FWC; major design changes, issues, and value?

[Roger M.]

I love Four Wheel Campers, they were my first exposure to serious Overlanding with a pick- up truck ... and before I went a different direction, they were the one and only "sleep system" I pined after.

IMO, FWC has only two major issues they need to deal with, lest they get bypassed by all those folks who have already dealt with those two issues, and have done so in brand new products brought to market.
The two issues area:

• Internal condensation in cold weather - this really must be dealt with, as beyond the simple hassle of a wet interior, it accelerates the wear and tear on the camper drastically ... as no matter how hard you try, you won't get all the water mopped up before it starts soaking in where it shouldn't be soaking in.
• Design sensibility (there's no getting away from the fact that the internal and external design is 15 or 20 years out of date, with special focus on the interior, which is a design disaster in 2018)

It's not helpful in this kind of conversation to hear from the folks that "are just fine with things the way they are", or respond with "take your complaints to somebody who cares" ... as that kind of thinking doesn't help to move the conversation forward (although, as noted below, both are completely valid comments from the existing fan-base who seek nothing in improvements, and are completely satisfied with things exactly as they are).

It would seem that, if FWC chooses to make no substantial changes to deal with the above two issues, they will still have no problem maintaining their current fan base, but will eventually be bypassed by folks looking elsewhere, but who would otherwise be inclined to look first to FWC for a pop-up camper, if only based on FWC's extensive experience in the industry alone.

One thing Stan notes is the price-point of a FWC, which remains admirably low (although not by much) compared to some of the newer, more technically advanced composite pop-ups.
But ultimately, the extended efforts to market a dated product on price point alone seems a recipe for eventual disaster.

Honestly, if FWC brought the interior condensation issue under control, and updated what are definitely tired design elements ... their extensive experience in the industry would make purchasing such an updated FWC almost a no-brainer for those looking for this kind of system.

Throwing a different coat of paint on the outside most likely isn't the improvement people (who bother to comment in the first place) are looking for from FWC.

 

[AF6GL]

I respect the comments being made here but feel I should weigh in. Yes I'm a FWC owner and a fanboy, lets get that out of the way. Why am I? Because I love the product.

I have been an owner for the past two years but researched and shopped around for many years before making my decision to buy FWC.

Just a few comments. I agree that the primary design has been around for a long time but honestly, it works really well. I also find it kind of humorous that several newer start-ups are basically copying the design. As far as materials I thought my Silver Spur interior was a great update to the standard wood paneling style of years past. I also thought the change to a marine grade coated dock material for the exterior exposed lower deck was a great idea. Interesting to me is that although they offer a more "modern" exterior composite material for the exterior, very few people order it. I guess I'm guilty of that as well but the reasons to stay with aluminum siding was more compelling to me. Admittedly some of the upgrades like White Dog suggests are not significant changes. Hell mine is only two years old and I wish I had some of the ones they have come out with in the past two years. Small or not they do ad up. Upgrades to the plumbing and electrical I believe are significant to the overall performance and longevity.

If you are considering a camper and if FWC is on your list I would suggest going and tour the factory if you can. I have several times and the upgrades to materials and process really show a company that truly cares about their product.

Admittedly, I might like to see a few changes. As mentioned earlier double pane windows might be nice but with the soft wall sides I'm not even sure it would make a difference. I would like to see maybe going to a Truma Combi system to save space and weight but I probably wouldn't be too keen on paying the cost difference. I do know that they listen to input from their customers and make changes based on that. If I could only get air conditioning in my front dinette I would be in heaven.

What can I say, I love my camper. It came the closest to giving me what I wanted and I even looked at custom made. In closing all I will say is, they may look the same from the outside, but they are from that on the inside.

 

[kodiak-black]

AFG6L- Great post and good to hear of your experience.

I agree the Truma Combi would be a great addition and a move in the right direction. Smaller, lighter, takes up less space than both a furnace and water heater. In terms of cost, it should be negligible. According to the FWC website, if you were to add a furnace and cabinet and stove to a "shell model" as an option it would cost $1595.00, the 6 gallon water heater is an $895.00 option on the "Hawk camper" page. That right there is $2500 in options which can mitigate the cost of a $1800 Truma Combi unit.

Consider that along with a Trumi Combi unit takes up less space, which means more room, is more efficient, more reliable and as I've read is nearly silent in it's operation. One change has a compounding effect. It's a win-win for everyone.

I think some FWC changes that some view as significant, like you pointed out, "I also thought the change to a marine grade coated dock material for the exterior exposed lower deck was a great idea." is in fact a great idea, but is a very simple change that doesn't warrant a lot of hoopla. In fact, I would wonder why anything other than marine grade material would be used for an area that is exposed to the elements while sitting in the bed of a pick up truck? It's similar to using green board sheetrock in a bathroom, it's standard practice, why would you use anything else?

Swapping regular grade plywood for Marine grade plywood for flooring on an exposed part of the camper is a good idea, but at the same time it's like, Duh!

