Freelander as an overland vehicle?
- Thread starter Mike_rupp
- Start date
D
DiscoD
Guest
For one, it's Insurance Fraud.
Two, the 300TDi diesel engines do not weigh the same as the 3.9/4.0/4.6L gas engines. Furthermore, the TDi's sit father forward in the engine bay than the V8 gas engines. You're the one who claims to be an engineer, so I feel confident that you can figure out how this affects braking and suspensions. Not to mention the frame modifications and fabrication that has to take place, first, before the TDi can be fitted.
But none of that matters. It's illegal and that's the end of the story.
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
I read through this:
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resour.../engswitch.pdf
And it's pretty typical of a government document.
In one paragraph is says you're not breaking the law with a conversion (modifing a "certified configuration") if there's a reasonable basis for knowing the emissions are not adversely affected. Certainly an engine swap would be a modification.
Then later on it says you can't. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not like the IRS, ask 10 EPA people what a rule means, and you get 10 different answers.
As for Steve's supposed TD5 conversion, I'm having a real hard time figuring out why anyone cares if he can do it or not? Seems to me that if he can, it would be a boon to a lot of people if it's recreatable. If it's not, well...another pipedream down the tubes. I doubt very seriously anyone is going to see Steve's "I've found a legal way to convert my DII to a TD5" is going to immediately oder a TD5 from the UK so I don't see anyone needing to be "protected from misinformation."
I take that back, I can fully understand why someone who'd like to do the conversion would really care, but if you don't want to do it, who cares wether he can or not?
BTW, if that "monster" Land Rover, http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=439662&postcount=1 indeed has a mutifuel engine from a deuce in it, it's illegal too. The above document says in no circumstances can you put a heavy truck engine in a light truck.
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resour.../engswitch.pdf
And it's pretty typical of a government document.
In one paragraph is says you're not breaking the law with a conversion (modifing a "certified configuration") if there's a reasonable basis for knowing the emissions are not adversely affected. Certainly an engine swap would be a modification.
Then later on it says you can't. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not like the IRS, ask 10 EPA people what a rule means, and you get 10 different answers.
As for Steve's supposed TD5 conversion, I'm having a real hard time figuring out why anyone cares if he can do it or not? Seems to me that if he can, it would be a boon to a lot of people if it's recreatable. If it's not, well...another pipedream down the tubes. I doubt very seriously anyone is going to see Steve's "I've found a legal way to convert my DII to a TD5" is going to immediately oder a TD5 from the UK so I don't see anyone needing to be "protected from misinformation."
I take that back, I can fully understand why someone who'd like to do the conversion would really care, but if you don't want to do it, who cares wether he can or not?
BTW, if that "monster" Land Rover, http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=439662&postcount=1 indeed has a mutifuel engine from a deuce in it, it's illegal too. The above document says in no circumstances can you put a heavy truck engine in a light truck.
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
What if people are trapped in the car and you can't just down your TD5 and they die from carbon particulate ingestion.
Sorry, couldn't resist. LOL
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
That would all be great if it weren't true that the vast majority of accidents are driver errors, not vehicle problems.
rugbier
Adventurer
lol
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
By that argument, probably 95% of all aftermarket springs and brake components are illegal, or insurance fraud. We'd only legally allowed to use OEM parts.
Not to mention radius arms, trailing arms, a-frame modifications and a host of other things 10's of 1,000's of people do to 4WD trucks.
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
Not to mention anything other than the OEM specified tires. With full tread depth, and proper inflation pressures. Once you head down this logical road, there is no end. The simple fact is, if you hit somebody, you made a driver error, *unless* you had a mechanical failure before the impact.
Or we could talk about front bumper construction.
Or we could talk about front bumper construction.
cruiseroutfit
Supporting Sponsor: Cruiser Outfitters
Can anyone point to a an actual stateside case where an 'illegal' motor of any manufacture was installed into a vehicle against EPA laws, but in accordance with their state laws and ran into actual problems? Honestly wondering.
Lots of points come up...
1. Insurance. My agent is 100% comfortable writing a policy for a engine swapped rig, or a SOA rig, etc. In fact I've never heard of an insurance company denying coverage based on modifications to a rig that happen to be 100% legal in our given state. Meaning a SOA, diesel swap, etc is all legal in the state. No fraud involved.
