FWC; major design changes, issues, and value?

White Dog

Member
I can't help but notice the apparent concern that FWC has remained largely unchanged for 20 plus years. Perhaps that isn't a bad thing. Perhaps they thought through most of the problems back then and have only had to tweak the design especially when problems-in-use have been identified. We live in a world where change is expected solely for the sake of change, not necessarily improvement. If you really want to get me going, start talking about cell phones and the software that runs them. Better not; that's really poking the bear. And yes, FWCs are expensive but I think this is a case of we-get-what-we-pay-for. Have a good close look at a $30k travel trailer some time. The design, materials and workmanship in those can be pretty scary. FWCs certainly aren't perfect but they do live up to their reputation. Try and find a cheap used one. I have a stack of cards in my desk from folks that have said: "If you ever decided to sell . . .". So lets be specific about changes and shortcomings we would like to see FWC address. Stan reads this forum. Maybe they will incorporate some of them into future units.
 

Roger M.

Adventurer
I'm curious to see if those new campers will have the resale value of an FWC/ATC in twenty years.
All of the twenty year old Four Wheel Campers I've seen look like every other truck camper with aluminium sides after twenty years ... they look like they're falling apart, and leaking at every seam.
 

kodiak-black

Observer
Try and find a cheap used one. I have a stack of cards in my desk from folks that have said: "If you ever decided to sell . . .". So lets be specific about changes and shortcomings we would like to see FWC address. Stan reads this forum. Maybe they will incorporate some of them into future units.

I hear you. But think about why people are looking for a used one. They're not interested in a new one and the new price because they haven't changed that much so why pay the additional money. After all they could just order a new one? When I started seriously looking at them myself about 5 years ago, the first thing I noticed is that I didn't see a distinct benefit of buying a new one, aside from it being new.

I wouldn't say it's a concern as I have nothing personally at stake. It's a criticism and one that isn't necessarily shared by everyone. It's an opinion. Most leaps in product development do so naturally through competition. We see this is most products we use everyday. It's one of the reasons a 2018 F150 looks different and performs better than a 1998 F150 for example.

Some may view my criticism as an attack on FWC. I think of it as input. I'm basically saying, "you can and should do better." It's not a criticism of those who already have invested in one.

And I would never suggest change for the sake of change, but things have evolved over the last 25 years. Available materials have changed, becoming better at retaining heat and keeping out cold. Ways of providing heat and heating water have changed. Construction materials get better, stronger, lighter and techniques for assembly change.

My suggestion would be to use better and newer materials. They have 30 years of customers in which they could inquire about what they would change if they had a wish list of changes. The people that would say, "I'd change nothing!" are not the people to ask. They're not helping the brand move forward. They're not making the designers and engineers reach to make something better. They're fanboys of the product that they've invested in. Somehow they think that because the newest FWC product is essentially the same as the one they purchased 10 years ago, as though this is a good thing? It feeds the ego that they made a great decision 10-15-20 years earlier!

That mentality would still have us using bag phones and dialing-up for your internet!

My advice to FWC would be look at every aspect of their design and ask the question of how they could do it better. Start with a clean slate. Start fresh. Instead looking at the current generation and making tweaks here and there start completely fresh. Design a unit in 2018 using what's available today. Instead they've taken a unit that was designed in the 1970's and made very small incremental changes over the past 40 years.

Look at the Overland X Camp. There's a video on Youtube. There's a pop-up that was designed within the last few years and it shows.

I'm not an engineer and I don't design campers, but lets be honest does anyone really see anything in the design of an FWC that's really that amazing? It's a pop-up truck camper man. Some of the design is predetermined by the size of a pick up truck bed. My point is, this isn't rocket science.

I'd wager that most people who have an FWC could actually come up with a better design. They may not have the skills or the space or the equipment to build their own but I bet after owning one for a while they know what they would change.

I've seen what's out there at ExpoWest and I'm sure FWC could do better. FWC has the infrastructure, tooling and branding that they could hit it out of the park with a new design. I see small outfits coming up with innovative designs using interesting and new materials with some outside the box thinking. We will all benefit from this innovation and increased competition. They may not all make it, but the cream as always will rise to the top.
 
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JaSAn

Grumpy Old Man
All of the twenty year old Four Wheel Campers I've seen look like every other truck camper with aluminium sides after twenty years ... they look like they're falling apart, and leaking at every seam.

My FWC Grandby was built in December, 1977. It is structurally sound (no broken welds found when the interior was gutted 5 years ago). It is weathertight, no leaks. It has the original soft side material (and looks it, but again, weathertight). I just replace the original lift panels this last winter. The original aluminum siding is scratched and dented. But it is not (nor does it look like it is) falling apart, not leaking at any seams either.
 

