85_Ranger4x4
Well-known member
I know but before they came out it was the same hash and rehash about things people didn't know anything about because the vehicles barely existed yet.
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good theory as to how it missed the mark.
- Thread starter zimm
- Start date
I know but before they came out it was the same hash and rehash about things people didn't know anything about because the vehicles barely existed yet.
nickw
Adventurer
A year before they came out we knew about axles, engine, trans and Tcase....enough to take an educated pass at how it would do in the real world, we had Ford engineers talking about those items and the specs were readily available. When I see Ford is dropping in the same rear axle, sim front axle and the engine and trans from the F150 / Ranger it gives me a high degree of confidence.
The chatter is happening on the Toyota forums already with the LC250/GX550, dissecting parts #'s, photo interpretation, platforms similarities, rumors, etc.
85_Ranger4x4
Well-known member
Pretty much the same drama as the Gren minus product support. 2.3 had problems in the Fiesta ST are they fixed/good enough for a heavier truck, why are they using the new for 2020 Explorer 10R60 trans (and not Ranger/F-150's 10R80) and is it going to work on a heavier offroad truck with more power, is 300hp enough for 35's with 4.70 gearing, how similar is the suspension/drivetrain to the ranger, why so small, why so big, why low payload, why low tow rating, why small fuel tank blah blah blah. And then they would get into what all was different between the different trim packages and how interchangeable parts might be between them. Nobody had any real answers so they would just echo it off each other and get mad because short of actually get a vehicle there was no real way to find out.
Ford's easy cop out for everything was that it is based on the next gen Ranger.
And when the Bronco buzz really started the summer of 2020 with the unveiling, the Ranger was just starting to become somewhat common. They were slow getting the line up to speed and then had to shut down to reset it to also run the Bronco on the same line right as Covid set in. There were still a lot of unknowns about how the Ranger was going to hold up so it wasn't really super documented as a solid reference.
I don't think they could release enough data to satisfy enthusiasts for an enthusiast vehicle if they wanted to...
nickw
Adventurer
Some data is better than none.
There will always be moaning - but I don't think anybody doubted the parts would stand up to abuse, I didn't. If somebody did doubt that, you saw somebody else post up the axle specs or show other vehicle it was used as a counterpoint.
People seem to think I'm the bad guy for asking - I have not made judgement, just pointing out my observations and concerns which seem to be triggering....
utherjorge
Observer
But there are actual concerns with Broncos, and the EcoBoom, etc. It's not a full disaster by any means, but each time I go to a group meeting, dudes with Broncos will give you the list of 20 known problems and then explain them all away like, well, "this is Bronco life..."
If they say so.
calicamper
Expedition Leader
Sounds like one Jeep owner at the gas pump 😆😆. If he had more time 20 problems would be 5x that
MontySquareo
Active member
I'd trust a bmw drivetrain with the rest of the vehicle being cobbled together by someone who knows what they're doing before i trusted anything built by ford in the last 30 years
85_Ranger4x4
Well-known member
FWIW we have really liked ours.
I only mentioned the Bronco because the speculation and guessing of the Grenadier reminds me of the similar situation when we were waiting for the Bronco to get released.
utherjorge
Observer
Fair enough. Just saying, ad I know the build up was a thing...that it's not quite Subie-level or Wrangler-level cult behavior, but definitely already at the 4runner level.
plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
Are they going to fix the steering on the bronco- seems like a weak point
utherjorge
Observer
lol thank you for that significant contribution
SkiWill
Well-known member
For everyone that I offended, I apologize. I snapped and should have found a more productive way to express my frustration with the response that the Grenadier and its engineering partners are receiving and the lack of respect I perceive is being levied to the incredible effort from engineers and financial backers to give this community a brand new, body on frame, hypoid axle, heavy duty wagon available in the North American market despite the unbelievable regulatory hurdles posed in 2024. The fact that it happened is nothing short of a miracle, and I am frustrated that this community, of all communities, does not adequately appreciate the effort that went into making this happen and selecting truly robust parts and partners in my opinion. I do not own a Grenadier or stock in Ineos, but I have brought new products to market and I think this effort is largely under appreciated by a substantial margin.
For me, I don't see how the G wagon, engineered, designed, and constructed by Magna Steyr can be one of the gold standards in overlanding, and at the same time, the Ineos Grenadier, also designed and engineered by Magna Steyr and weighing 500 lbs more than either a G wagon or 76 series Land Cruiser is guilty until proven innocent. To me, both things cannot simultaneously be true. Since the G wagon is clearly proven, particularly the G461 series, the Grenadier being even HEAVIER, is clearly not a light duty toy by any standard of deductive logic.
