GWNF again

[DiscoD]

The local, and not so local, OHV, Horse, and MTN Bike clubs work hard to keep their trails open. It's hard, though. I spent a lot of my own money and time on this project. Here is a copy/paste of what was involved:

It went pretty good. At one location, we were able to cut and drag a big log in to block the top side of one problem area.

We drug the log down the road a bit, and then pulled it into place using a strap on one end and a winch on the other.

In the end, it did a good job of blocking this area. We also collected a tire and a bag of trash for this area.

We fully understand that someone can just cut this out of the way. But hopefully, with Spring time coming and vegetation starting to take root, it will stay there long enough to do something good.

In another area, we pulled in more down trees and Hemlock top that have fallen out to cover the trail. There was also a down tree hung up in some other trees as you can see in the picture. I tried to pull this tree down, but it was not happening. So, we cut a 8' log off the bottom. This gave us another log to plant in the way of the trail, but it also moved this obstacle over about 15' so they could not go around what we just did.

We also blocked one other trail before you get to the Deer Garden. Sorry, no pics.

Then we took a break for lunch

After lunch, we cleaned the camp-site area behind the "Deer Garden" then headed back North to clean-up another camp area. Afterwords, we called it quits and set up camp.

We started off dinner with some bacon wrapped scallops.

And finished up with some rainbow trout and potato's.

It got down to about 23-degrees that night, but it was not too bad. With the fire rolling, if felt pretty good.

I filled out the VA4WDA land use work sheet for ROAV for the Switzer Dam area. I also sent Mark Healey an e-mail to explain what we did. He would like me to extend his thanks for everyones efforts Saturday.

Once Mark and his crew are done with the Deer Garden, I post a thread and see about getting some guys together to plant these trees.

 

[DiscoD]

....

We drove up to Switzer today and planted the trees. On the way up, we visited the area everyone worked on last trip. Everything we did is still in place! In fact, it looks awesome.

Here is what we did back in March:

After the forest service did their thing, it now looks like this:

You're not getting over these logs unless you've got some real tires on your truck. Also, now with all the dirt and rocks packed around the logs, it would be VERY diffucult to cut the logs out.

The Deer garden did look like this:

It now looks like this:

The muds hold were like this:

Now they look like this:

The Crimora, VA tree farm donated the 100 White Pines for us to plant.

 

[DiscoD]

....

When I stopped at the Turner Ashby High School to pick up the planting tools, the FFA department donated 10 more trees; 5 White Oak, and 5 Pin Oaks.

The forest service also built a kiosk for signage. I think it looks really good.

They also tank-trapped the area:

Planting all 110 trees took about 1.5 hours for the two of us. Once we were done, we cleaned a camp site next to the Deer Garden:

I think the forest service did a good job here. Time will tell if the efforts pay off.​

 

[DiscoD]

Here is another thread of stuff going on in the area. http://sv4w.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1236803818

As you can see, we're trying to help the community. But when people do dumb ******** like this:

....it really gets me hot.

Here is your *****ng sign.

 

[MarcFJ60]

I don't see how being insulting is helpful. What ever happen to "hey man just so you know that spot is not legal"? Instead some people fell they need to preach and belittle others.

X2

Although I don't think the first post alerting the OP to the legality was insulting, what followed was.

I am hoping to get out to GWNF on either my 80 or my motorcycle and am certain I would not have known what was legal unless it is marked. It is nice to know some people here are quite approachable on the subject. Others have just made it that much more difficult to ask for help. I guess I'm one of the stupid/ignorant/clueless/etc people. But as dumb as I am, I know I would ask for help if I knew I could find friendly and helpful answers. If I'm going to be belittled, I'd just assume go out and try to figure it out myself (and likely end up driving where I shouldn't).

