitworth or AF tools, and have not run into problems. Old LRs were heavily engineered, to as Greenmeanie says, they are quite tolerant of incorrect torque settings, but having the correct settings will ensure much better longevity of the mechanical components by not overstressing them. Having a manual, even if it's just a Haynes manual, is very useful. Like Teri-Ann, I have seen sheared drive flange bolts and wheel studs, stripped transmission casing or thermostat hosing threads and other such maladies through the laziness and ineptitude of other owners and mechanics.
greenmeanie
Adventurer
If a bolt has been torqued to the point of failure and you've removed it what is then the correct torque for a replacement bolt? As the threads of the mating part will also have been damaged it is no longer the value stated in the manual is my point as you will no longer achieve the correct preload. The values in the manual are based on new parts and OEM bolts, not abused parts so if you're concerned about the function of the joint and not just getting a click on a tool then you've got to accommodate the condition of the parts. There are fairly simple ways to establish the new torque required based on measuring running torque on even refurbished threads. This is a nice little ASME presentation on the subject. A lot of industries will not reuse screws or bolts for some of the reasons stated.
For 99% of owners this will not be an issue but then 99% of owners never cared about torquing flange bolts. Book torques are great for known parts but very few owners have that luxury on a 40 year old vehicle. Hence my point about treating them accordingly.
For 99% of owners this will not be an issue but then 99% of owners never cared about torquing flange bolts. Book torques are great for known parts but very few owners have that luxury on a 40 year old vehicle. Hence my point about treating them accordingly.
greenmeanie
Adventurer
Read the previous thread. Read the link and understand the point being made is that on a 40 yr old truck with fasteners that have seen repeated cycles that the manual, written based on the assumption of new parts and new fasteners may, is unliekly to be CORRECT. As you mention the laziness and ineptitude of other owners I presume you have your torque tools calibrated? If its not calibrateed its NOT the correct tool for those situations where torque is critical. The purpose of torque is to preload a joint not merely to achieve a click to make you feel good. Under torquing is just as bad as over torquing.
Enough on torque. There is a good thread showing some great justification for adding extra fusing not only to accessories but to the existing circuits too.
Snagger
Explorer
I understand that point, but even an uncalibrated torque wrench is going to be accurate within reasonable tolerances (unless seriously abused), tolerances which will have been considered by LR given their their world and remote market applications, which is more than can be said for mere guess work by a heavy handed or limp-wristed bodger. I think you're on a losing argument, greenie! 
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
Of special note there, which may or may not be an issue, is that you can't use the transfer case PTO, which means no PTO drive hydraulic pump for a winch. No mention if the bottom PTO would still work.
If you also use an LT230 (which will let you use the PTO) you can use the Ashcroft part time conversion because of the single cardan front axles.
Snagger
Explorer
If I'm not mistaken, the Ashcroft conversion kit allows the R380 or LT77 to fit to an unaltered transfer box. That would mean the bottom PTO unit would be compatible, if you can find one. The engine or transmission will have to move as the Defender LT77 and adaptor are 100mm longer than the Series box (Disco/RRC box even longer due to the bell housing length). The R380 only had the long bell housing as standard - short R380s are specials and as such are rare and expensive.
It's an uncommon but not rare conversion over here which seems to work well. Keeping the Series Tx box with 4.71 diffs gives a similar overall result from a ratio perspective as a standard transmission with an overdrive. More common here is the complete transfer of a whole Defender transmission to get the LT230 in too, but that means a lot of chassis alteration for mountings and removal of the gear box and bell housing cross members, custom prop shafts and 3.54 diffs (the Defender and Discovery transfer box ratios are lower than the Series (1.4:1, 1.22:1 and 1.15:1 respectively). If running a 2.25 engine, you'd need the 1.4 transfer box from a Defender, or even the 1.6 ratio box from a pre-Defender 90 or 110.
greenmeanie
Adventurer
That tells me you are a wishful thinker Nick. The Rover designers have just specified the standard torque for a 3/8 BSF grade S bolt with +/-10% tolerance. No special Land Rover ju ju but common engineering practice. The tolerance built in by land rover was sizing the bolt and the lock washers under the head. Do you bodge or do you check these and replace them as necessary while breaking out the torque wrench?I understand that point, but even an uncalibrated torque wrench is going to be accurate within reasonable tolerances (unless seriously abused), tolerances which will have been considered by LR given their their world and remote market applications, which is more than can be said for mere guess work by a heavy handed or limp-wristed bodger. I think you're on a losing argument, greenie!
Talk to anyone who deals with torque and fastener preload and once they've stopped laughing at you they might explain the general relationship between running torque, locking torque and UTS. They will then explain to you a little about preload. There are large factors of safety built into a bolt. If you torque a 3/8th bolt till it snaps you have no business working on mechanical equipment without supervision. If you have good known parts then use good practices and torque properly. If you have unknown parts and used fasteners and are concerned about torque then follow common practice to establish the correct value.
There are a whole load of factors you need to take into account to get an accurate torque even with good tooling. Even if it went click and made you feel chuffed with yourself at how clever you were to use your tool its easy to be up 50% out. Heavy handed or limp wristed is up to you depending on how you go about it. Poor tools don't help that. If you are going to go haverin on with a superior attitude about mechanics skills then at least do it right. Can you get away without doing it right? Yes, but then so do millions of people who never touch a torque wrench which only says the design is tolerant.
If you are looking into gearbox swaps talk to Matt at AA as they have a very nice adapter for the series transfer case that covers most US gearboxes. For a series an NV3550/series combo would be interesting. I personally don't see anything special in an R380 to warrant its use in a conversion in the US. Even a 4 speed top loader like the NP435 comes with a 1:1 output which gives you a nice gearing upgrade over the stock 1.15:1 for cruising without overwhelming the engine. IIRC it also has a slightly deeper 1st. The close ratio GM variant is well suited, cheap and strong. If you do ever consider an engine upgrade its easier to mate these gearboxes to US engines.