Flyingwil's Taco is growing up!

[ToyFamily]

I can see your concern and want our loved ones to be safe as well. My wife's DD 4runner has the prototype of this bumper model on it, we also have two other Shrockworks employees who both have this specific product on their own vehicles, a 00 Tacoma and 96 4runner which transport their wives and children. I hope this is a testament to our own confidence in the safety of our products.

The airbag sensors are inertia switches which are measuring the stopping force, as well as the frame crush points are retained. These factory safety implements are invaluable but in a real world accident you'll find few of these accidents happen in the same fashion, direction of force, or velocity. This causes these implements to react minutely different in each situation. Everything is a give and take in the design of your vehicle from the factory as well as your modification of it. This is extremely difficult to test for to the extent of added equipment weight, where it is stored and how it is secured.

We have to walk a fine line between off-road longevity (what it is bought and hopefully used for), product performance and occupant safety, which are major concerns. We also have the added issues to occupant safety by adding off-road factor as well. One example is the possibility of hanging your vehicle off of our product while winching or recovery, possible life threatening situations. The performance of the design has been proven in real life situations time and again, from fender benders to severe head on collusions. We don't like to see it happen but we continually receive positive customer feedback having walked away from these situations and in many accounts the customer has been told by EMT/Fire Rescue that they wouldn't have survived and/or would have more severe injuries without our product. This reinforces our design experience and CAD feedback during the design process.

In the end, it is your decision at what situations you put your family in and what measures you take to insure their safety. Seeing as you already have our product installed, I hope this lets you rest assured your family’s safety as well as ours is a major concern in the development of this product in particular, as well as all of our products.


Nick

 

[articulate]

I can see your concern and want our loved ones to be safe as well . . .

Nick

Nick, I'm glad you responded there because it's supremely important to consider what "air bag compliant" means and to understand really what an air bag sensor is and does if we're going to wave that banner as a reason to buy the ARB. Seriously, the Wiki page has some cool information about how an air bag sensor works.

Stating that a bumper is "air bag compliant" (if that's the advertised terminology) is like wagging the dog. Your bumper doesn't touch an air bag sensor, your air bag sensors work no matter if you have a bumper or not . . . An air bag sensor measures deceleration - bottom line - not whether or not the crush cans got crushed or if a bumper is crumpling or any other farce.

Now, a steel bumper is made of steel, and steel . . . is steel - it's going to minutely effect your rate of deceleration in a direct front impact. Anyway, I have a hard time believing that the steel ARB bumper is any safer than the competition's steel bumper.


***
Wil, we're overdue for a happy hour. And one of these:
:REOutCampFire03:

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Now, a steel bumper is made of steel, and steel . . . is steel - it's going to minutely effect your rate of deceleration in a direct front impact. Anyway, I have a hard time believing that the steel ARB bumper is any safer than the competition's steel bumper....

That is an extremely bold statement and I strongly disagree with the summarization wholly. I'm by no means saying the Shrockworks bumper isn't safe, but we don't know that do we? Only testing will ensure that there bumper will collapse at the exact rate Toyota designed their system too. A more rigid bumper, bags could fire prematurely, say in a 10mph accident. Too flimsy and they could fail to fire as mandated at 14mph. Do you want to explain to your insurance company how your ginormous steel bumper had nothing to do with deceleration (distance & time, distance completely related to the amount of crush as is the time it takes to crush said bumper).

The ARB bumper incorporates crush cans, yes, accordion shaped cans designed to crush at a certain rate for a certain load upon impact. This allows their bumper to absorb an impact thus causing the vehicle to decelerate at an identical rate (or within tested reason) of the OEM bumper. I know for a fact there are aftermarket designs that frankly won't crush at all, they will absorb little or no impact and thus the deceleration will read higher for that vehicle than an OEM equipped vehicle on a similar accident.

In addition to the crush cans, the bumpers are actually designed to "fold" as they absorb the impact, again reasons why their geometry and material selection is engineered and furthermore tested to ensure compliance.

What happens when the bumper does not allow deceleration over a prescribed time, you have now altered the prescribed programming and you run the risk. Is the risk beyond reason, well that is a personal questions. I run plenty of devices on my personal rigs that likely diminish its overall safety, a lift kit for example is know to increase the center of gravity, hard to explain it otherwise. Then again you won't hear me saying "springs are just springs, I don't see how a stock spring is any safer than a 8" lifted spring"

 

[jsmoriss]

Now, a steel bumper is made of steel, and steel . . . is steel - it's going to minutely effect your rate of deceleration in a direct front impact. Anyway, I have a hard time believing that the steel ARB bumper is any safer than the competition's steel bumper.