 

[DiscoD]

I am hoping to get out to GWNF on either my 80 or my motorcycle and am certain I would not have known what was legal unless it is marked. It is nice to know some people here are quite approachable on the subject. Others have just made it that much more difficult to ask for help. I guess I'm one of the stupid/ignorant/clueless/etc people. But as dumb as I am, I know I would ask for help if I knew I could find friendly and helpful answers. If I'm going to be belittled, I'd just assume go out and try to figure it out myself (and likely end up driving where I shouldn't).

Ignorance is not the law.

"No officer, I did not know my daily fish limit was 6. There was no sign"

 

[Roverhound]

It's the attitude I see in this thread that got Tellico closed.
If it doesn't look legal, it's not. If you're not sure, don't do it.
One of the first things they teach you in drivers ed is ," Ignorance is not innocence." This pertains to all laws.
Come on guys, we all know that it is not legal to drive through rivers.
If you don't have information about an area, call someone who does. The forest service in this area is very helpful in this regard.
You can contact Dan or I through this site. You can ask for information from the Shenandoah Valley 4 Wheelers. http://virginia4x4.org/
I constantly correct and educate people I meet up in the mountains, whether I'm fishing or wheeling.
I tell you what, all of you that are using the "I didn't know" defense, keep an eye on the SV4W web site. Join us for a trail clean up or maintenance. We always welcome the help and it's a great way to learn what is legal and what is not
This would be your chance to give something back.
Remember, when they close a trail because of you, they close it for me too.

 

[Backwoods Rambler]

That is an illegal river crossing. There is only one place to cross the river and that wasn't it. I trout fish in that pool regularly........ I don't want to loose access to this trail because thoughtless people can't keep from driving through the river.

I was not being insultful.

If that's not an insult, I don't know what is....

Driving through rivers is one thing, everyone on the East coast knows that driving in rivers is illegal.

I wouldn't have known that if I would have come to visit the east coast??

You can't fix stupid.

This is just not necessary

Don't be ignorant, driving through the river is illegal. I don't care what state you're in.

Driving across or through a river is illegal no matter what state your in? You might want think about what your saying. I've been on many trails where river crossings are not only legal, but they are the trail. We even have a trail here, where the river bed is the trail for a awhile.

http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=17 <- read the first sentence.

You've kind of struck a sore subject with me and I'll try to explain why and how......

So, it being a sore subject for you, justifies belitting and insulting the OP? That's no way to get your message across. After the first insult, nobody cares what your position is anymore....

The Off-Camber Crawlers tried to help and adopted the trail.....Your comments about "No Signs" really pisses me off. That's about the most rookie statement you ever hear from someone who does not want to pay attention to the law or abide by the Thread Lightly rule.

There is probably no sign in your front yard saying I can't drive through it. Does that mean it's okay to drive through your yard? Maybe go really fast and kick up some mud or something? Do you have a sign that says I can't take dump in your swimming pool?

So you must stop at every intersection that you come across, even if there's no stop sign then?

If you feel so strongly about it, why don't you make some signs to put on this trail? I don't see how anyone could decern a legal trail from an illegal trail in the photos that have been posted.

But seriously, dude, does this honestly look like a designated stream crossing?......But come on, man, use some common sense next time you're in the area.

It does in fact look like many of the designated stream crossing I've seen posted on this and other forums and it sounds like he was using common sense (sound practical judgement), but apparently that wasn't good enough to prevent you from slinging insults at him like he just pissed in your flower bed. Instead, you would expect that he familarizes himself with all of the local laws, proper trail routes & all current social and political disputes prior heading into the woods where clearly sound practical judgment won't keep you from taking the wrong path.

Here is another thread of stuff going on in the area. ......As you can see, we're trying to help the community. But when people do dumb ******** like this....it really gets me hot.

Here is your *****ng sign.

Serioulsly, if it's that sensative of an issue, there really should be some signage in the area to make things clear.

I can't believe the responses you guys are giving him for this post. I really can be handled with a bit more courtesy.

 

[Backwoods Rambler]

You can contact Dan or I through this site.

After the verbal abuse handed out in this thread, why would anyone contact either of you?

