Freelander as an overland vehicle?

[michaelgroves]

[Theoretically] If you were to get into an accident with your Rovertym equipped Land Rover, the Plaintiff could sue you. The Plaintiff would also name Rovertym, the tire shop who installed your tires, or what ever the Plaintiff feels aided in the damage to their property. That's why these aftermarket companies have insurance. If they're found guilty for offering an unsafe product that endangers either the owner or the public, they've got a policy to cover that.

If you install a D1 RTE bumper on your D1, Rovertym's insurance company will stand by you in court and dispute the Plaintiff's claim. If you install an RTE D1 bumper on your Yugo, you'll probably not get much help from Rovertym's insurance company and/or lawyer(s).

It's the same with installing a 300TDi (or what ever) in a Rover. When the Plaintiff, for what ever reason, thinks the 300TDi had something to do with the accident, the Plaintiff can name Land Rover North America in the law suit. But if LRNA comes to inspect your vehicle and sees that you have hacked the frame in order to fit an engine that's otherwise illegal, they're going to ask to be dismissed from the claim and you're on your own. The Plaintiff can then summons LRNA to court to act as an expert witness.

Your vehicle title belongs to the frame of the vehicle. Not the body or the engine or the transfer-case. Your title tells the State, DMV, insurance company, etc.. what configuration your vehicle is. There are ways to have your 1939 Ford Ratrod insured even though it has a 350ci small block Chevy in it. There are also ways to have your 1993 NAS Defender 110 TDi insured. Some are more legal, or ethical, than others.

I don't see your point. Yes, the plaintiff can sue whoever he wants. But if your vehicle is insured, and the insurance company is aware of any modifications reasonably pertaining to safety or value, then they are obliged to pay the claims. There's no fraud if they have been informed and have accepted the premiums. You can build your own bumper, or fit your own engine - that's between you and the insurance company. And the title isn't necessarily definitive as far as the insurance company is concerned - there might be lots of details that might have changed, which they have accepted. (They might, of course, insist that the title be changed to reflect any major changes to the car, as a condition of insuring you, but they don't have to).

The picture that's emerging from this discusssion is that there is no clear-cut legal process for importing a TD5 vehicle, or retro-fitting a TD5 to an existing vehicle. On the other hand, there seems to be a number of potential loopholes and legal contradictions that might make it possible in practice under some circumstances. The question being how clearly the method would have to cross the line before we would say it's "illegal".

This kind of regulatory territory always has an awful lot of grey area - I suspect that a huge number of common 4x4 truck modifications wouldn't pass strict scrutiny if they were measured against every statute and ordinance on the books. They tend to be tolerated or a blind eye turned, especially at a local level, as long as they are thought to be harmless. Does this make them legal? No, not by a strict definition. But perhaps yes, by a practical definition.

 

[Thor]

I love my ECR Persuit stage II 4.6 thanks.

Diesel smells bad before and after it is burned. IMHO.

 

[DiscoD]

I don't see your point. Yes, the plaintiff can sue whoever he wants. But if your vehicle is insured, and the insurance company is aware of any modifications reasonably pertaining to safety or value, then they are obliged to pay the claims. There's no fraud if they have been informed and have accepted the premiums. You can build your own bumper, or fit your own engine - that's between you and the insurance company. And the title isn't necessarily definitive as far as the insurance company is concerned - there might be lots of details that might have changed, which they have accepted. (They might, of course, insist that the title be changed to reflect any major changes to the car, as a condition of insuring you, but they don't have to).

Are you telling your Inc company what engine is in you vehicle? I've never done this when I've done an engine swap.

Likewise, I've never informed my insurance company of a bumper or suspension swap, either.

Should I? I don't know. I go by the saying "don't ask, don't tell". They're not "accepting" anything. Nothing at all. They're going by what's listed in their system when they punch in your VIN number. If these insurance companies were "accepting" something, those who have totaled their equipped vehicles would have received some large checks for all of their mods. But we all know, those mods were not insured like that.

Lets say I have a 2009 Ford Mustang. When I call my insurance company for insurance, they're not going to say, "ok, that will be $xxx.xx". They're going to ask for my VIN number. With the VIN number, or the title to that car, the insurance company will determine if you have a 6-cyl Mustang, or a supercharged 500hp Roush edition Mustang. Your insurance premiums will be different between the two.

Here is one more.

John Tackley of the Rover Owners Accoc of Virginia (ROAV) has a 1994 Defender 110 with a TDi. He bought the truck in the UK, I think. He had it shipped over here to the USA and he drives it regular. How did he do that? A 1994 110 is not legal for importation. The engine is not legal for that truck in this Country, either. How could he get insurance on a vehicle that not even legal?