 

[codename607]

-What makes FWC campers so sought after?
I’ve owned my camper(FWC Swift Shell) for 3 years now and I mainly use it during the spring, fall and winter months. Summer time it’s just too hot for me to camp. Altogether I’ve probably racked up about 100 or so days in the camper. It comes down to two main reasons on why I went with the FWC. 1) I wanted something that I could build out. So the option of getting a shell/empty camper was great. 2) Quality. Yeah, they’ve been using the same design for years but it still works great in my book. I’m not against innovation but I like knowing something can last 25 years.

-What one (or two) changes would make it perfect?
Like others have mentioned, condensation is heavy in these campers. I’ve never used any other type of camper so I can’t compare it to anything else but if I could wake up with zero condensation it would be perfect. I have found ways to limit the amount of condensation but not prevent it.

-What one (or two) things should I watch for in a used one (other than obvious)?
The camper that I have doesn’t come with a sliding front window. They stopped making them a few years ago because they always had issues with them leaking. If I was looking for a used one I would not buy one with a sliding window for that very reason. Get one with a fixed window.

Hope that answers some of your questions.

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

I completely understand both points of view.
A few people out there seem to think the FWC's are outdated and over priced and should be built differently.
I'm not in upper management here at FWC and I have no ownership in the company, but I have been here for a long time (almost 17 years).
I have seen a lot of changes.
I have seen many other camper manufacturers come and go.
If you are looking for a completely new camper, with new designs, new construction, new features, etc. etc. Then FWC might not be your first choice.
Someday we might be there, but it won't be today and it won't happen over night. We are building campers with a proven design, trying to keep the campers lightweight, with a low profile design, and durability in mind. We are selling to a customer base that is looking for what we manufacturer and what we have to offer. Our campers will never fit the needs of every customers out there, as we know that.
But here is something to consider from a business perspective (look at things from the business side of things, not from the side of "I want to redesign the perfect camper").
FWC has a pretty good reputation, we have been around since 1972, throughout the year at any time we have about a 12 week back-order to get a new camper, we don't have to build "stock" campers because sales are slow, and we are building about 750+ campers every year. Our customers seek us out and most of our customers are fans for life.
Again, are we perfect? Nope, not even close.
Are the campers perfect? Nope, not even close.
But if you were here all day, every day, every week, and month, year in and year out, you would see all of the small changes we work on to make the campers better.
Are we going to come up with a completely new camper in the near future, probably not.
We build what sells, and what sells is what our customer base seems to be looking for, at least right now.
New new designs are always on the drawing board, and who knows, we might have new ideas up our sleeve in case the market does slow down.
We want to be around for a long long time for the health of the company, for all of our employees, and all of our customers.
And a big shout out and "Thank You" to all of our customers that make us what we are.
Without our FWC customers and awesome Dealers, we would not be the company we are today.

Happy Camping to all, in whatever kind of camper you have.

Find a camper that suits your needs and your budget, and then get out to enjoy the great outdoors!

 

[kodiak-black]

[QUOTE="Stan@FourWheel, post: 2519199, member: 3417"
Are the campers perfect? Nope, not even close.
[/QUOTE]

I always appreciate firsthand inside knowledge as it's the most insightful.

Stan you illustrate my point precisely. Better than I actually ever could because you're a 17 year employee of FWC. Been around since 1972, so that's 46 years. To paraphrase what you said, the campers are "not even close to perfection ", after 46 years, I'm not sure what that says.

To become a Neurosurgeon takes about 4 years of undergraduate studies, 4 years of medical school and 6-7 years of surgical residency, so let's say 15 years total.

46 years of FWC Research and Development = not close to perfect VS. 15 years of Medical training and he or she is cutting into your melon to remove a tumor.

I would think if someone, anyone, was working on a concept, that hasn't changed too dramatically over the last 46 years that they would be closer to perfect rather than not.

To put the range of years in perspective. The last manned flight to the moon was in 1972, gas was $0.55 a gallon, bell bottoms have come and gone and then come and gone, again and Watergate was in the news.

So in nearly FIVE decades, what is essentially a box, made mostly of aluminum and wood, with a top that pops up is STILL not close to perfect?

So what's the timeframe we're talking about here, lol? I mean is it reasonable to assume that "perfection" or at least something closer is a couple decades away from now? So maybe by 2038 give or take, we'd have a near perfect FWC.

Well, I guess it's something to look forward to!

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

There’s always room for improvement.

I haven’t seen many, if any products that were absolutely perfect, and could not be improved on.

Seems like there’s not much I can add to this thread, so I’ll graciously bow out.

Happy camping to all. See you on the back roads.

Stan

 

[GoinBoardin]

Far from perfect. Hm. Probably about perfect for an aluminum frame and ply bottom. Maybe I'm not picky enough to be a critic though? I think your business model is darn close if you're staying that busy. Not talking get rich quick business, but steady work, weather the storms kind of thing. From the design side, you're balancing many factors, more than just flat-out performance. So perfect in every aspect isn't going to happen. Likely too much subjectivity there anyway. I think FWC makes a fine camper. Will I buy a new one someday? Probably not. I find the thermal bridging in my rebuilt Fleet II to be troublesome at times, and I enjoy building my own stuff so I see a composite build with pass through in my [distant] future. But that'll be way beyond FWC pricing (if I count my time), so I still see FWC as a good option.