 

[02TahoeMD]

Just to weigh in here, as an East Coaster that has visited GWNF -

I have never, ever heard of a "law" against driving in a river, I have lived here in MD all my adult life. And traveled up and down the Eastern Seaboard from ME to FL without hearing of this....law. As a matter of fact, there is a road here in my county that actually drives THROUGH a creek. Not across it. The county deemed the road not be worthy of a bridge over the creek years ago and it has never been a problem. The creek runs deep enough at times that I actually had water going over the hood of a Crown Vic when crossing. If you didnt keep a bow wave going, your car was in serious trouble.


I also have visited that same place on the Dry River as presented by Clark. There are no signs indicating anything there, as for what to do and what not to do. And if I recall correctly, you do have to drive in the river about 50 yards to reach the other half of one of the trails. I drove to this trail and discovered the trail only went about 2/10 of a mile beyond the crossing, so I turned around and came back. When I turned around there were a couple of VA tagged lifted trucks sitting back there, with their drivers off hiking, or hunting, or fishing. I would only presume these to be locals that know the area, and they had to drive in the river to get to that spot. If the locals are doing it, why on earth are you throwing a visitor under the bus for doing so???? And while airing back up to get on the highway one of the trucks drove up the river and left, so I know they were using it as part of the trail.

So, to the detractors here I find your comments to be a bit...irritating. If you are locals, and expect certain behavior at the Dry River crossing, then post signs along with clear trail markings. Otherwise, jumping the case of someone who is bringing tourism dollars to your region is not really that wise. I do practice tread lightly and find your attack on Clark to be pretty unfair.

Oh, and kudos to Backwoods Rambler, your post was right on the money.

 

[MarcFJ60]

Ignorance is not the law.

"No officer, I did not know my daily fish limit was 6. There was no sign"

And if you get pulled over for speeding I guess it is okay for the cop to berate you and call you an idiot. Some people actually think the cop should respectfully inform you of the law with or without a ticket. But I guess those people are stupid as well.

Over ten years in law enforcement and I finally realize I've been doing it wrong all along.

The OP stated he didn't know it was illegal and was willing to change. The issue after that was whether one should be respectful in informing somebody about the law. We apparently disagree.

 

[jim65wagon]

I have to agree with Backwoods and 02Tahoe; while not local I do get out to GWNF (not just Harrisonburg area) frequently. Dry River has been used/abused as a "trail" for so long that to stand on the riverbank you cannot tell what is the legal and proper path to take. It really does need signs to designate legal from illegal.

Apart from that I really appreciate SV4WDs efforts to clean up, fix, plant trees, and maintain the place. We haul out more garbage than we produce every time we go out on a camping trip. Now if we can just talk everyone into not throwing out their garbage in the forest (whether it be a pop bottle or a refrigerator) the world would be a better place.

BTW, and this leads me to a pet peeve of mine....I often read about "visitors, outsiders, or out-of-staters" who come into the forest (and this is everywhere not just GWNF) and use it as a dumping ground...tires, stoves, carpet, general bags of garbage....this is not outsiders (for the most part) this is local people. If I need to dump a fridge I'm not hauling it to the next state, or even 3 hours away to the forest. It's going to the closest landfill possible. Everyone needs to be responsible not just you and me...everyone.


Oh and Thanks Clark, it was a nice post with good photos....

 

[Clark White]

The trail I crossed to does not go very far, but you can NOT tell that from the far bank. Regardless, we drive to that island to camp because it does not go through and therefore is quite tranquil. We do not drive off into the black berry patch, we camp in the rocks on the side of the river. I'm not sure how driving that road hurts the berry patch, and infact I might add that it is a perfect two track, so NO ONE would have any indication it is not a legal road. Contrary to what you guys are implying, I did NOT blaze my own trail. Now that I know it is illegal, I will not cross there again. But the reason I will not cross there is because I don't want that area closed down, not because you have insulted me or because I think it was harmful to the environment.