I don't know how John Tackley did it. I suspect John swapped the VIN numbers on his truck to reflect a different year. I would bet that John Tackley's 110 is registered as a 1970's Series III.

Is that, or should that be legal? I think tampering with a VIN is a pretty serious crime. I think it's a federal offense, actually, but I could be wrong. But who's going to put the effort into investigating this? The EPA? DMV? Local law enforcement? Is Customs going to track John down?

Now lets say Joe Smith is riding with John Tackley and they get int an auto accident and Joe is killed. There is going to be an investigation, obviously. The Steve Police, maybe the DOT, and of course the insurance company will all play a roll here. If Joe's family finds out the airbags did not deploy because John's 1994 110 did not have any installed, like it or not Joe's family has a case. Who's going to pay the claim? As far as the insurance company is concerned John's 110 is a 1970's SIII and it did not have airbags. It did not have a turbo charged engine, either. But if Joe's family can prove that John's 110 was a 1994 model, who is guilty of fraud?

The picture that's emerging from this discusssion is that there is no clear-cut legal process for importing a TD5 vehicle, or retro-fitting a TD5 to an existing vehicle. On the other hand, there seems to be a number of potential loopholes and legal contradictions that might make it possible in practice under some circumstances. The question being how clearly the method would have to cross the line before we would say it's "illegal".

Getting a TD5 is easy. It's as easy as ordering up some Cuban cigars. It's as simple as that. But read Page 2 here and it is sums things up pretty well when it comes to installing your new diesel engine. Despite what "my insurance man" says, and despite the "I'll never get caught", it's illegal. The EPA says so. I like the law about as much as everyone else, but it is in fact a law. Whether or not you accept the risk break that law is up to you. But accepting the risk does not make it legal.

 

[rugbier]

I think I know who you are

Your statement is correct for you, but not 100% accurate to the point of informing the insurance company.

I have reported to my insurance company my (grey market) as such, and they assummed coverage as such ( remember a grey market car doesn't show on the Autocheck the production details a NA car does.

As a matter of facts on the don't ask don't tell, I have every mod on my D90 reported to them and in my case is for the sole reason is I have AGREED VALUE on my vehicles , so to increase that value to the max, every little detail is noted on the Declaration page.

Just my experience

Are you telling your Inc company what engine is in you vehicle? I've never done this when I've done an engine swap.

Likewise, I've never informed my insurance company of a bumper or suspension swap, either.

Should I? I don't know. I go by the saying "don't ask, don't tell". They're not "accepting" anything. Nothing at all. They're going by what's listed in their system when they punch in your VIN number. If these insurance companies were "accepting" something, those who have totaled their equipped vehicles would have received some large checks for all of their mods. But we all know, those mods were not insured like that.

Lets say I have a 2009 Ford Mustang. When I call my insurance company for insurance, they're not going to say, "ok, that will be $xxx.xx". They're going to ask for my VIN number. With the VIN number, or the title to that car, the insurance company will determine if you have a 6-cyl Mustang, or a supercharged 500hp Roush edition Mustang. Your insurance premiums will be different between the two.

Here is one more.

John Tackley of the Rover Owners Accoc of Virginia (ROAV) has a 1994 Defender 110 with a TDi. He bought the truck in the UK, I think. He had it shipped over here to the USA and he drives it regular. How did he do that? A 1994 110 is not legal for importation. The engine is not legal for that truck in this Country, either. How could he get insurance on a vehicle that not even legal?

I don't know how John Tackley did it. I suspect John swapped the VIN numbers on his truck to reflect a different year. I would bet that John Tackley's 110 is registered as a 1970's Series III.

Is that, or should that be legal? I think tampering with a VIN is a pretty serious crime. I think it's a federal offense, actually, but I could be wrong. But who's going to put the effort into investigating this? The EPA? DMV? Local law enforcement? Is Customs going to track John down?

Now lets say Joe Smith is riding with John Tackley and they get int an auto accident and Joe is killed. There is going to be an investigation, obviously. The Steve Police, maybe the DOT, and of course the insurance company will all play a roll here. If Joe's family finds out the airbags did not deploy because John's 1994 110 did not have any installed, like it or not Joe's family has a case. Who's going to pay the claim? As far as the insurance company is concerned John's 110 is a 1970's SIII and it did not have airbags. It did not have a turbo charged engine, either. But if Joe's family can prove that John's 110 was a 1994 model, who is guilty of fraud?



Getting a TD5 is easy. It's as easy as ordering up some Cuban cigars. It's as simple as that. But read Page 2 here and it is sums things up pretty well when it comes to installing your new diesel engine. Despite what "my insurance man" says, and despite the "I'll never get caught", it's illegal. The EPA says so. I like the law about as much as everyone else, but it is in fact a law. Whether or not you accept the risk break that law is up to you. But accepting the risk does not make it legal.