The new vehicles will prove their worth or fail, though mechanical failure seems to be a very low probabilistic outcome based on the engineering team that brought the vehicle to fruition. If it turns out to be a total dud with wheels falling off, wiring catching fire, thrown con rods through blocks, and snapped frames, then bring me a crow and with enough Sriracha, I'll eat it. But, I'm confident it won't be necessary.
Also, due to improvements in metallurgy, manufacturing, and materials science, the metrics that may have previously been indicative of strength do not linearly translate to today. Everything is far more complicated from heat treating, alloys, machining, materials science, forming, etc. than in days of yore, and I don't think this complexity gets the appreciation it deserves.
There are real issues with the Grenadier such as how exactly service and warranty will work, the cost of a low production 6,000 lb vehicle will inherently be high if for no other reason than the $/lb basis of materials and meeting 2024 regulations, the lack of range for my personal application, etc. However, since there are not millions in use having logged millions of miles, there is no data on the long term dependability so we can only look at probability forecasting. With Magna in the lead supported by Carraro, ZF, etc. the most probabilistic outcome is that the thing is a brick lavatory with a motor that has higher than average maintenance costs, but will not suffer from rotating assembly failures. If that's not good enough, then just wait and see.
In the meantime, I'm off to Mexico to not worry about engineering. Hopefully by the time I get back someone will be offering a fuel tank large enough for a comfortable 450 mile range. Or perhaps I should hope they don't. It would certainly be easier on my cheque book if this thing doesn't meet my range requirements. And, again, I'm not interested in bolting rotopax to every surface to get that range.
For me, I don't see how the G wagon, engineered, designed, and constructed by Magna Steyr can be one of the gold standards in overlanding, and at the same time, the Ineos Grenadier, also designed and engineered by Magna Steyr and weighing 500 lbs more than either a G wagon or 76 series Land Cruiser is guilty until proven innocent. To me, both things cannot simultaneously be true. Since the G wagon is clearly proven, particularly the G461 series, the Grenadier being even HEAVIER, is clearly not a light duty toy by any standard of deductive logic.
The new vehicles will prove their worth or fail, though mechanical failure seems to be a very low probabilistic outcome based on the engineering team that brought the vehicle to fruition. If it turns out to be a total dud with wheels falling off, wiring catching fire, thrown con rods through blocks, and snapped frames, then bring me a crow and with enough Sriracha, I'll eat it. But, I'm confident it won't be necessary.
Also, due to improvements in metallurgy, manufacturing, and materials science, the metrics that may have previously been indicative of strength do not linearly translate to today. Everything is far more complicated from heat treating, alloys, machining, materials science, forming, etc. than in days of yore, and I don't think this complexity gets the appreciation it deserves.
There are real issues with the Grenadier such as how exactly service and warranty will work, the cost of a low production 6,000 lb vehicle will inherently be high if for no other reason than the $/lb basis of materials and meeting 2024 regulations, the lack of range for my personal application, etc. However, since there are not millions in use having logged millions of miles, there is no data on the long term dependability so we can only look at probability forecasting. With Magna in the lead supported by Carraro, ZF, etc. the most probabilistic outcome is that the thing is a brick lavatory with a motor that has higher than average maintenance costs, but will not suffer from rotating assembly failures. If that's not good enough, then just wait and see.
In the meantime, I'm off to Mexico to not worry about engineering. Hopefully by the time I get back someone will be offering a fuel tank large enough for a comfortable 450 mile range. Or perhaps I should hope they don't. It would certainly be easier on my cheque book if this thing doesn't meet my range requirements. And, again, I'm not interested in bolting rotopax to every surface to get that range.
Highlander
The Strong, Silent Type
Guys, do you know what Lindy Effect is?
If X survives Y years, it can, statistically, survive twice as many later.
If the IG survives 5 years it will survive 5 more years. And then maybe even 20 years and later 40 years...
Longer it stays longer it will remain.
In 5 years the Ineos will have huge data collected. if they make correct adjustment and decisions and will listen to customers (to a degree) they will have a success.
I know a guy who has one and he loves it. It's his hunting rig. He says it's not the most comfortable SUV he ever had but it the best built one.
If X survives Y years, it can, statistically, survive twice as many later.
If the IG survives 5 years it will survive 5 more years. And then maybe even 20 years and later 40 years...
Longer it stays longer it will remain.
In 5 years the Ineos will have huge data collected. if they make correct adjustment and decisions and will listen to customers (to a degree) they will have a success.
I know a guy who has one and he loves it. It's his hunting rig. He says it's not the most comfortable SUV he ever had but it the best built one.
plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
How do you determine best built after a month or so? It’s like those jd power awards for “initial quality”.