I am, in fact, and well trained and very experienced driver. Where I chose to cross was carefully considered BEFORE crossing. When looking at that spot, I used many many years of off road experience (not teenage wheeling experience, but professional driving experience in far away lands doing the things in the places this forum is based on). Obviously my choice is not the most common, but if it were not a local hot topic for which I was not aware of, my choice would be perfectly reasonable. I did not blaze a new train in any way shape or form. Just for the record, the first people I saw cross there, and who gave me the idea, was YOUR LOCAL JEEP CLUB. That does not make it legal, but no officer would ticket given such circumstances, and if they did it would not hold up in court. All your examples of driving through my lawn and such are clearly different circumstances. Everyone DOES know that's illegal. Driving from a road, across a firm rocky river crossing, to a perfect two track is a dream come true in most parts of the world, not something that is illegal.

Lets look at the tread lightly info you posted (for which I am quite familiar and tout to others quite often):
* Avoid running over young trees, shrubs and grasses -- this damages and kills them.
* Stay off soft, wet trails and trails already badly rutted.
* Ford streams only at designated crossings.
* Stay on designated routes -- resist the urge to pioneer a new trail or switchback.
* Do not chase or intentionally disturb wildlife.
* Take your litter with you when you leave the national forest.
* Obey closures and regulatory signs.
* Travel at safe and reasonable speeds.

*I did not run over a single plant, so I followed that one.
*Where I crossed was not soft or badly rutted, so I followed that one.
*I chose that spot because I had reconnoitered it VERY thoroughly, decided I was not going to hurt anything by crossing there and that I would NOT be leaving the trail, and that there was in fact no obvious crossing that would be mandated to use, so I feel pretty good about that one.
*I certainly did not chase or intentionally disturb the wild life, so I followed that one.
*I packed out my trash, as well as plenty of others trash, so I more then followed that one.
*That area is not closed, and there are no regulatory signs to follow.
*I was going about 3-5mph, so I was plenty safe and at a reasonable speed.

I do not say there are no signs to imply that if there isn't a sign saying no, anything and everything is fair game. As I mentioned, I have extensive off road experience and training, and I used that knowledge to determine that that was a perfectly acceptable crossing. Given that from an environmental aspect that crossing is just as good as the ones down stream, and it is NOT pioneering a new or destructive route, a sign is the only way to know you are not allowed to go that way. While you may never think of taking a deep crossing like that, in most of the world deep crossings are the only option, therefore I have LOTS of knowledge doing it and it is second nature to me, not something new/crazy/stupid.

The legality IN THAT SPECIFIC AREA is a wholly different subject. Given that I now know my crossing was illegal, I apologize and will clearly cross further down. I do not wish to give ammo to those wishing to close the area and try to follow the laws where ever I am. As far as that road I crossed to not being a road....are you crazy??? As mentioned, IT IS A PERFECT TWO TRACK. If that road is closed, for that closure to be enforceable it MUST BE MARKED. That IS a road (not one of the areas you showed that had been torn up) whether YOU want it to be there or not.

Again, I apologize for making an illegal crossing and will always cross further down in the future, but I do not feel my judgment was in error nor do I feel bad for having done it. As others have mentioned, in most of the rest of the world that would be a perfectly acceptable crossing, and in many places better then you would ever hope to find.

Clark

 

[rctr03]

clark,

i have worked with gregg jackson (the virginina land use officer for the virginina four wheel drive association) for the past three years as part of our earth day clean up of all of the areas mentioned. i would be happy to show you around next time you are in the area.

 

[Clark White]

Oh and Thanks Clark, it was a nice post with good photos....

Thanks Jim! That whole area is beautiful and a blast to explore both on foot and by vehicle.

Despite the insults thrown my way, I would still like to thank Roverhound and DiscoD for their hard work cleaning that area up. I don't pretend to have done anywhere near that kind of work up there to better the situation and am very impressed with the time and effort put forth to clean it up. I drove past that area that was planted, trapped, and signed, and the first thing to cross my mind was, "damn, someone put in a lot of work to clean that up." I have done many trail cleanups elsewhere and know how much work that takes.

Thanks!
Clark