2. Motor legality. Again I beleive that the EPA restricts certain motors, but the State of Utah for example doesn't care what the motor is when you go to swap it. Our titles reflect the number of cylinders and the type of fuel, nothing more. Documents regarding engine swaps only imply that it must meet the same emissions requirements (tailpipe) test as it normally did under its model year. So it all boils down to what the EPA deems a legal motor and what they don't. Is there a list available somewhere? Like I mentioned earlier, Toyota owners are bringing in just about every model LC powerplant ever manufactured and putting them in predominately 10+ year old vehicles, so maybe that has more to do with it than I realize. But I have never heard of a single EPA issue with the exception of companies acutally performing the install and of course those issues related to states like California where CARB compliance is a biggy. Companies like TLC Van Nuys have figured out ways to legally convert using diesel motors that were never offered in the US, why is this TD5 Rover motor so different regarding its practicality of compliance?
Lots of points come up...
1. Insurance. My agent is 100% comfortable writing a policy for a engine swapped rig, or a SOA rig, etc. In fact I've never heard of an insurance company denying coverage based on modifications to a rig that happen to be 100% legal in our given state. Meaning a SOA, diesel swap, etc is all legal in the state. No fraud involved.
2. Motor legality. Again I beleive that the EPA restricts certain motors, but the State of Utah for example doesn't care what the motor is when you go to swap it. Our titles reflect the number of cylinders and the type of fuel, nothing more. Documents regarding engine swaps only imply that it must meet the same emissions requirements (tailpipe) test as it normally did under its model year. So it all boils down to what the EPA deems a legal motor and what they don't. Is there a list available somewhere? Like I mentioned earlier, Toyota owners are bringing in just about every model LC powerplant ever manufactured and putting them in predominately 10+ year old vehicles, so maybe that has more to do with it than I realize. But I have never heard of a single EPA issue with the exception of companies acutally performing the install and of course those issues related to states like California where CARB compliance is a biggy. Companies like TLC Van Nuys have figured out ways to legally convert using diesel motors that were never offered in the US, why is this TD5 Rover motor so different regarding its practicality of compliance?
cruiseroutfit
Supporting Sponsor: Cruiser Outfitters
Not to mention anything other than the OEM specified tires. With full tread depth, and proper inflation pressures. Once you head down this logical road, there is no end. The simple fact is, if you hit somebody, you made a driver error, *unless* you had a mechanical failure before the impact.
Or we could talk about front bumper construction.
And see those things are actually covered by laws here in Utah, whereas the types and origins of diesel power plants are not
D
DiscoD
Guest
You are correct. 100% so. The difference is, producers such as Rovertym, Safari Gard, Old Man Emu, etc.. pay big buck for umbrella insurance policies.
[Theoretically] If you were to get into an accident with your Rovertym equipped Land Rover, the Plaintiff could sue you. The Plaintiff would also name Rovertym, the tire shop who installed your tires, or what ever the Plaintiff feels aided in the damage to their property. That's why these aftermarket companies have insurance. If they're found guilty for offering an unsafe product that endangers either the owner or the public, they've got a policy to cover that.
If you install a D1 RTE bumper on your D1, Rovertym's insurance company will stand by you in court and dispute the Plaintiff's claim. If you install an RTE D1 bumper on your Yugo, you'll probably not get much help from Rovertym's insurance company and/or lawyer(s).
It's the same with installing a 300TDi (or what ever) in a Rover. When the Plaintiff, for what ever reason, thinks the 300TDi had something to do with the accident, the Plaintiff can name Land Rover North America in the law suit. But if LRNA comes to inspect your vehicle and sees that you have hacked the frame in order to fit an engine that's otherwise illegal, they're going to ask to be dismissed from the claim and you're on your own. The Plaintiff can then summons LRNA to court to act as an expert witness.
Your vehicle title belongs to the frame of the vehicle. Not the body or the engine or the transfer-case. Your title tells the State, DMV, insurance company, etc.. what configuration your vehicle is. There are ways to have your 1939 Ford Ratrod insured even though it has a 350ci small block Chevy in it. There are also ways to have your 1993 NAS Defender 110 TDi insured. Some are more legal, or ethical, than others.
But fitting a TD5 into a Land Rover Discovery II is illegal. End of story. There is no such thing as a NAS Discovery II with a TD5 engine. At this time there is a gray area as to how it could even be insured (kit car), but more importantly it does not meet the EPA guidelines. Period.
Now, will you get caught? Probably not. We've probably all seen some gray market stuff. But just because you do not get caught does not make it legal, and that's what people are arguing. We all know it can be done, and we all know people who are doing it. But that does not make it legal.