I don't know what Toyota bumpers are available or what they look like, considering I have a 2007 Jeep Wrangler, but I have first hand experience crashing a steel bumper.

Here's a picture of the bumper AFTER I'd straightened it out with the winch. I hit a tree going downhill very fast on some wet clay (no traction or steering possible). It bent considerably and the Jeep stopped with the tree in the tire, pushed into the wheel. The airbags didn't go off and the frame didn't crumple. I attribute this to the bumper deforming on impact. Had the bumper been made of heavier gauge, the story might have been different. BTW, this is the AEV bumper for the new JK Wranglers. It uses thinner steel but is molded to improve strength.

Here's a shot of the Jeep in the tree -- it was rather dark after a big storm, so the quality isn't great, but it gives you an idea. FYI - The hill was very steep.

js.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

... BTW, this is the AEV bumper for the new JK Wranglers. It uses thinner steel but is molded to improve strength....

FWIW, AEV designs their bumpers as such, including the use of a crush can. "The AEV Front Bumper retains the factory crush cans to help prevent low speed deployment of your vehicle's airbag. Crush cans are protected by our durable polyethylene covers."

 

[jsmoriss]

FWIW, AEV designs their bumpers as such, including the use of a crush can. "The AEV Front Bumper retains the factory crush cans to help prevent low speed deployment of your vehicle's airbag. Crush cans are protected by our durable polyethylene covers."

Yup, although the tree missed the crush cans. Good thing too, 'cause those cans are not sold separately; hey have to be cut-out of the OEM bumper.

js.

 

[ToyFamily]

That is an extremely bold statement and I strongly disagree with the summarization wholly. I'm by no means saying the Shrockworks bumper isn't safe, but we don't know that do we? Only testing will ensure that there bumper will collapse at the exact rate Toyota designed their system too. A more rigid bumper, bags could fire prematurely, say in a 10mph accident. Too flimsy and they could fail to fire as mandated at 14mph. Do you want to explain to your insurance company how your ginormous steel bumper had nothing to do with deceleration (distance & time, distance completely related to the amount of crush as is the time it takes to crush said bumper).

The ARB bumper incorporates crush cans, yes, accordion shaped cans designed to crush at a certain rate for a certain load upon impact. This allows their bumper to absorb an impact thus causing the vehicle to decelerate at an identical rate (or within tested reason) of the OEM bumper. I know for a fact there are aftermarket designs that frankly won't crush at all, they will absorb little or no impact and thus the deceleration will read higher for that vehicle than an OEM equipped vehicle on a similar accident.

In addition to the crush cans, the bumpers are actually designed to "fold" as they absorb the impact, again reasons why their geometry and material selection is engineered and furthermore tested to ensure compliance.

What happens when the bumper does not allow deceleration over a prescribed time, you have now altered the prescribed programming and you run the risk. Is the risk beyond reason, well that is a personal questions. I run plenty of devices on my personal rigs that likely diminish its overall safety, a lift kit for example is know to increase the center of gravity, hard to explain it otherwise. Then again you won't hear me saying "springs are just springs, I don't see how a stock spring is any safer than a 8" lifted spring"

I don't want to turn this into an airbag discussion in Will's thread. We often have insurance companies rebuy our products that were on customer vehicles in accidents. Like the front bumper that kept the vehicle from being totaled or significantly reduced injury. We also have insurance companies buy our product after customers have had accidents in the stock configuration. Example: (articulate's model truck) 05 Frontier with our front bumper full tube. A customer was on a 200mi trip, 120 mi into it he has a collision with a 130lbs. deer head on at 65mph. The airbags went off. After the customer checked the damage (bumper was slightly bent and rotated into the hood), he was able to drive 80mi the rest of the way to the destination (nearest town). The insurance company rebought the bumper.

Steel is going to crush at different rates depending upon thickness, composition and bends/forming.

back to Will's thread. :1888fbbd:

Nick

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I don't want to turn this into an airbag discussion in Will's thread. We often have insurance companies rebuy our products that were on customer vehicles in accidents. Like the front bumper that kept the vehicle from being totaled or significantly reduced injury. We also have insurance companies buy our product after customers have had accidents in the stock configuration. Example: (articulate's model truck) 05 Frontier with our front bumper full tube. A customer was on a 200mi trip, 120 mi into it he has a collision with a 130lbs. deer head on at 65mph. The airbags went off. After the customer checked the damage (bumper was slightly bent and rotated into the hood), he was able to drive 80mi the rest of the way to the destination (nearest town). The insurance company rebought the bumper.