For some more perspective, my 82' FWC was being used into 2017 without major work; 35 years! While a bit rough, still functional: not bad. That was old designs, much lighter construction..New materials and design should last longer.

What's the life expectancy of the modern adhesives used in composite builds? Lots of sikaflex in my Fleet now..will the panels stick for another 35 years? I kind of doubt it.

 

[JCatt]

Ford has been in business for over 100 years and hasn’t built a perfect vehicle yet. FWC is very good at what it is, and probably not the best at what it isn’t. Plenty of folks happy with what it is.

 

[FordGuy1]

I have owned my Grandby for 5 years. I have owned so many trailers, campers, motor homes, I can't keep count. I run a Ford dealer in So Cal. I kept seeing/servicing people that just loved there FWC. My wife and I do a lot of tent camping along with some backpacking, so going minimal is ok with us. I ended up buying a loaded FWC, Bought it over the phone, never setting foot in one.Stuck it on a full size crewcab Ford and never looked back. This has been hands down the best purchase My wife and I have ever made. Not only is the camper 100% bullet proof, it has allowed us to do so much more dispersed camping then we ever did before. We camp at least 16 weekends a year, and I have no regrets. For me, the proven design and the resistance to change, is what makes a FWC the opposite to outdated. Nowadays, too many things you buy keep changing and become less durable, and for me, I need it to function and work, every-time. FWC has delivered this beyond my expectations. The other plus is the dedication this company has to its customers, that is hard to find. Stan is one of the best people I have ever dealt with in a company of this size. He has dealt
with all of my crap, and never with less than a smile. You can't pay enough for that level of customer service.

 

[craig333]

Perfect camper? I'm a mostly summer camper tapering off into the winter. Last weekend I had all the windows open, full visibility and airflow and it was great. I'd miss that in what I see of some these campers that are built for winter use. Tiny windows and little visibility may make it warm but thats not a trade off I'd make.

I'd really love to see some real research on condensation. Why is it so bad for some and yet me and the dog generate almost none? Only time I've had to wipe some up was in the worst thunderstorm I've been in.

 

[kodiak-black]

I would never try to convince anyone that they're not happy with that have. If you're happy with your FWC, absolutely more power to you.

I do think there is the tendency confuse and mix and match different concepts.

For me, the proven design and the resistance to change, is what makes a FWC the opposite to outdated.

I get what you're trying to say, but "resistance to change" is actually like paraphrasing the word outdated. We all use everyday products and devices that are better, faster and more reliable because they didn't resist change. This kind statement tends to be hypocritical because we all use products or services that have evolved and become better. I mean we're communicating and discussing these topics on web based forums that didn't exist a decade ago, using an internet connection that's faster than it was a decade ago, typing on computers or tablets or phones that are better than their counterparts from a decade ago.

For some odd reason FWC gets a pass in this respect. Even though WE ARE ALL consumers of forward thinking products, devices, services, etc. that we use even single day.

Engineering and sound design principles are what make a product reliable. A new design, well engineered, will be as reliable as an old design that was well engineered EXCEPT it should be better in other aspects. You don't have to sacrifice that anvil type reliability that you all crave.

The other thing I hear often mentioned is that FWC has great customer service. I don't think anyone is disputing that. Great customer service has no bearing on whether a product is in need of updating.

-Great customer service = great customer service

-Reliably engineered = reliably engineered

-Outdated design = outdated design

There are all associated but they each stand on there own. You can have any mixture of all 3.

You can have great customer service, a reliably engineered product AND an UPDATED design. It's not an either/ or situation.

I wouldn't want to invest a new product that had poor customer service or a new product with an updated design that was poorly engineered. Folks with FWC's often comment as though a new design would mean that the product would not be as reliable. I just don't see why that would be the case.

 

[kodiak-black]

Ford has been in business for over 100 years and hasn’t built a perfect vehicle yet. FWC is very good at what it is, and probably not the best at what it isn’t. Plenty of folks happy with what it is.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Wallygator]

I don't own one and never have but there has to be a way to improve on the condensation if it's so terrible. I mean how bad is it?? It can't be so bad that it is costing customers. What about adding a vapor barrier of some type between the inner walls and the frame? Just something to slow the bridge.

Also in my not so expert opinion we have to look at how much these new composite campers are costing versus the proven design of the FWC and others like it. When a comparable composite camper is double the price or more of a FWC, it better be twice as good. Somehow I just don't see how it could. But again I don't have first hand experience.

 

[FordGuy1]

Apples and oranges.

Is it really? I think the one thing you leave out in your analogy is the fact that they are built on a production line(sort of) and they cost 25k, which is not expensive by today's standards. , you want perfect, then you would pay double and there would be zero market. Other than the condensation issue, which you wont fix, I am not sure what changes could be made. They already use modern materials, the latest proven solar, fabrics are updated, you can like I did get smooth sides, LED lighting etc. Heck, motorhomes are still being built with wood frames and stapled together. I get what you are saying, just don't really see that there is a lot to change.