 

[michaelgroves]

Are you telling your Inc company what engine is in you vehicle? I've never done this when I've done an engine swap.

Likewise, I've never informed my insurance company of a bumper or suspension swap, either.

Should I? I don't know. I go by the saying "don't ask, don't tell". They're not "accepting" anything. Nothing at all. They're going by what's listed in their system when they punch in your VIN number. If these insurance companies were "accepting" something, those who have totaled their equipped vehicles would have received some large checks for all of their mods. But we all know, those mods were not insured like that.

Lets say I have a 2009 Ford Mustang. When I call my insurance company for insurance, they're not going to say, "ok, that will be $xxx.xx". They're going to ask for my VIN number. With the VIN number, or the title to that car, the insurance company will determine if you have a 6-cyl Mustang, or a supercharged 500hp Roush edition Mustang. Your insurance premiums will be different between the two.

Over here in the UK, at any rate, insurance companies instruct you to tell them if you make significant modifications to the vehicle. Non-standard suspension, body-kits, chip upgrades etc. Basically anything that changes the performance/handling, or the value of the car. If you told them that you had changed the engine, they might or might not alter your premiums, but either way, they would note it in the file. If you failed to tell them, then in the event of a claim, they would assess what effect the modifications would have had on your premiums they (i.e. whether your risk profile changed as a result). If the risk had changed, then they might well repudiate the claim on those grounds.

Note that they don't simply assess whether the modifications were a factor in the specific accident. They assess if they would have been an additional overall risk factor.

(I think that over here, your insurance company is forced to pay 3rd party claims either way, but can claim back from you if you have failed to keep them informed or otherwise breached the policy terms.)

"Don't ask, don't tell" is a great policy, until claim time. If you don't tell, then yes, they will assume a standard car, as per the VIN.

Here is one more.

John Tackley of the Rover Owners Accoc of Virginia (ROAV) has a 1994 Defender 110 with a TDi. He bought the truck in the UK, I think. He had it shipped over here to the USA and he drives it regular. How did he do that? A 1994 110 is not legal for importation. The engine is not legal for that truck in this Country, either. How could he get insurance on a vehicle that not even legal?

I don't know how John Tackley did it. I suspect John swapped the VIN numbers on his truck to reflect a different year. I would bet that John Tackley's 110 is registered as a 1970's Series III.

Is that, or should that be legal? I think tampering with a VIN is a pretty serious crime. I think it's a federal offense, actually, but I could be wrong. But who's going to put the effort into investigating this? The EPA? DMV? Local law enforcement? Is Customs going to track John down?

Now lets say Joe Smith is riding with John Tackley and they get int an auto accident and Joe is killed. There is going to be an investigation, obviously. The Steve Police, maybe the DOT, and of course the insurance company will all play a roll here. If Joe's family finds out the airbags did not deploy because John's 1994 110 did not have any installed, like it or not Joe's family has a case. Who's going to pay the claim? As far as the insurance company is concerned John's 110 is a 1970's SIII and it did not have airbags. It did not have a turbo charged engine, either. But if Joe's family can prove that John's 110 was a 1994 model, who is guilty of fraud?

I agree. If he did it by changing VINs, that's almost certainly out of anyone's definition of "legal". There's no grey area there, I shouldn't think. And if this hypothetical guy John had told his insurance company in advance what he had done, I am pretty sure they would not have insured him. But if they had insured him, knowing the score, they would have had to pay the claims, leaving him to face "only" the VIN/customs fraud.

Getting a TD5 is easy. It's as easy as ordering up some Cuban cigars. It's as simple as that. But read Page 2 here and it is sums things up pretty well when it comes to installing your new diesel engine. Despite what "my insurance man" says, and despite the "I'll never get caught", it's illegal. The EPA says so. I like the law about as much as everyone else, but it is in fact a law. Whether or not you accept the risk break that law is up to you. But accepting the risk does not make it legal.

I wasn't suggesting that "getting away with it", or "accepting the risk" makes something legal. It's just that often there is a grey area. The EPA document makes it seem 100% certain that installing a TD5 in a NAS Discovery or Defender would be illegal in all cases. But government departments have a habit of contradicting each other. I would bet that somewhere, there are exceptions allowed. Military. Plant. Agricultural. Disabled. Movie. Whatever.

Again, I'm not saying I am right about where a specific loophole is, just pointing out one of several possibilities that occur to me as I sit here. I bet there are others.

 

[FourByLand]

 

[Antichrist]

But read Page 2 here and it is sums things up pretty well when it comes to installing your new diesel engine.

Unfortunately it contradicts what is on page 1, as I mentioned before.