Agreed, I've sold non-airbag compliant bumpers and even suspension kits to insurance companies too. Its not their adjusters I'm worried about, its their lawyers. I have zero issue with selling non-compliant parts, my single caveat is that I would never attempt to tell the customer its compliant based on the similar materials as one that is I think you guys make a solid looking bumper for an attractive price, I wouldn't hesitate to run one on my personal rig or a customers! Back to Will's thread :sombrero:

 

[7wt]

Wil,

Do you have a lot of flex in your Larsen fender mount?

 

[flyingwil]

I can see your concern and want our loved ones to be safe as well. My wife's DD 4runner has the prototype of this bumper model on it, we also have two other Shrockworks employees who both have this specific product on their own vehicles, a 00 Tacoma and 96 4runner which transport their wives and children. I hope this is a testament to our own confidence in the safety of our products.

The airbag sensors are inertia switches which are measuring the stopping force, as well as the frame crush points are retained. These factory safety implements are invaluable but in a real world accident you'll find few of these accidents happen in the same fashion, direction of force, or velocity. This causes these implements to react minutely different in each situation. Everything is a give and take in the design of your vehicle from the factory as well as your modification of it. This is extremely difficult to test for to the extent of added equipment weight, where it is stored and how it is secured.

We have to walk a fine line between off-road longevity (what it is bought and hopefully used for), product performance and occupant safety, which are major concerns. We also have the added issues to occupant safety by adding off-road factor as well. One example is the possibility of hanging your vehicle off of our product while winching or recovery, possible life threatening situations. The performance of the design has been proven in real life situations time and again, from fender benders to severe head on collusions. We don't like to see it happen but we continually receive positive customer feedback having walked away from these situations and in many accounts the customer has been told by EMT/Fire Rescue that they wouldn't have survived and/or would have more severe injuries without our product. This reinforces our design experience and CAD feedback during the design process.

In the end, it is your decision at what situations you put your family in and what measures you take to insure their safety. Seeing as you already have our product installed, I hope this lets you rest assured your family’s safety as well as ours is a major concern in the development of this product in particular, as well as all of our products.


Nick

Hey Nick, its funny, the reason I put that in is when FlyingBaby was born at that point we had two vehicles with Shrockworks Bumpers! One on the Xterra and one on the Taco. As a parent and having the overprotective instincts kick in, it causes one to think about odd ball things like is this crash tested? But hey driving with out sway-bars IMO is far worse than the bumper, and I dont think I could find my sway-bar if I needed it!

Since it is an series of sensors that causes the airbags to deploy, its not like we were with out airbags for the family. Hey, if I could roll in a Troopy I gladly would, so again in this case the shrockworks bumper is better.

However when we were shopping for both the front facing and rear facing carseats, we did keep the bumpers into consideration in our selection. We went to several insurance sites and selected seats that had been crash test proven, and were in the top 3 overall, this combined with the bumpers had us covered in the even of an accident.

At one point I had seen pictures of a total Nissan? that had a Shrockworks bumper, had it not have had the Shrockworks protection, I don't think that either party would have lived. (It was a head on IIRC).

Overall, I am very pleased with the bumper I chose, it fits my needs in many ways, and I know it will last as long as my truck!

 

[flyingwil]

Wil,

Do you have a lot of flex in your Larsen fender mount?

Not so much in the mount, I notice a bit of flex to the left and right when on rough terrain, and it is actually mounted slightly forward so that when rolling at a higher speed it moves aft, and cause it to be vertical with the factory antenna.

 

[ToyFamily]

At one point I had seen pictures of a total Nissan? that had a Shrockworks bumper, had it not have had the Shrockworks protection, I don't think that either party would have lived. (It was a head on IIRC).

Overall, I am very pleased with the bumper I chose, it fits my needs in many ways, and I know it will last as long as my truck!

This one . Head on VS. Superduty freeway speed, bumper deflected the Superduty enough to make it scrape down the side (you see the missingtire/spindle though)...airbag deployed, occupants walked away, thank God.

Nick

 

[flyingwil]

Uh oh... needs to go on a diet like me...

Weighed in at 1/2 tank of gas with empty fridge and empty water!

 

[Arvin G]

WOW:yikes:I have to weigh mine one of these days.

 

[Overland Hadley]

Getting on the CAT Scale is a scary experience.