White Dog

Member
Kodiak-Black makes some valid points and right after him JaSAn gives his story about longevity. I certainly hope FWC is constantly looking at new materials and processes but like most manufacturers, if their product sells and develops a good reputation, they are unlikely to change it dramatically at least until a competitor starts to take away some of their market share.
 

kodiak-black

Observer
My FWC Grandby was built in December, 1977. It is structurally sound (no broken welds found when the interior was gutted 5 years ago). It is weathertight, no leaks. It has the original soft side material (and looks it, but again, weathertight). I just replace the original lift panels this last winter. The original aluminum siding is scratched and dented. But it is not (nor does it look like it is) falling apart, not leaking at any seams either.

That's great to hear, but it's not just a question of longevity. As we all know longevity is based on use and care. How often something is used, how it's used, under what conditions, and how well it's cared for, garaged, not garaged, etc. That's why we see so many well cared for, still running automobiles from the 60's and 70's an older...of course we also know that the majority of those automobiles didn't survive or are in need of frame off restorations.

One reason to keep and have an FWC from 1977 that is still in good condition, like yours, is that they haven't really changed all that much in the past 41 years. Longevity is just one measuring stick. They're probably isn't many 1977 units around in serviceable condition.
 

kodiak-black

Observer
Kodiak-Black makes some valid points and right after him JaSAn gives his story about longevity. I certainly hope FWC is constantly looking at new materials and processes but like most manufacturers, if their product sells and develops a good reputation, they are unlikely to change it dramatically at least until a competitor starts to take away some of their market share.


It's unfortunate but I believe you're correct, some companies likely won't react until they feel an impact to their business. It's a very reactive philosophy that doesn't seek out innovation or new processes.

Luckily the camping/ overlanding world has seen a bit of resurgence in the last 10 years or so. With a new generation of customers expecting more for their dollar and new innovative businesses offering more, we are all likely to benefit from improved product quality, innovation, design and features. Even die hard FWC fans will benefit from accelerated innovation in the industry. Ultimately, FWC will adopt some of the features that people want that will be offered by the competition.

What's the saying? "It's not the big that eats the small, it's the fast that eats the slow."
 

JaSAn

Grumpy Old Man
There are more choices: Hallmark, Earthcruiser Gazelle, Phoenix and Overland Explorer. All use a modern design and materials and all are at least as durable as Fourwheelcamper . . .

I like that there is still a manufacturer that is making the same proven design. I would love to mate my Grandby with a new Ram with a carbureted 318, 5-speed, manual shifting transfer case, manual lockout hubs, wing & crank windows, no computers or other electronic gizmos. Sometimes 'new' and 'latest' develop their own problems with time and we long for the older, simpler products.

That is not to say that I can't think of improvements. But I was in enough design meetings where the blood flowed ankle deep from a proposal to 'improve' a product that is selling well to know it is not an easy process.

jim
 

White Dog

Member
I think it is great that we can have these discussions. I fall into the camp that doesn't favor change for change's sake but I am the first to appreciate a true improvement. This thread has led me to think I will start a separate one on the 'personalization' of our Grandby. I am a passionate tinkerer (my wife would say 'obsessive' but only with a smile on her face). I always have some project on the go that I think is an improvement. I am also curious to see what kind of discussion it starts. Maybe other folks will share their tweaks as well. Who knows, FWC may think some of our ideas are worth incorporating in upcoming versions.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
That is not to say that I can't think of improvements. But I was in enough design meetings where the blood flowed ankle deep from a proposal to 'improve' a product that is selling well to know it is not an easy process.

If it ain't broke...
 

craig333

Expedition Leader
They do look at their customers. It wasn't FWC that came up with the idea for the lift struts but they happily adopted it after seeing their customers using them.

One thing no has mentioned is cost. I'm happy to see improvements as long as they don't increase the cost. I'd hate to see campers become just something for the rich.
 

Stan@FourWheel

Explorer
All good points brought up here. We know owning a Four Wheel Camper won't be the right choice for everyone. Customers have many different wants, needs, and tastes for truck campers. We won't be able to please everyone. Weather and climate plays a role in what individual customers will need too. FWC is always looking to make upgrades on the campers, in every aspect. We try and listen to our customer base and the forums. We're upgrading parts and product designs throughout the year. Changes are happening daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly. Most changes are behind the scenes and customers don't even know. New camper colors are coming. We've built 1 camper with smooth red aluminum siding, 1 in Khaki, many in Silver, and couple more colors are coming this fall. Our Flat Bed Models are selling better than ever. And when it comes to using high tech products and the best innovative materials, we are always researching and bringing in samples to work with. But usually the really "cool stuff' comes at a price tag much higher. We want to stay in the sweet spot by building campers around durability & utility, and with a reasonable price tag. Many of the other campers mentioned come with a higher price tag. I do agree that competition helps the industry. I have personally seen it, and that competition has helped FWC grow & get better over the years. And I also agree we (FWC) has things to work on, things to improve. Our staff knows and has a pretty good idea on where our strengths & weakness are, and we try and work on those every week. I like many of the new camper designs coming out the past few years. It is great for customers to have more choices. It will help the entire industry grow. There are plenty of sales and new customers out there for everyone. The Overlanding Community is growing with leaps & bounds. Exciting times.
 