 

[deadbeat son]

For the record, I used to write auto policies for Farmers Insurance. Their guidebooks clearly state they will not cover a car with "altered suspension." I believe they also have some sort of clause about engine swaps, but don't recall that one specifically. If your vehicle is lifted/lowered, you don't tell your agent, and insure through FIG anyway, if in an accident where you are at fault Farmer's has every right to deny paying the claim.

 

[zimm]

How anyone with even the slightest love for a Land Rover can claim he has owned a NAS D110 and not know it's number is beyond me. Every single owner I know would probably tattoo it somewhere if there wife's would let them. And wasn't this the guy who was driving around MAR one year with a gun on hip, playin' sheriff?

Anyway's, this is a place I've lurked for years, never posted, but had to call out some of the BS on the TD5 swap...

hopefully this will just go away...

im sitting here on my front porch, with the NAS parked in the back yard.... trying to think if im 237 or 238.....

be back in a second....

238.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

For the record, I used to write auto policies for Farmers Insurance. Their guidebooks clearly state they will not cover a car with "altered suspension." I believe they also have some sort of clause about engine swaps, but don't recall that one specifically. If your vehicle is lifted/lowered, you don't tell your agent, and insure through FIG anyway, if in an accident where you are at fault Farmer's has every right to deny paying the claim.

Sounds like a great reason to stay away from Farmers. We've got several local insurance writers that are modified 4x4 owners themselves and have been very good to take care of customers with high dollar modified/custom 4x4's. I'm not at all worried about my setups. I'm legal per the states of Utah's safety codes and given that 50% (it seems that way anyways ) of Utah's 4x4's are modified, its not an issue an insurance company has ever been known to push.

 

[DesertJK]

I didn't have the time to read this entire thread so excuse me if this comment is not relavent anymore but....

My wife has a Freelander, I had a built D1 5 speed. I sold the D1 because 260,000 miles does not make for a reliable overland rig.
The Freelander needs to go but no one wants it. Every time I get the check engine lights to go out, another comes on, every time is stops leaking coolant, it starts over heating. The engine is a total POS.
The sad thing is the freelander handles great, almost sports car like over a mountain pass, it goes through snow better than our old Audi, and it is not too bad on fire roads. We even drove it through the dunes and it really did well.
If some one is considering a Freelander, don't. I don't care how good it works compared to other little soft roaders, the car is a total POS and the big exspensive parts that will break even if you only drive it lightly, are become NLA.

 

[I Leak Oil]

....Every time I get the check engine lights to go out, another comes on, every time is stops leaking coolant, it starts over heating.

That's Land Rover's new wack-a-mole OBDII and they use a "wet" cooling system where it works better with the coolant on the outside of the engine.:Wow1:

 

[bloodycape]

I know a bit of a old thread, but for some reason the thought of the Freelander as an off-road vehicle sounds a bit inciting. I love LRs and really want to get one, my dream would be to get a Defender, but budget would not allow it. There is Disco is nice, but not for me, and the RR, is nice too, but too big, and I want a bit more fuel efficiency. I then thought about maybe going the more fuel efficient route with something like a 4runner, or Xterra(both came in 4cylinder variants at one point), but something there doesn't really sit right with me. I am new to 4x4, but have been a auto enthusiast all my life.

More to the point I am now seeing a lot of Freelanders in great shape, but sans motors and trannys going for around $4000 and that is kind of tempting. The LR diesel motor is out of the question, but what about swapping in a VW TDI motor? There are a few gens of them around here in the states, and can get around 40+mpg in a Golf, could that work? Another option that I thought could work would be maybe swapping in a CR-V or Rav4 motor. With any of these swaps I am not sure if they would work, or not, but the thought of it sounds appealing.

 

[bloodycape]

Anyone, please?

 

[Daryl]

Anyone, please?

Well, what is your actual question? From my own experience as well as seemingly everyone posting in the thread (read the first few pages at least), they aren't really going to do well. Even take the motor and trans out of the equation and they just aren't built to handle a whole lot. They are also quite small, so they don't really fit my definition of something that would be able to carry enough to suit the purpose.

As far as putting in a different motor, a lot of that depends on what state you are in as to the requirements to make it legal/feasible. It also requires a lot of fab skills. I've never heard of a motor transplant in a situation anything like this being done for economy either in parts cost or fuel that actually paid off. You do them because you need more range, different torque curve, more torque, etc.

I'm sure that one could be made to be suitable and workable for the purpose. But at a cost and time commitment that I can't imagine would make any sense given the cheaper, more suitable and readily available alternatives.

Really, just read the thread. If you still aren't convinced I'm not sure there is anything anyone could do to change your mind. That's probably why you haven't gotten any responses.