okiedavid

New member
I went to Overland Expo West in 2017 and looked at most of what was there and ended up buying a FWC. The Earthcruiser GZL looked nice but it was almost twice what I paid for a similarly equipped FWC when I priced it in early 2018. I went back to the expo in 2018 and looked again at the campers out there and still am happy I choose the FWC. The Overland Explorer struck me as a better shell than the FWC but an unfinished product. There are a lot of cool features in some of the vans, but the price point again, is up there. The FWC shows a lot of refinement. Are there things I don't like about the FWC? Sure. But overall, I'm happy with what I have, and less than a year into ownership I would buy one again. Now, if there is something that comes on the horizon for 2019, who knows, but right now, I'm happy.
 

kodiak-black

Observer
All good points brought up here. We know owning a Four Wheel Camper won't be the right choice for everyone. Customers have many different wants, needs, and tastes for truck campers. We won't be able to please everyone. Weather and climate plays a role in what individual customers will need too. FWC is always looking to make upgrades on the campers, in every aspect. We try and listen to our customer base and the forums. We're upgrading parts and product designs throughout the year. Changes are happening daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly. Most changes are behind the scenes and customers don't even know. New camper colors are coming. We've built 1 camper with smooth red aluminum siding, 1 in Khaki, many in Silver, and couple more colors are coming this fall. Our Flat Bed Models are selling better than ever. And when it comes to using high tech products and the best innovative materials, we are always researching and bringing in samples to work with. But usually the really "cool stuff' comes at a price tag much higher. We want to stay in the sweet spot by building campers around durability & utility, and with a reasonable price tag. Many of the other campers mentioned come with a higher price tag. I do agree that competition helps the industry. I have personally seen it, and that competition has helped FWC grow & get better over the years. And I also agree we (FWC) has things to work on, things to improve. Our staff knows and has a pretty good idea on where our strengths & weakness are, and we try and work on those every week. I like many of the new camper designs coming out the past few years. It is great for customers to have more choices. It will help the entire industry grow. There are plenty of sales and new customers out there for everyone. The Overlanding Community is growing with leaps & bounds. Exciting times.

Stan I really I appreciate your response, the fact that you monitor forums and are open minded to change. I hope FWC does react to changes in the industry in a forward thinking way. I would hate to see FWC become an after-thought as newer and better options from competition pass you by, remember Blackberry phones?

I think the biggest thing holding FWC back from truly significant changes is the tendency to go back to what you're comfortable with. It's the same thinking that stymies other industries. When you go back to the drawing board and there's already an FWC camper drawn on it, you're limiting your design options out of the gate. So you become limited to fitting changes within an existing design. Changes become piece-meal.

You mention in your post above that you're coming out with new colors, "Red, Khaki, Silver...", which is great, but you're talking gravy and I'm talking meat and potatoes. In other words, it doesn't take much design or engineering to say, "let's paint it a different color!"

It's a small step, but it's not a giant leap for mankind.

Significant changes don't always have to equate to greater product costs or the increased cost can be negligible. Some changes can be value engineered, so as to incorporate an added benefit in some other form, less assembly time for example.

So maybe there is an additional cost for some new "space age" material with a higher R-value, but your engineers came up with a less intensive means in which to assemble the end product. So it becomes a wash in terms of your target pricing (material cost vs. labor), BUT you're turning out a better product and you're doing it faster, increasing your unit productivity, the coveted trifecta!

It's hard to do that if there's a tendency to always go back and start with your basic design. And I get what you're saying about recognizing challenges you face as a company. Often times, from what I've seen it turns out the employees with the most longevity are the most difficult to persuade to a new way of thinking. It's often the greatest stumbling blocks in the path of innovation.

Effectively, you end up with the same creative mind from the last 20 years coming up with the design for the next 20 years. That's why other industries where design/ engineering is more competitive and demands creativity for survival, often have new-fresh engineers offering new blood, new direction, new vision. That's kind of what we're seeing in the Overland industry right now with newer, smaller shops that can change direction on a dime and aren't married to an idea or concept.

You company has the advantage in terms of branding, facilities, customer following, reputation and industry knowledge. That's a huge advantage over the newer guys coming into the market.
 

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